Navani Foreshadowing

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Navani unified scholars and others into a unit to create the flying thing. She kept her team together and convinced Raboniel of her and her team's value long enough to stay alive. She worked together with her enemy toward a common cause. She helped the Sibling discover their missing tones, giving the Sibling the ability to create the Bond with her. When in a position to unify, she has always done so. Rhythm of War starts with her leading a team of cooks, servers, housekeepers and soldiers to put on a huge party that keeps getting bigger by the minute.

She's not in the same position to show her unifying nature that Dalinar is, but go through every scene she's in it shows her working to bring people together toward a common cause. Every single one.

Try it; look through her scenes. If the definition of Bondsmith is a unifier, she's as good an example as any.

Being in charge isn't unifying.

Kaladin didn't unify Bridge four because he was in charge, he unified them by making them want to be there, making them care about each other, that is unity, not telling people what to do.

[Leuthie]

Just now, Frustration said:

Being in charge isn't unifying.

Kaladin didn't unify Bridge four because he was in charge, he unified them by making them want to be there, making them care about each other, that is unity, not telling people what to do.

Good point. You're totally right. She doesn't get credit for the things she brought people together to create because she just brought them together. Yet all she did was tell them what to do. So did she just get people to implement her ideas by telling them what to do (in which case, she'd get credit for the creation of those things as her telling them what to do resulted in their creation), or did she unify a group of minds to create these things (in which case she doesn't deserve credit, but she was a unifier)?

Challenge: Find me a scene in ROW where Navani wasn't bringing people together to achieve common goals. Find me a scene where she was leading a group and "telling people what to do".

[Aspiring Writer]

6 hours ago, Leuthie said:

(BTW, I'm not often vocal about feminism, but giving the dead husband credit for a woman's discovery is just completely messed up, especially when you have no idea how he obtained the things he had or whether or not he actually knew what they were)

Seeing as his point didn't have anything to do with gender, don't bring it up. Gavilar is the one to discover anti-light first, how, we don't know, but he is the first (Unless the shards know about their anti-tones, which I believe is hinted with Odium trying to convince Raboniel to find it, but either way, he is the first Rosharon, which is still impressive.) Navani does get credit for learning the method to creating it and then spreading that knowledge, which is impressive and I feel would give her some right to call herself a scholar, she is clearly adept at experimenting and connecting data, I don't see why she wouldn't be considered one just because she focuses more on guiding scholars then participating with them.

 

6 hours ago, Leuthie said:

She's not. She's 1st Ideal. She's worthy of holding Stormlight and starting the process. Maybe she'll be the first example of a Radiant who never makes it past 1st Ideal because she's so unworthy?

This is the only way it would acceptable after the sibling was basically given the choice bond her or die.

 

26 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Navani unified scholars and others into a unit to create the flying thing. She kept her team together and convinced Raboniel of her and her team's value long enough to stay alive. She worked together with her enemy toward a common cause. She helped the Sibling discover their missing tones, giving the Sibling the ability to create the Bond with her. When in a position to unify, she has always done so. Rhythm of War starts with her leading a team of cooks, servers, housekeepers and soldiers to put on a huge party that keeps getting bigger by the minute.

She's not in the same position to show her unifying nature that Dalinar is, but go through every scene she's in it shows her working to bring people together toward a common cause. Every single one.

Try it. If the definition of Bondsmith is a unifier, she's as good an example as any.

Leading and unifying are not the same thing, while they may share similarities. Dalinar has been trying to unify forces that would not normally cooperate and needs constant effort to keep together and not shatter. Navani, while a great leader, does not unify anyone that wouldn't have worked together. She guides the scholars, but they would be working together regardless, though perhaps less productively with someone else in charge. She orders the generals, but they would been working to launch a counterattack regardless, she simply gives them direction, not something small, but not really unifying.

the thing that needs to be clarified is that she isn't unworthy in general, but she isn't worthy of being a bondsmith, at least no more than any of the other leaders on the Council. To make clear what I'm saying, Szeth is incredibly worthy of a Highspren, he fits the order perfectly, but he is not worthy of, let's say, an Honorspren. Navani does not fit that order. She fits other orders, Elsecallers being the first to come to mind, but not Bondsmith.

Edit: I hate myself. So there is one moment where she does do what I say she doesn't and that's with the two members of the guild who at first refuse to share knowledge of how to transfer stormlight until she manages to convince one of them. The moment is small, but still there and should be taken into account. Not sure if that's enough, but it's definitely a point in her favor.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Good point. You're totally right. She doesn't get credit for the things she brought people together to create because she just brought them together. Yet all she did was tell them what to do. So did she just get people to implement her ideas by telling them what to do (in which case, she'd get credit for the creation of those things as her telling them what to do resulted in their creation), or did she unify a group of minds to create these things (in which case she doesn't deserve credit, but she was a unifier)?

Challenge: Find me a scene in ROW where Navani wasn't bringing people together to achieve common goals. Find me a scene where she was leading a group and "telling people what to do".

You're moving the goalpost she was in charge, not through any merit of her own, she just had deep pockets, so no she does not get credit, (except for Warlight) and she was not a unifier.

As for a scene try the prolouge, she's telling people what to do, and who is she unifying? No one, everyone was already on the same team, and would have been without her.

 

Now let's look at Dalinar, he unified the Nations who have been at war with each other for years, and does it without paying, bribing, threatening concuring or other uses of Coersion, that is the mark of a Bondsmith.

[Lanaya]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You're moving the goalpost she was in charge, not through any merit of her own, she just had deep pockets, so no she does not get credit, (except for Warlight) and she was not a unifier.

As for a scene try the prolouge, she's telling people what to do, and who is she unifying? No one, everyone was already on the same team, and would have been without her.

 

Now let's look at Dalinar, he unified the Nations who have been at war with each other for years, and does it without paying, bribing, threatening concuring or other uses of Coersion, that is the mark of a Bondsmith.

I accept that she is in charge because of who she married but that doesn't mean she has to do a good job. Aesudan/Elhokar are prime examples of bad rulers although Elhokar was getting better at the end. I don't want you to look at this and try to shift the conversation towards Elhokar/Aesudan, we just have to agree that someone in charge doesn't have to be good. This is my prime argument for Navani--> She was 'gifted' her rule but did a great job with it and here is why (most are copy pasted from coppermind):

-She is the prime reason the dawnchant was translated - she made a connection and got her team of scholars to decipher it

-'Navani helped Dalinar build their first plan for unification and strength of the crown. They decided to attack on different fronts: economical (changes to the manner of collection and distribution of gemhearts on the Shattered Plains), fear (Adolin would duel to earn Shardblades) and political (Dalinar and Navani would try to persuade the benefits of a unified Alethkar).[33] It is clear she suggested having allies that would unite based on loyalty and not fear' - taken directly from coppermind

-'On the way to battle, Navani became close to Shallan and her work. Confirming she would not take the project from her, but would participate and get her scholars to work for her as well '-  She helped discover Urithiru

-'Once at Urithiru, she continued to transcribe the visions in much more detail now that Dalinar could replay them at will. After Odium manifested on one vision, he decided his next action would be to unite all of Roshar and asked Navani to help him. He believed that his tenacity and her brilliance together would convince the other kingdoms to join with them' - Dalinar asks for Navani's help so they can reunite Roshar

-She led the first meeting of all the monarchs and wanted it to succeed

-She entrusted the mission to explore Aimia to Rysn and her crew and sent along a few scholars + windrunners

-Engineered/designed the fourth bridge with her team

I can keep going but a lot of the ROW stuff has been covered. One look at the coppermind and it shows you how much of a hand she has in bringing people together or giving them the direction they need to get a positive result.

[Leuthie]

10 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

I accept that she is in charge because of who she married but that doesn't mean she has to do a good job. Aesudan/Elhokar are prime examples of bad rulers although Elhokar was getting better at the end. I don't want you to look at this and try to shift the conversation towards Elhokar/Aesudan, we just have to agree that someone in charge doesn't have to be good. This is my prime argument for Navani--> She was 'gifted' her rule but did a great job with it and here is why (most are copy pasted from coppermind):

...

Thank you. Didn't have time to comb through the book. Every scene she's in she's helping Dalinar, keeping things that should fall apart from doing so, getting more out of others than they would be able to get out of themselves, etc. She's not the prime example of Bondsmith, but saying she's completely unworthy is pure tripe.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Lanaya said:

I accept that she is in charge because of who she married but that doesn't mean she has to do a good job. Aesudan/Elhokar are prime examples of bad rulers although Elhokar was getting better at the end. I don't want you to look at this and try to shift the conversation towards Elhokar/Aesudan, we just have to agree that someone in charge doesn't have to be good. This is my prime argument for Navani--> She was 'gifted' her rule but did a great job with it and here is why (most are copy pasted from coppermind):

-She is the prime reason the dawnchant was translated - she made a connection and got her team of scholars to decipher it

-'Navani helped Dalinar build their first plan for unification and strength of the crown. They decided to attack on different fronts: economical (changes to the manner of collection and distribution of gemhearts on the Shattered Plains), fear (Adolin would duel to earn Shardblades) and political (Dalinar and Navani would try to persuade the benefits of a unified Alethkar).[33] It is clear she suggested having allies that would unite based on loyalty and not fear' - taken directly from coppermind

-'On the way to battle, Navani became close to Shallan and her work. Confirming she would not take the project from her, but would participate and get her scholars to work for her as well '-  She helped discover Urithiru

-'Once at Urithiru, she continued to transcribe the visions in much more detail now that Dalinar could replay them at will. After Odium manifested on one vision, he decided his next action would be to unite all of Roshar and asked Navani to help him. He believed that his tenacity and her brilliance together would convince the other kingdoms to join with them' - Dalinar asks for Navani's help so they can reunite Roshar

-She led the first meeting of all the monarchs and wanted it to succeed

-She entrusted the mission to explore Aimia to Rysn and her crew and sent along a few scholars + windrunners

-Engineered/designed the fourth bridge with her team

I can keep going but a lot of the ROW stuff has been covered. One look at the coppermind and it shows you how much of a hand she has in bringing people together or giving them the direction they need to get a positive result.

Those are examples of her being a leader, yes, we're not denying that she is an incredible leader, but that's not what we're arguing. We're saying that she doesn't do anything that shows her being a unifier, and being a leader, while a part of being a unifier, is not enough and does not make her stand out amongst people like Queen Fen, who is also an excellent leader.

 

54 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Thank you. Didn't have time to comb through the book. Every scene she's in she's helping Dalinar, keeping things that should fall apart from doing so, getting more out of others than they would be able to get out of themselves, etc. She's not the prime example of Bondsmith, but saying she's completely unworthy is pure tripe.

We're not saying she's completely unworthy, she is just no more worthy than plenty of other people we've seen with our understanding of what a Bondsmith is supposed to be. Is she the worst candidate? No. But not being the worst does not mean she's a good choice.

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We're not saying she's completely unworthy, she is just no more worthy than plenty of other people we've seen with our understanding of what a Bondsmith is supposed to be. Is she the worst candidate? No. But not being the worst does not mean she's a good choice.

I think Navani has a very different way of unifying than Dalinar does, and since he was our first example of Bondsmith that affects how people perceive Bondsmiths should act. Dalinar in effect binds people through arguments, he binds disparate groups together by giving them same goal.

(EDIT: Also, Dalinar mostly failed in uniting before he bonded Stormfather at the end of WoR, he only convinced 4 out of 10 highprinces to join him on expedition to center of Shattered plains. All his accomplishments in uniting came after he became Bondsmith.)

Navani, however, does not act that way. Instead what she does is smooth interactions of disparate groups so that they can work together effectively, or at all. She manages the the resources so others can focus on their strengths, she puts together disparate teams of scholars that would normally not talk together etc. She even manages to effectively work with the enemy forces (for good and ill). And she does figures out how to merge Stormlight and Voidlight, something others thought impossible. In effect, she acts very much like emulsifier she talks about when discovering Warlight. She does not tie things together like Dalinar does, she merges them through smoothing out the differences.

If Daliner is the one who puts the organization together, Navani is the one that makes sure it works smoothly and effectively.

Seeing how different the individual Bondsmith spren are, I think it isn't reasonable to expect all Bondsmith to fulfill their Ideal of unity in the same way.

And while I agree that others seem to show similar qualities, she was the one in the right place at the right time and most importantly, without her Sibling would not recover his ability to create Towerlight. People usually mention Rlain as a candidate, but he demonstrates unifying quality only once, when he convinces Singers and humans to help carry Radiants to safety, and to that he 'channels Teft' so it is not something that comes naturally to him.

I think Rlain actuallly fit corrupted Truthwatchers almost perfectly. Like Renarin he is someone caught between two world, Renarin between expectations and desires, Rlain between human and singers, and neither feels they properly fit with either anymore.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

You're moving the goalpost she was in charge, not through any merit of her own, she just had deep pockets, so no she does not get credit, (except for Warlight) and she was not a unifier.

I think she should get at least some credit for the anti-light. The only knowledge she worked off is that she saw odd sphere, and that the light in the odd-sphere exploded when in touch with Stormlight. That is not really all that much to go on. And yes, she built on pre-existing knowledge of how light reacts to sounds, but presumably so did whoever discovered it for Gavilar, working off pre-existing knowledge and figuring out something new is how science works.

In history we have examples of things being discovered nearly independently, in math you have Leibniz-Newton controversy, asking who discovered calculus first and who should get credit. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz–Newton_calculus_controversy) Many times some things were rediscovered nearly independently later, and we usually credit the person that managed to spread the knowledge and see the use, which in this case would be Navani as Gavilar's organization did not seem inclined to share their discoveries and we do not know if they realized what anti-stormlight would do.

Edited April 8, 2021 by therunner
Dalinar argument extended

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Lanaya said:

I accept that she is in charge because of who she married but that doesn't mean she has to do a good job. Aesudan/Elhokar are prime examples of bad rulers although Elhokar was getting better at the end. I don't want you to look at this and try to shift the conversation towards Elhokar/Aesudan, we just have to agree that someone in charge doesn't have to be good. This is my prime argument for Navani--> She was 'gifted' her rule but did a great job with it and here is why (most are copy pasted from coppermind):

-She is the prime reason the dawnchant was translated - she made a connection and got her team of scholars to decipher it

-'Navani helped Dalinar build their first plan for unification and strength of the crown. They decided to attack on different fronts: economical (changes to the manner of collection and distribution of gemhearts on the Shattered Plains), fear (Adolin would duel to earn Shardblades) and political (Dalinar and Navani would try to persuade the benefits of a unified Alethkar).[33] It is clear she suggested having allies that would unite based on loyalty and not fear' - taken directly from coppermind

-'On the way to battle, Navani became close to Shallan and her work. Confirming she would not take the project from her, but would participate and get her scholars to work for her as well '-  She helped discover Urithiru

-'Once at Urithiru, she continued to transcribe the visions in much more detail now that Dalinar could replay them at will. After Odium manifested on one vision, he decided his next action would be to unite all of Roshar and asked Navani to help him. He believed that his tenacity and her brilliance together would convince the other kingdoms to join with them' - Dalinar asks for Navani's help so they can reunite Roshar

-She led the first meeting of all the monarchs and wanted it to succeed

-She entrusted the mission to explore Aimia to Rysn and her crew and sent along a few scholars + windrunners

-Engineered/designed the fourth bridge with her team

I can keep going but a lot of the ROW stuff has been covered. One look at the coppermind and it shows you how much of a hand she has in bringing people together or giving them the direction they need to get a positive result.

Being a leader is the same as being a Unifier, the only times you mention she worked with a preestablished group that would have been on the same team without her.

Also Navani did nothing for discovering Urithiru that was mostly Jasnah.

9 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Thank you. Didn't have time to comb through the book. Every scene she's in she's helping Dalinar, keeping things that should fall apart from doing so, getting more out of others than they would be able to get out of themselves, etc. She's not the prime example of Bondsmith, but saying she's completely unworthy is pure tripe.

Anyone who isn't exemplary is unworthy,

Think about it this way, if I had bondsmith powers I could take your connections to everyone you know, for all intents and purposes I would become you to them, they would have no special connection to you. To even your closest friends and family you would be no more than a stranger they would feel nothing towards you. Your friends wouldn't look twice in your direction, I would uterly and totally replace you in their lives, and there would be nothing you could do about it. Now tell me, who do you think should have that kind of power?

5 hours ago, therunner said:

(EDIT: Also, Dalinar mostly failed in uniting before he bonded Stormfather at the end of WoR, he only convinced 4 out of 10 highprinces to join him on expedition to center of Shattered plains. All his accomplishments in uniting came after he became Bondsmith.)

Journey before Destination, the important thing is that he tried.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Navani, however, does not act that way. Instead what she does is smooth interactions of disparate groups so that they can work together effectively, or at all. She manages the the resources so others can focus on their strengths, she puts together disparate teams of scholars that would normally not talk together etc. She even manages to effectively work with the enemy forces (for good and ill). And she does figures out how to merge Stormlight and Voidlight, something others thought impossible. In effect, she acts very much like emulsifier she talks about when discovering Warlight. She does not tie things together like Dalinar does, she merges them through smoothing out the differences.

When does she manage to get people who wouldn't work together to do so? You can't even say Raboniel since it was Raboniel, not Navani that made that situation work.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

And while I agree that others seem to show similar qualities, she was the one in the right place at the right time and most importantly, without her Sibling would not recover his ability to create Towerlight. People usually mention Rlain as a candidate, but he demonstrates unifying quality only once, when he convinces Singers and humans to help carry Radiants to safety, and to that he 'channels Teft' so it is not something that comes naturally to him.

I think Rlain actuallly fit corrupted Truthwatchers almost perfectly. Like Renarin he is someone caught between two world, Renarin between expectations and desires, Rlain between human and singers, and neither feels they properly fit with either anymore.

Restoring the Siblings Rhythm of LIght isn't good enough, and on Rlain, even if it doesn't come naturally to him he does it, that's the important thing, he tries.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I think she should get at least some credit for the anti-light. The only knowledge she worked off is that she saw odd sphere, and that the light in the odd-sphere exploded when in touch with Stormlight. That is not really all that much to go on. And yes, she built on pre-existing knowledge of how light reacts to sounds, but presumably so did whoever discovered it for Gavilar, working off pre-existing knowledge and figuring out something new is how science works.

In history we have examples of things being discovered nearly independently, in math you have Leibniz-Newton controversy, asking who discovered calculus first and who should get credit. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz–Newton_calculus_controversy) Many times some things were rediscovered nearly independently later, and we usually credit the person that managed to spread the knowledge and see the use, which in this case would be Navani as Gavilar's organization did not seem inclined to share their discoveries and we do not know if they realized what anti-stormlight would do.

She's smart but she didn't discover it, it wasn't even a close thing Gavilar had it almost eight years before she did.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Frustration

[therunner]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Journey before Destination, the important thing is that he tried.

And Navani tries and succeeds in organizing people, yet that is not enough? Importantly, she helped design the plan Dalinar used to try and get Highprinces on his side.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When does she manage to get people who wouldn't work together to do so? You can't even say Raboniel since it was Raboniel, not Navani that made that situation work.

Some artifabrians who do not want to share their knowledge, but that was not my main point.

My point is that Navani's strength is not bringing disparate groups together, it is in making groups work effectively/efficiently. She is the one who spearheaded development of grandbows, worked on the design of painrial, was the one to develop the elevated platforms that she eventually further refined into the Fourth Bridge (also under her leadership). A lot of these principles were known even 8 years ago, but it was her teams under her supervision that created fabrials with real life applications and effectively turned artifabrians into engineers.

If Dalinar is CEO, Navani is COO.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Restoring the Siblings Rhythm of LIght isn't good enough, and on Rlain, even if it doesn't come naturally to him he does it, that's the important thing, he tries.

So Rlain, who did nothing that would help Sibling is more worthy because he once tries to get two different groups to work together? Even though he never once showed any interest in leadership, any organizational skills or anything that would be needed for Bondsmith?

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She's smart but she didn't discover it, it wasn't even a close thing Gavilar had it almost eight years before she did.

She re-discovered it, its not like she was handed a book and just followed instructions. It might have been easier, because she did not have to postulate existence of anti-light, she had an example. However, she most certainly discovered a way to produce it, and she did it effectively alone.

We also have no idea what it took for Gavilar to discover it, or who might have helped him.

 

EDIT: Even looking at the details about Bondsmiths here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424-the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/#e13781) suggests that just 'bringing people together' is not all that Bondsmits are expected to do. For example

Quote

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Quote

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Setting up a government requires a lot more that giving people a common goal, it requires good managerial and organizational skills, both of which Navani demonstrates quite well, in contrast Dalinar struggles with this a bit.

Edited April 8, 2021 by therunner
WoB

[Lanaya]

Lets ask another question to the people that think Navani doesn't unify: Who besides Dalinar has brought more people together than Navani and actually achieved results? Also, we should dismiss the idea that Dalinar united Roshar by himself, he leaned on Navani a lot.

This lady united the tunes of odium+honor - something one of the smartest fused thought impossible.

[Leuthie]

10 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Those are examples of her being a leader, yes, we're not denying that she is an incredible leader, but that's not what we're arguing. We're saying that she doesn't do anything that shows her being a unifier, and being a leader, while a part of being a unifier, is not enough and does not make her stand out amongst people like Queen Fen, who is also an excellent leader.

 

We're not saying she's completely unworthy, she is just no more worthy than plenty of other people we've seen with our understanding of what a Bondsmith is supposed to be. Is she the worst candidate? No. But not being the worst does not mean she's a good choice.

Actually, someone is arguing that she's completely unworthy. You came in with a more measured argument that there are others. There are always others. That's an easy argument to see both sides of. Dalinar wasn't exactly a unifier when he bonded Stormfather. His House stood alone after his best friend turned on him and everyone turned against him because he was considered crazy. He became more worthy over time. With Navani's help.

There are others arguing that she's completely unworthy. Which is wrong.

[Infinity Sliver]

Well this topic took a turn. All i really wanted to show was all the things Gavilar accused her of not been,she kinda ended up achieving.

1. Her not been worthy. I mean,you could say that,but what made Dalinar worthy of been a bondsmith? Didnt he grow into the role? Before that,he was a raving drunk,before that he was a tyrant,look at our boy now,uniting instead of dividing. it was a journey for him,so why cant Navani have that chance as well. Cause if youre saying Navani wasnt worthy,Dalinar sure as hell wasnt. 

2. Her been a scholar. Thats up for debate,but as some people have said,she is a decent scholar and even that is enough. She did observe a phenomena(i forget which anti-light reacted with light),deduced a theory that was outfield and resolved it,even if she had help in the form of Raboniel(who has lived thousands of years,who commended Navani on been a scholar,that should be enough),it's still something she achieved while not actively seeking the end result of anti light,just trying to figure out what happened.

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And Navani tries and succeeds in organizing people, yet that is not enough? Importantly, she helped design the plan Dalinar used to try and get Highprinces on his side.

Who took inititive in that situation? Who started that? Who actually did anything to make it happen? Dalinar

1 hour ago, therunner said:

My point is that Navani's strength is not bringing disparate groups together, it is in making groups work effectively/efficiently. She is the one who spearheaded development of grandbows, worked on the design of painrial, was the one to develop the elevated platforms that she eventually further refined into the Fourth Bridge (also under her leadership). A lot of these principles were known even 8 years ago, but it was her teams under her supervision that created fabrials with real life applications and effectively turned artifabrians into engineers.

If Dalinar is CEO, Navani is COO.

Her patronage of artifabrians is not evidence for being a good Bondsmith

3 hours ago, therunner said:

So Rlain, who did nothing that would help Sibling is more worthy because he once tries to get two different groups to work together? Even though he never once showed any interest in leadership, any organizational skills or anything that would be needed for Bondsmith?

Yes.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

We also have no idea what it took for Gavilar to discover it, or who might have helped him.

As I've said before I don't know if it's Dalinar or someone near him, but whoever it is they get the credit.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

EDIT: Even looking at the details about Bondsmiths here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/424-the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/#e13781) suggests that just 'bringing people together' is not all that Bondsmits are expected to do. For example

Setting up a government requires a lot more that giving people a common goal, it requires good managerial and organizational skills, both of which Navani demonstrates quite well, in contrast Dalinar struggles with this a bit.

So they would keep people with opposing intrests from fighitng and establish order in times of conflict?

And on top of this it does not say putting themselves in charge.

2 hours ago, Lanaya said:

Lets ask another question to the people that think Navani doesn't unify: Who besides Dalinar has brought more people together than Navani and actually achieved results?

Kaladin.

2 hours ago, Lanaya said:

Also, we should dismiss the idea that Dalinar united Roshar by himself, he leaned on Navani a lot.

But who actually did the job? Dalinar had a support staff but he was the one who did the work.

2 hours ago, Lanaya said:

This lady united the tunes of odium+honor - something one of the smartest fused thought impossible.

This says more about the average intelegence of the fused than it does about Navani

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Actually, someone is arguing that she's completely unworthy. You came in with a more measured argument that there are others. There are always others. That's an easy argument to see both sides of. Dalinar wasn't exactly a unifier when he bonded Stormfather. His House stood alone after his best friend turned on him and everyone turned against him because he was considered crazy. He became more worthy over time. With Navani's help.

There are others arguing that she's completely unworthy. Which is wrong.

How is it wrong? Who does she unify that wasn't already on the same team?

So far the arguments in her favor are: "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge"

That isn't even close to enough.

The Sibling itself on the verge of being killed still almost refused her. That should tell us something. Her responce to being called unworthy is just "No I'm not" It's structured to give a call back to Gavilar but she never actually became worthy of being a bondsmith.

[Leuthie]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How is it wrong? Who does she unify that wasn't already on the same team?

So far the arguments in her favor are: "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge"

That isn't even close to enough.

The Sibling itself on the verge of being killed still almost refused her. That should tell us something. Her responce to being called unworthy is just "No I'm not" It's structured to give a call back to Gavilar but she never actually became worthy of being a bondsmith.

You're being disingenuous, which is probably why I always end up arguing with you too often. Arguments in her favor are much stronger and more nuanced than "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge". The fact that all you get out of them is that makes you sound like a child. I haven't even been arguing with your position that she shouldn't be a Bondsmith. I'm arguing how you characterize my position. How stupid and childish does that make me?

"She's smart" -- She made conclusions and developed processes that no one we know of has done before. This development should be completely nullified because Galivar had an example and Fused must be stupid to think that Navani is smart. Okay. Let's call this a tie and since it's all on my side to prove that Navani has some worthiness, you win on this point.

"She's good at being in charge" -- Dalinar was considered crazy. His best friend turned on him and every other house alienated his house. He and his house were left almost entirely alone save a couple of High Princes who basically felt sorry for him. Kaladin saved the day, Shallan found Urithiru. Dalinar said the words and Stormfather accepted him. There was absolutely no reason to think Dalinar was a unifier prior to bonding the Stormfather. And the Stormfather didn't want to be bonded. Had the Everstorm not been unleashed, the Stormfather would never have bonded Dalinar. It was a different kind of duress, but if you're going to argue that Navani is unworthy, you have to concede that so was Dalinar.

Every bit of unification that Dalinar has achieved since his bonding was with Navani's support. Every. Single. Step. Dalinar's unity is Navani's unity. Please refute without filtering it down to "Navani made suggestions to Dalinar."

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Leuthie said:

"She's good at being in charge" -- Dalinar was considered crazy. His best friend turned on him and every other house alienated his house. He and his house were left almost entirely alone save a couple of High Princes who basically felt sorry for him. Kaladin saved the day, Shallan found Urithiru. Dalinar said the words and Stormfather accepted him. There was absolutely no reason to think Dalinar was a unifier prior to bonding the Stormfather. And the Stormfather didn't want to be bonded. Had the Everstorm not been unleashed, the Stormfather would never have bonded Dalinar. It was a different kind of duress, but if you're going to argue that Navani is unworthy, you have to concede that so was Dalinar.

Every bit of unification that Dalinar has achieved since his bonding was with Navani's support. Every. Single. Step. Dalinar's unity is Navani's unity. Please refute without filtering it down to "Navani made suggestions to Dalinar."

Simple, Dalinar tried.

Who did Navani try to Unify? The closest thing you could say is artifabrians but she didn't care about the people just the information, if she had known about the tuning forks I doubt she would have lost any sleep over the Theylan Atifabrian guild.

The Stormfather would have bonded Dalinar without the Everstorm because Honor told him to, he did not need to be threatened.

On Navani doing Dalinar's work, what did Navani actually do? What did she specifically do to help Dalinar other than being there?

[Aspiring Writer]

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But who actually did the job?

um, Navani. After Dalinar convinces all the leaders to at least try making a coalition, she does end up being the one to make sure they don't shatter. I still think that more shows her skills as a leader and how she is capable of organizing, but she does play a large part.

 

23 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

You're being disingenuous, which is probably why I always end up arguing with you too often. Arguments in her favor are much stronger and more nuanced than "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge". The fact that all you get out of them is that makes you sound like a child. I haven't even been arguing with your position that she shouldn't be a Bondsmith. I'm arguing how you characterize my position. How stupid and childish does that make me?

"She's smart" -- She made conclusions and developed processes that no one we know of has done before. This development should be completely nullified because Galivar had an example and Fused must be stupid to think that Navani is smart. Okay. Let's call this a tie and since it's all on my side to prove that Navani has some worthiness, you win on this point.

"She's good at being in charge" -- Dalinar was considered crazy. His best friend turned on him and every other house alienated his house. He and his house were left almost entirely alone save a couple of High Princes who basically felt sorry for him. Kaladin saved the day, Shallan found Urithiru. Dalinar said the words and Stormfather accepted him. There was absolutely no reason to think Dalinar was a unifier prior to bonding the Stormfather. And the Stormfather didn't want to be bonded. Had the Everstorm not been unleashed, the Stormfather would never have bonded Dalinar. It was a different kind of duress, but if you're going to argue that Navani is unworthy, you have to concede that so was Dalinar.

Every bit of unification that Dalinar has achieved since his bonding was with Navani's support. Every. Single. Step. Dalinar's unity is Navani's unity. Please refute without filtering it down to "Navani made suggestions to Dalinar."

 

One, tone down the snark. By several levels.

two, some of those high princes joined him because they actually believed in him.

Three, Dalinar has been trying to bring together the high princes for the past two books. his success or failure is irrelevant. Navani does not show any interest in unifying people

Four, No, the Stormfather would've bonded Dalinar no matter what, he had to choose a bondsmith, which is different than what the sibling had to do. The stormfather had to choose a bondsmith from anyone in the world and he chose dalinar, the sibling had other preferences, but had only Navani and still almost said no even at her own death.

Five, yes, Navani is an important factor in Dalinar's unification, but if Dalinar decided he wanted to conquer the world to unite them, I think Navani would've still followed him. She doesn't have any real interest in unification, she's just helping Dalinar achieve whatever goal his mind is set on, which happens to be unifcation. 

Quote

@Frustration On Navani doing Dalinar's work, what did Navani actually do? What did she specifically do to help Dalinar other than being there?

A lot. She is the one who tells Dalinar how to interact with Queen Fen, it's her letter that convinces the Azish to join the coalition, she is the one who helps the coalition get set up when Dalinar gets incapacitated. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Infinity Sliver]

12 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

 

Four, No, the Stormfather would've bonded Dalinar no matter what, he had to choose a bondsmith, which is different than what the sibling had to do. The stormfather had to choose a bondsmith from anyone in the world and he chose dalinar, the sibling had other preferences, but had only Navani and still almost said no even at her own death.

 

i thought the Stormfather was hesitant to bond Dalinar. Wasnt his goal to just show visions to a potential Bondsmith(or something like that)? To the fact that he would have rather wiped out the people on the Shattered Plains instead of trying to help. Did the Stormfather also begrudgingly accept the oath too at the end of WOR? I cant remember exactly. 

My point is I dont think he HAD to choose a bondsmith,just show a potential Bondsmith Honor's visions and all

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

i thought the Stormfather was hesitant to bond Dalinar. Wasnt his goal to just show visions to a potential Bondsmith(or something like that)? To the fact that he would have rather wiped out the people on the Shattered Plains instead of trying to help. Did the Stormfather also begrudgingly accept the oath too at the end of WOR? I cant remember exactly. 

My point is I dont think he HAD to choose a bondsmith,just show a potential Bondsmith Honor's visions and all

So, the Stormfather was told by Honor to choose a bondsmith, which he will listen both out of respect and possibly out of some oath?, and so he first chose Gavilar, but when he died, he moved on to Dalinar. During the battle, he tried to kill everyone including Dalinar, but when he survived and said the oaths, he was bound to accept what he chose, which is why he did it begrudgingly. If the Stormfather could, he wouldn't have picked any bondsmith, he still held a grudge against humanity, but when told to choose from all of humanity, he chose Dalinar. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Infinity Sliver]

36 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So, the Stormfather was told by Honor to choose a bondsmith, which he will listen both out of respect and possibly out of some oath?, and so he first chose Gavilar, but when he died, he moved on to Dalinar. During the battle, he tried to kill everyone including Dalinar, but when he survived and said the oaths, he was bound to accept what he chose, which is why he did it begrudgingly. If the Stormfather could, he wouldn't have picked any bondsmith, he still held a grudge against humanity, but when told to choose from all of humanity, he chose Dalinar. 

Thats where im remembering things different. He wasnt told to choose a Bondsmith,he was told to show visions to a potential Bondsmith,or to a person who would benefit from them(according to the wiki).

Edited April 8, 2021 by Infinitysliver

[Quick Ben]

38 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

You're being disingenuous, which is probably why I always end up arguing with you too often. Arguments in her favor are much stronger and more nuanced than "She's smart, and she's good at being in charge". The fact that all you get out of them is that makes you sound like a child. I haven't even been arguing with your position that she shouldn't be a Bondsmith. I'm arguing how you characterize my position. How stupid and childish does that make me?

"She's smart" -- She made conclusions and developed processes that no one we know of has done before. This development should be completely nullified because Galivar had an example and Fused must be stupid to think that Navani is smart. Okay. Let's call this a tie and since it's all on my side to prove that Navani has some worthiness, you win on this point.

"She's good at being in charge" -- Dalinar was considered crazy. His best friend turned on him and every other house alienated his house. He and his house were left almost entirely alone save a couple of High Princes who basically felt sorry for him. Kaladin saved the day, Shallan found Urithiru. Dalinar said the words and Stormfather accepted him. There was absolutely no reason to think Dalinar was a unifier prior to bonding the Stormfather. And the Stormfather didn't want to be bonded. Had the Everstorm not been unleashed, the Stormfather would never have bonded Dalinar. It was a different kind of duress, but if you're going to argue that Navani is unworthy, you have to concede that so was Dalinar.

Every bit of unification that Dalinar has achieved since his bonding was with Navani's support. Every. Single. Step. Dalinar's unity is Navani's unity. Please refute without filtering it down to "Navani made suggestions to Dalinar."

 

I am relatively new to the shard but usually disagree with @Frustration as well, but regards Navani strangely we seem to agree.

I will say i think people are over-estimating what Navani has done, i don't see her as a scholar, i don't see her as someone who brings people together either. Her highest achievment is rediscovering something her husband had 8 years prior and she did so while colluding with the enemy.

Yes, she found a way to create "anti-light" she also gave all that information to the enemy.

I just don't think the sum of her achievemnets equates to being worthy of bonding a bondsmith spren, or any spren for that matter..

Also with regards your point on Dalinar, i do not think he was worthy of bonding the stormfather either. 

[Lanaya]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin.

Uniting Bridge 4 is a great feat and I agree with you that Kaladin is a very good 'unifier' and not a divider. With that said, I will use the same logic other people have used against Navani to undermine his feat:

'He just united people that were already there and working towards the goal of being the best bridge crew' - Where did the scholars get the direction and design for their fabrials? Where did they get the funding from? Was there a fabrial boom during Gavilar's reign?

'It was actually Teft that did a lot of the grunt work while Kaladin just ordered people around' - Everyone needs help. Navani needs help. Kaladin needs help. Dalinar needs help.

'Rock started the tradition of the stew which Bridge 4 hold so closely' - We don't talk about the ripple effects of having Navani in charge but I feel like the scholars/fabrial designers are at ease right now knowing they have a leader like Navani looking after them.

The thing I want to get across is that you can turn a lot of things against each other because you've made up your mind and refuse to see the other side. I believe Kaladin and Dalinar are great unifiers but who else? We can discount current radiants since we haven't seen anyone bond 2 spren yet.

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

A lot. She is the one who tells Dalinar how to interact with Queen Fen, it's her letter that convinces the Azish to join the coalition, she is the one who helps the coalition get set up when Dalinar gets incapacitated. 

Queen Fen was braught on by the Starfall vision, I won't say your wrong with this one, but I don't recall Navani being that helpful.

On the Azish her letter was important but it was far from the only thing that got them to join, The Recreance vision, Lift and Dalinar's precence all were major contributions

 

@Infinitysliver the Stormfather was told to find a Bondsmith

 

@Lanaya

In order

The bridgecrews were not already united, they only cared for themselves.

Teft did not make any decisions, nor did he do anything to unify.

The Stew was Kaladin's idea

You seem to think that I refuse to see the other side when the truth is I find your arguments inadequet to sway me.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Frustration

[Quick Ben]

2 minutes ago, Lanaya said:

:He just united people that were already there and working towards the goal of being the best bridge crew' -

That statement is completly wrong,.

Bridge 4 was who the other bridge crews looked down on, they were not " working toward being the best bridge crew" they were utterly dejected and despondent 

[Lanaya]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

That statement is completly wrong,.

Bridge 4 was who the other bridge crews looked down on, they were not " working toward being the best bridge crew" they were utterly dejected and despondent 

That's my whole point...Who had the foresight of designing a flying ship? Were fabrials having a great boom during Gavilar's reign? I actually stopped responding to you specifically on a  previous thread because you offer no counter arguments and literally said "I don't agree with your statement". If you actually want to offer input instead of just saying "I don't agree", i will respond but so far I haven't seen much.