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Navani Foreshadowing


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4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not Obvious!

*Deep breath*

Navani has spent her entire life and still does hold to a religion that says Fused are demons, it couldn't get more obvious!

An incredibly lame way to be extraordinary.

It would be weird if it didn't work on Regals.

And he didn't have shards during WoK, and after swearing fourth his Stormlight seems to work normally.

And tight corridors helps the smaller force.

What's not obvious?

And all Fused aren't demons. Raboniel was twisted and evil in a way but she helped Navani in the end even if she created Anti-Stormlight. And Leshwi did a lot of good, as did the four other Heavenly Ones that left the tower with her. Plus, Fused have centuries of experience in manipulation and Navani could either take a risk and get close to Raboniel and her work or she could just back down and let them have the tower. Even the Sibling was fooled by Raboniel. Also, it wouldn't exactly be that strange if the Regals weren't suppressed since they have very little Voidlight and no Surges.

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I needed to go back to the text to see what it actually said about the Sibling and whether they were forced to accept Navani. Here it is:

Quote

 

Not worthy.

The words echoed against Navani's soul, and for the moment she forgot Moash. She forgot the tower. She was someplace else.

Not good enough

Not a scholar

Not a creator

You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything that is distinctive about you came from someone else.

"Lies", she whispered. And they were.

They truly were.

She pressed her hands to the pillar. "Take me as your Bondsmith. I _am_ worthy, Sibling. I say the words. Life before death"

No. So soft. We are... too different... You capture spren.

"Who better to work together than two who believe differently?" she said. "Strength before weakness. We can compromise. Isn't that the soul of building bonds? Of uniting?"

Moash kicked Raboniel away and she hit the wall, limp as a doll.

"We can find the answers!", Navani said, blood dribbling from her lips. "Together"

You...just want... to live.

"Don't you?"

The sibiling's voice grew too soft to hear. Moash looked down the hallway toward Navani. 

So she closed her eyes and tried to hum. She tried to find the Stormlight's tone, pure and vibrant. But she faltered. Navani couldn't hear that tone, not right now. Not with everything falling apart, not with her life seeping away.

She found herself humming a different tone instead. The one Raboniel had always given her, with its chaotic rhythm. Yes, this close to death, Navani could hear that. His tone. Eager to claim her.

The Sibling whimpered

And Navani inverted the tone.

All it took was Intent. Odium gave the song, but she twisted it back upon him. She hummed the song of anti-Voidlight, her hand pressed to the pillar.

"Navani!" the sibling said, voice growing stronger. "The darkness retreats ever so slightly, What are you doing?"

"I... created this for you..." Navani said. "I tried to...."

Navani? The SIbling said. Navani, it's not enough. The song isn't loud enough. It seems to be hurting that man, though. He has frozen in place. Navani?

Her voice faltered. Her bloody hand slipped down to her side, leaving marks on the pillar.

I can hear my mother's tone, the Sibling said. But not _my_ tone. I think it's because my father is dead.

"Honor...." Navani whispered, "Honor is not...dead. He lives inside the hearts.... of his children...."

Does he? Truly? It seemed a plea, not a challenge.

Does he? Navani searched deep. Was what she'd been doing honorable? Creating fabrials? Imprisoning spren? Could she really say that? Odium's tone rang in her ears, though she'd stopped humming its inverse.

Then a pure song. Rising up from whithin her. Orderly, powerful. Had she done harm without realizing it? Possibly. Had she made mistakes? Certainly. But she'd been trying to help. That was _her_ journey. A journey to discover, learn, and make the world better.

Honor's song welled up in her, and she sang it. The pillar began to vibrate as the Sibling sang Cultivation's song. The pure sound of Lifelight. The sound began to shift, and Navani modulated her tone, inching it closer and closer to...

The two snapped into harmony. The boundless energy of Cultivation, always growing and changing, and the calm solidity of Honor - organized, structured. The vibrated together. Structure and nature. Knowledge and wonder. Mixing.

The song of science itself.

"That is it!" the Sibling whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower. "My song".

"Our emulsifier", Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower.

"The common ground", the Sibling said. "Between humans and spren. That is... that is why I was created, so long ago...."

A rough hand grabbed Navani and spun her around, then pressed her against the pillar. Maosh raised his Blade.

Navani, the Sibling said, I accept your words.

 

To me, it is obvious from this text that the Sibling finds Navani worthy. Regardless of the danger they both are in. Navani understands what the Sibling needs, and gives it to her. I also find this text a sort of extra explanation of the meaning of the first ideal. Navani says the three parts of the ideal in a way that underlines their meaning. And she ends it with "Journey before destination, you bastard". 

Because the journey is the most important. We fail. We stumble. We make mistakes. But we rise and we become better versions of ourselves. This is something that Moash cannot understand. But the Sibling does. And they understand Navani's worthiness.

 

Addition:

Later on, after Navani killed Raboniel, the Sibling says: "You have performed a kindness"

Navani says: "I feel awful".

"That is part of the kindness", the Sibling says.

"I am sorry", Navani said, "for discovering this light. It will let spren be killed"

It was coming to us, the Sibling said. Consequences once chased only humans. With the Recreance, the consequences became ours as well. You have simply sealed the truth as eternal.

Edited by Jenet
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On 4/7/2021 at 7:15 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

There is a difference between mass production and inventing.

Gavilar or someone close to him created Anti-Voidlight and Navani actually saw this and used it to get what she was looking for.

Also creating the Anti tone wasn’t hard. She saw in a book Destructive Interference and she used Intent.

The hard part was making that come together with Voidlight which didn’t take her to long only 2 weeks max and probably not that.

In the end she made an easily repeatable and accessible process building off the work of others, which is completely fine and worthy thing.

But does it make her deserve lots of credit? She will get some yah but it will be mostly undeserved, the credit for Anti voidlight lies solely on Gavilar and Co

Im going to give an example here: please don’t analyze it to much and fact check it

Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb he was the first one to do it and got all the credit.

If someone at the same time across the world came up with the light bulb immediately afterwards all by themselves they would receive nothing. End Example 

So Navani only gets credit for the mass production not the product 

 

Thomas Edison did not create the lightbulb. Edison consistently ripped off other people’s inventions, improved them, and claimed them as his own. He’s literally the worst example you could have chosen for what you’re trying to prove.

Humphrey Davey invented the original lightbulb in 1802. You’ve probably never heard of him.

https://www.bulbs.com/learning/history.aspx

I agree that original inventors deserve credit, but those who improve on their predecessors do too. The issue with Edison was that he rarely gave credit. When the actual inventor of anti-light shows up I expect Navani to give full credit where it’s due. Otherwise I’m going to be quite angry with her for the intellectual theft and dishonesty.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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Ask not whether Navani is worthy of Bonding the Sibling, ask if the Sibling is worthy of Bonding Navani.

Seriously, the Bondsmith spren act so petulant, I can't even. And the Nightwatcher might be even worse than the Stormfather or the Sibling as she apparently doesn't have any Connections to Roshar to influence her perception.

As for scientific aptitude, we all read Rhythm of War, right? Navani's main role might indeed be to fund research instead of conducting research but she's clearly capable of it.

And her political aptitude is also something, she basically ran the kingdom for both her husbands.

As for Anti-Light, she may not have been the first to create it, but it's not like she plagiarised off of Gavilar. 

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58 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Ask not whether Navani is worthy of Bonding the Sibling, ask if the Sibling is worthy of Bonding Navani.

Seriously, the Bondsmith spren act so petulant, I can't even. And the Nightwatcher might be even worse than the Stormfather or the Sibling as she apparently doesn't have any Connections to Roshar to influence her perception.

That's your problem?

They aren't people they are forces/objects given  minds

3 hours ago, Jenet said:

I needed to go back to the text to see what it actually said about the Sibling and whether they were forced to accept Navani. Here it is:

To me, it is obvious from this text that the Sibling finds Navani worthy. Regardless of the danger they both are in. Navani understands what the Sibling needs, and gives it to her. I also find this text a sort of extra explanation of the meaning of the first ideal. Navani says the three parts of the ideal in a way that underlines their meaning. And she ends it with "Journey before destination, you bastard". 

Because the journey is the most important. We fail. We stumble. We make mistakes. But we rise and we become better versions of ourselves. This is something that Moash cannot understand. But the Sibling does. And they understand Navani's worthiness.

I still think that no one Navani esspecially do not deserve unbounded Bondsmith power, but you have made me feel better about it.

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4 hours ago, Jenet said:

Because the journey is the most important. We fail. We stumble. We make mistakes. But we rise and we become better versions of ourselves. This is something that Moash cannot understand. But the Sibling does. And they understand Navani's worthiness.

@Jenet for the win.

Also a good reminder that we should always go back to the text when these arguments start to stray.

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On 4/10/2021 at 11:51 AM, Jenet said:

I have seen Navani as the obvious candidate for the sibling since I realized there was a Sibling. And Rlain as the Sibling Bondsmith? Why? Is there a specific reason for using him as an example, or did you just pick a person? I agree that one of the bondsmiths should certainly be a singer, but Rlain is a rather shy and reserved man, with no demonstrated leadership experience or talents, and I found his ending up as a truthwatcher very logical and worthy.  Also the Nightwatcher bondsmith would be more logical for a singer, as I feel they have a closeness to Cultivation that the humans don't have.

The only argument for choosing Rlain as a bondsmith is that he knows both human and singer culture better than most. But his experience is coming from being a slave. True, he may learn, as all the radiants must, but I fail to see why he is an obviously better candidate than Navani, who has specialized her whole life in many of the topics that are required of a Bondsmith as I see it.

The reason i mentioned Rlain, is two fold.

1. Making him the bondsmith of the sibling makes sense because we see the listeners who escaped about to become radiant at the end of RoW, who better to bridge the divide between listener radiant and human radiants then a listener bondsmith ? Dalinar/Navani won't.

2. Honour and Cultivation were the gods of the listeners before the humans were ever on Roshar, who better for a singer to become the bondsmith for then the child of Honour and Cultivation ? Also Rlain has a far deeper connection to Roshar and spren.

On 4/10/2021 at 11:51 AM, Jenet said:

According to Raboniel, Navani's understanding and knowledge is above her own, and Raboniel was the best scientist that the singers had. So despite the slip with the notes, Navani probably has captured some essential information and understanding, and I think she knows it, but she is too modest to talk too much about it yet. And we can gruess that the singers have not got the resources to understand what Navani just did, and then construct new weapons from it.

In order to really gain something, especially in dangerous situatons, you need to be brave enough to just grab for it and to hell with the consequences. Because the consequence of doing nothing is worse. You must take the chance when it occurs.

Being brave and intrepid in danger does not mean that you will be careless strategically. Navani has proven to be careful and wise in strategic situations. Getting out of a desperate situation and saving your city, your spren, your people, and steal with you crucial pieces of knowledge of Rosharan physics is an impressive feat, and for me, the price she had to pay was bearable. She will be able to make way more powerful weapons with what she now knows.

But that remains to be seen, Sanderson is the master of the puppets here. This is just my explanation of why I still root for Navani.

Rabional also says the singers fail to learn, and find it hard to adopt new ideas. 

On 4/10/2021 at 0:37 PM, mdross81 said:

This is simply not true that she only thinks about being free to pursue scholarship. From chapter 49:

I’m sure I can find more examples as well. And I don’t view it as problematic that she does think about being free to perform scholarship. It’s built into her character that she’s always wanted to and been capable of doing more, but couldn’t because she was always doing her duty by attending to more mundane, but still important, tasks that otherwise wouldn’t get done. It doesn’t come across to me that she lets that sense of freedom overwhelm other considerations about her situation. But I can see where for others it might because I think Brandon returned to that idea a lot to hammer on that theme with Navani.

There is a scene in RoW where Navani waxing lyrical about being free to fully delve into scholorship im sure, don't have the book to had to find its location.

And of course it is problematic if she thinks about being free to do scholarship. The tower is under enemy occupation, she has no idea of the welfare of the people within the tower, what she does is collude with the enemy, 

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12 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

There is a scene in RoW where Navani waxing lyrical about being free to fully delve into scholorship im sure, don't have the book to had to find its location.

And of course it is problematic if she thinks about being free to do scholarship. The tower is under enemy occupation, she has no idea of the welfare of the people within the tower, what she does is collude with the enemy, 

I don't agree that she didn't know about the welfare of the people in the tower. The Dabbid/Sibling allowed her to get a sense of what was happening elsewhere in the tower.

As as for her thinking about being free to do research, in case I wasn't clear, I was essentially saying she could walk and chew gum at the same time, or recognize a silver lining of an otherwise terrible situation. It would be problematic if she had thought exclusively about her freedom to pursue research, but I don't think that she did.

The quest to better understand Light was part of her Radiant journey. From the excerpt that was posted above:

Quote

Had she done harm without realizing it? Possibly. Had she made mistakes? Certainly. But she'd been trying to help. That was  her journey. A journey to discover, learn, and make the world better.

This was her journey. I don't think that her taking advantage of the opportunity to further that journey was wrong.

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2 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I don't agree that she didn't know about the welfare of the people in the tower. The Dabbid/Sibling allowed her to get a sense of what was happening elsewhere in the tower.

You could argue that point, but unless im mistaken she never once asks ?

3 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

As as for her thinking about being free to do research, in case I wasn't clear, I was essentially saying she could walk and chew gum at the same time, or recognize a silver lining of an otherwise terrible situation. It would be problematic if she had thought exclusively about her freedom to pursue research, but I don't think that she did.

Silver lining ? Colluding with the enemy is a silver lining ?

Also it is all she thinks about while researching/creating anti-light, 

6 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

The quest to better understand Light was part of her Radiant journey. From the excerpt that was posted above:

This was her journey. I don't think that her taking advantage of the opportunity to further that journey was wrong.

She colluded with the enemy, gave them the means to kill radiants once and for all and she wasnt wrong to do it ?

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3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Also it is all she thinks about while researching/creating anti-light,

You know, I thought about this almost as soon as I hit submit on my last post. That's fair. She did have that one stretch where she was feverishly focused on creating anti-Light seemingly to the exclusion of all else. Best defense I can offer is that she was desperate to find something she could use to help the Sibling. She does explicitly say to the Sibling just prior to bonding that she made anti-Voidlight for the Sibling, to help push out the Voidlight corrupting them. This is a potential knock on the writing. We probably wouldn't be having this whole argument if Brandon had given us a little more of Navani thinking along those lines and a little less of her relishing the opportunity to pursue research.

6 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Silver lining ? Colluding with the enemy is a silver lining ?

She colluded with the enemy, gave them the means to kill radiants once and for all and she wasnt wrong to do it ?

On this, I would not go so far as to say she colluded. Not trying to be pedantic, but I just don't think that word accurately describes her interactions with Raboniel. To me the word collusion suggests a more willing, intentional effort to help the enemy. I don't think Navani went that far.

My reading of it was that she was pursuing the research for her own ends. And she tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to hide her work from Raboniel. It's fair to argue that she didn't fully appreciate the risk and the future implications. But it goes to far, I think, to say that she was intentionally trying to give the enemy the means to kill Radiant spren. It seems you may disagree, and that's fine.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's your problem?

They aren't people they are forces/objects given minds

Still don't like the way how you think of the spren. They might not be human, but they're definitely people.

Regardless, the Sibling viewed human lives as worth less, was consistently rude & demanding. The Stormfather might as well be an inflated balloon with that ego, his measure of the worth of a human life is even worse. The Nightwatcher routinely curses desperate people. I rest my case.

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3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thomas Edison did not create the lightbulb. Edison consistently ripped off other people’s inventions, improved them, and claimed them as his own. He’s literally the worst example you could have chosen for what you’re trying to prove.

Humphrey Davey invented the original lightbulb in 1802. You’ve probably never heard of him.

https://www.bulbs.com/learning/history.aspx

I agree that original inventors deserve credit, but those who improve on their predecessors do too. The issue with Edison was that he rarely gave credit. When the actual inventor of anti-light shows up I expect Navani to give full credit where it’s due. Otherwise I’m going to be quite angry with her for the intellectual theft and dishonesty.

I did know that when I wrote it but it doesn’t matter one bit to the actual facts because we know who invented Anti-Light. 

and we’re all that matters 

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

You know, I thought about this almost as soon as I hit submit on my last post. That's fair. She did have that one stretch where she was feverishly focused on creating anti-Light seemingly to the exclusion of all else. Best defense I can offer is that she was desperate to find something she could use to help the Sibling. She does explicitly say to the Sibling just prior to bonding that she made anti-Voidlight for the Sibling, to help push out the Voidlight corrupting them. This is a potential knock on the writing. We probably wouldn't be having this whole argument if Brandon had given us a little more of Navani thinking along those lines and a little less of her relishing the opportunity to pursue research.

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

She did not need the sphere for this. She could have found the Tone and stoped. There was no reason to give Raboniel the means to destroy their greatest strength.

 

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9 hours ago, Jenet said:

EDIT: I think we're conflating worthiness with deserving: Do any of the Kholins deserve to be Radiants? Renarin and Adolin maybe, but their family has a long history of atrocities. Do they deserve this power? No. In fact they probably deserve a long long prison sentence. No one deserves anything. Every one has hurt others. Every one has been cruel at least once, perhaps deliberately. But seeing as how we do get mercy, we do get forgiveness, we do have these things that we do not deserve, then we can make good use of them. We can become worthy to have them.

The Kholins did not deserve their powers. But they've grown into their powers. They've used their powers to help, to save, to unite. They are not deserving, but they are worthy.

All the Kholinar had proven their worth before became a Radiant.

The sibling took the bond out of pure desperation, and was sweet talked by Navani.

If Navani can prove that she can handle the responsibilities without making world changing mistakes then there would be an argument for her having the bond.

But the one time she was under intense pressure ( political conversation are not pressure) she colluded with the enemy in full cooperation mode. Only using a bare minimal effort to keep the most dangerous technology hidden.

 

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Still don't like the way how you think of the spren. They might not be human, but they're definitely people.

That would depend on what makes something a person. Something I don't think they have.

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Regardless, the Sibling viewed human lives as worth less, was consistently rude & demanding. The Stormfather might as well be an inflated balloon with that ego, his measure of the worth of a human life is even worse. The Nightwatcher routinely curses desperate people. I rest my case.

I never read anything the Sibling said as unreasonable, they just want to be left alone.

The Stormfather straight up tells Syl that she could be more than he is during RoW.

The Nightwatcher doesn't go around cursing people, she lets them come to her and if she wants to she'll give them whatever they want, with a downside added on. It's an entirely voluntary process, the people know that a curse will be added.

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49 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She did not need the sphere for this. She could have found the Tone and stoped. There was no reason to give Raboniel the means to destroy their greatest strength.

I'm going to take your response here as maybe begrudging acceptance that trying finding the anti-Voidlight tone to help the Sibling was a worthwhile pursuit for Navani. That's not the recklessness, right? It's taking the next step and using the tone to create anti-Voidlight that you take issue with. Which seems fair, so I went back to chapter 97 to look at what happens in between. And I'm going to go through what happens with an eye toward being as objective as possible.

The day after Navani has created the metal plate and figured out the anti-Voidlight tone, she sets to work on seeing whether she can create anti-Voidlight. I think (based on prior discussions and something that Navani thinks later) that the reason she's continuing to try to figure out how to make anti-Voidlight (as opposed to just stopping with the tone) is that Raboniel has dropped hints that it might be possible to make a weapon that could hurt and/or destroy Odium.

At this point, Raboniel isn't paying much attention to Navani because they've destroyed all but one of the nodes and think they are close to finding that one as well. Raboniel shows up, however, her interest piqued by Navani's latest request for equipment.

Quote

Navani braced herself. She'd been planning for this.

So, she at least knew that between the equipment request and the terrible sounds the Fused guard heard, Raboniel might come around, and Navani had come up with a plan.

Raboniel asks Navani what she's working on and Navani tries to deflect the questions, saying it's not really anything of note; no big deal if they can't find the equipment. Raboniel keeps asking though, so Navani asks Raboniel about axi and polarity. Raboniel sees the bucket of icy water where Navani is experimenting to see if temperature could blank the tone of Voidlight. She tells Raboniel she's just trying to see if temperature changes an infused gemstone's rhythm and asks Raboniel to help her out with the experiment, which shows no change in the rhythms.

Quote

Navani took the gemstone out with a pair of tongs and gave it to Raboniel. Though Navani could faintly hear the tones of gemstones if she pressed a lot of them to her skin, her skill wasn't fine-tuned enough to detect small changes in volume. She needed a Singer to finish this experiment. But how to keep Raboniel from figuring out what she'd discovered?

Raboniel took the sphere and waited, her eyes closed. Finally she shook her head. "I can sense no change in the tone. Why does it matter?"

"I'm trying to determine if anything alters the tone," Navani said. "Creating Warlight requires a slight alteration of Odium's and Honor's tones, in order to put them in harmony. If I can find other things that alter Voidlight's tone, I might be able to create other hybrids."

It was a plausible enough explanation. It should explain her requests for plates and other devices, even the ice.

So Navani's got a cover story, and it almost works. Navani tries to act nonchalant while making some notes about the experiment and is hoping Raboniel will leave it there. But then Raboniel starts picking through plates and finds the anti-Voidlight one, though Navani had tried to hide it.

Quote

Navani breathed out quietly, closing her eyes. She'd racked her mind for ways to hide what she was doing, taking every precaution she could ... but she should have known. She was at such a severe disadvantage, watched at all times, with Raboniel always nearby.

Raboniel plays it and learns that Navani has figured out a tone that forces Voidlight out of a gem. Raboniel reconsiders the ice bucket experiment and Navani's questions about axi in light of this revelation and figures out that Navani was trying to find a way to dampen the vibrations so she could rewrite the tone. Raboniel is excited and Navani feels caught up in the excitement too, but regains some degree of composure and remembers the plan she's been making in case Raboniel caught on:

Quote

She hummed to an axcited rhythm. And Damnation if a part of Navani wasn't caught up in that sound. In the thrill of discovery. of being so close.

Careful, Navani, she reminded herself. She had to do her best to keep this knowledge from the enemy. There was a way, a plan she'd been making should Raboniel intrude as she had. A possible path to maintaining the secrets of anti-Voidlight.

Navani tries to lie and say she hasn't written this down, but Raboniel calls her bluff and ensures her that the Fused will rip apart the room to find the notes. Navani relents and gets the notebook from where she'd hidden it. Navani acknowledges it was probably a mistake to write it down but also that she wouldn't have gotten this far without doing so:

Quote

Perhaps Navani should have kept all of her discoveries in her head, but she'd been unable to resist writing them down. She'd needed to see her ideas on the page, to use notes, to get as far as she had.

As Raboniel sits down to read the notes, the vacuum tube Navani had requested arrives. Navani then uses the vacuum tube and the anti-Voidlight plate to rewrite the Voidlight, resulting in the sphere infused with anti-Voidight. She's done it and Raboniel knows it, so Navani has to hope that her plan to try to deal with such an eventuality will work. Navani feigns exhaustion and leaves the room, knowing what Raboniel will try to do next and that it will cause an explosion. Navani was right, but the explosion, unfortunately, did not kill Raboniel. Here are Navani's thoughts immediately after:

Quote

At any rate, Raboniel was still alive, and Navani's scheme had failed. Navani had assumed that, in her absence, Raboniel would take the next step - to try mixing Voidlight with the new Light. Raboniel kept saying she expected Lights to puff away when mixed, vanishing. She didn't expect the explosion.

Navani had hoped that if she died, it would delay Raboniel's corruption of the tower long enough for Navani to properly weaponize this new Light. That was not to be. The explosion had been smaller than the one that had destroyed the room with the scholars, and Raboniel was far tougher than a human.

So that's the ballgame in terms of the Fused now knowing how to create anti-Voidlight and by extension anti-Stormlight.

Where does this leave things in terms of reviewing Navani's actions? I can bend a little in my defense of her actions and admit that maybe she shouldn't have tried to create the anti-Light in the first place. Raboniel was lying about anti-Light truly being a threat to Odium, but it's not clear whether Navani fully believed it would threaten Odium or if she just thought it would be something she could weaponize to fight off the occupiers.

I think a close review of the sequence of events should put to bed the arguments that Navani was simply a captured scientist dutifully creating a super-weapon at her captor's request. She had her own agenda for creating it, tried to hide what she was working on, and had a plan to try to kill Raboniel with the explosion in the event that her work was discovered. Was her plan good enough? Obviously not since it didn't work. But she had one. She tried. She wasn't entirely naive and reckless.

In the end, this doesn't change my mind about Navani. Desperate times, desperate measures, she took a calculated risk. I don't think the actions disqualify her from bonding the Sibling. I know some on this thread believe that unchained Bondsmith powers are just so overpowered that basically no one is worthy. I respect that viewpoint, but I'm not engaging it here because it's not the story that's being told. I'm dealing with a world in which we accept that some people are going to be deemed worthy and I don't hold Navani's actions during the occupation against her worthiness. I can accept and respect that others disagree.

I suspect it won't change others' minds either, but hopefully it helps to have something laying out the exact chain of events so we can discuss specifics rather than making generalized arguments pro and con.

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8 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Where does this leave things in terms of reviewing Navani's actions? I can bend a little in my defense of her actions and admit that maybe she shouldn't have tried to create the anti-Light in the first place. Raboniel was lying about anti-Light truly being a threat to Odium, but it's not clear whether Navani fully believed it would threaten Odium or if she just thought it would be something she could weaponize to fight off the occupiers.

So let me get this clear:

She made a super weapon for the enemy, knew the enemy was lying about the reason they wanted it, did it anyway. And then proceeded to make a more dangerous version of it. Keep the process written down in a notebook on her counter. And hand it over willingly so Raboniel doesn’t ‘destroy’ the room.

I’m glad you forgive me for thinking she shouldn’t be trusted with one of the most powerful power sets on Roshar.

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29 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So let me get this clear:

She made a super weapon for the enemy, knew the enemy was lying about the reason they wanted it, did it anyway. And then proceeded to make a more dangerous version of it. Keep the process written down in a notebook on her counter. And hand it over willingly so Raboniel doesn’t ‘destroy’ the room.

I’m glad you forgive me for thinking she shouldn’t be trusted with one of the most powerful power sets on Roshar.

Dude. The snarky tone is just not necessary. Especially when I’m admitting to softening my opposing viewpoint.

And stop mischaracterizing what I say. She didn’t make the super weapon for the enemy. She tried to make it for herself, and the procedure she used fell into enemy hands. I didn’t say she knew the enemy was lying about what anti-Voidlight could do. I said it’s not clear whether Navani thought it capable of destroying Odium or just capable of being used as a weapon against the Fused. In either event she wanted to use it for her side. And of course they would have torn apart the room to find the notebook. I don’t get the sarcasm quotation marks.

I never suggested those with opposing viewpoints need forgiveness. Simply made what I think is a completely reasonable acknowledgement that I can respect different views. Chill out. 

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12 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Dude. The snarky tone is just not necessary. Especially when I’m admitting to softening my opposing viewpoint.

And stop mischaracterizing what I say. She didn’t make the super weapon for the enemy. She tried to make it for herself, and the procedure she used fell into enemy hands. I didn’t say she knew the enemy was lying about what anti-Voidlight could do. I said it’s not clear whether Navani thought it capable of destroying Odium or just capable of being used as a weapon against the Fused. In either event she wanted to use it for her side. And of course they would have torn apart the room to find the notebook. I don’t get the sarcasm quotation marks.

I never suggested those with opposing viewpoints need forgiveness. Simply made what I think is a completely reasonable acknowledgement that I can respect different views. Chill out. 

Sorry about the tone. I’m really bad at writing texts with the correct language. None of that was to imply a snarky or superior attitude. The quotes were from RoW when Raboniel threatened to destroy her lab if she didn’t get the notes.

 

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I just want to add in my two cents and say that, while I like Navani as a character, I am disappointed that she took up so much screen time— time which I felt would’ve been better spent fleshing out the world, especially the Singers. I would’ve liked it better if Navani got some of Venli’s page time, and Rlain or Dabbid got to be the Sibling Bondsmith. I don’t think we really need another Kholin radiant at this point and it would’ve been nice to see more power devolved to marginalized groups.

I also do not think that Navani’s arc was necessary— she didn’t need to be some super brilliant tony stark type scientist, her being a rich amateur who uses her wealth for a good cause and has some managerial abilities was good, because it offered a breath of change from the normal “comprehensive designer” archetype. I think it would’ve been better for Navani to realize that her previous role was okay, rather than also ending up special.

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2 incorrect assertions I've seen:

"We know who invented Anti-Light and it wasn't Navani"

Wrong. We know that Gavilar had a sphere of Anti-Light and likely knew what it was. There is no indication that he invented it, or that the person who gave it to him invented it. Anti-Light has existed since Adonalsium, because that's how physics works. It's not Invented, but discovered. The first discoverer of Anti-Light is either dead, or is an insane Herald. Navani performed no plagiarism. If someone else got to it first then post-RoW they're not going to care because they're dead or they believe that they're Adonalsium reincarnated. Navani gets credit for her own work. Her work discovered Anti-Light. I'm not going to budge on that.

"Navani was stupid because she gave the enemy a superweapon." 

Um. She created the only superweapon that would've saved Team Radiant's butts. Killing Fused wasn't going to work as long as the Everstorm was around. She created the only viable way to kill a Fused. Team Odium also received the only viable way to kill a Spren, but ultimately it's a leveling of the playing field, not a "oh no the enemy got an awesome weapon" moment.

Fact 1: Without a meaningful way to deplete enemy resources, Team Radiant is essentially screwed

Fact 2: Anti-Light gives Team Radiant a way to meaningfully deplete enemy resources.

Fact 3: If Team Odium got ahold of this, Team Radiant would also face being depleted.

Fact 4: Having two armies capable of actually destroying each other is better than 90% of humans and singers dying on the battlefield as their immortal sources of power constantly recycle themselves new bodies. (Fused doing so forcibly, Radiants doing so mostly-voluntarily.)

Honestly, I don't much expect threads of this nature to concern themselves to such inconvenient things like intellectual honesty or even-handed analyses (i.e. the Shallan hate thread, the Adolin hate thread, the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread) because ultimately people will see and believe what they choose to see and believe, facts be stormed. And that's okay. Really it is. It's a bit disappointing to see sometimes, especially when I happen to disagree, but people have a right to be open-minded, close-minded, Navani hating or #NavanibestGirl. 

I'm not a massive Navani fan. Like Camille I think RoW probably could've benefited from not focusing so much on her. It would've been cool if the Venli/Willshaper book was actually about Venli and other Willshapers, instead of Venli being shunted to minor-MC status and instead RoW being Bondsmith Book #2. But personally I think taking the Navani-hate to this level is ignoring a lot of things from the books and purposefully twisting things to a particular PoV. 

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2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

2 incorrect assertions I've seen:

"We know who invented Anti-Light and it wasn't Navani"

Wrong. We know that Gavilar had a sphere of Anti-Light and likely knew what it was. There is no indication that he invented it, or that the person who gave it to him invented it. Anti-Light has existed since Adonalsium, because that's how physics works. It's not Invented, but discovered. The first discoverer of Anti-Light is either dead, or is an insane Herald. Navani performed no plagiarism. If someone else got to it first then post-RoW they're not going to care because they're dead or they believe that they're Adonalsium reincarnated. Navani gets credit for her own work. Her work discovered Anti-Light. I'm not going to budge on that.

She still was not the first one, it doesn't matter if the person who did it first cares or not, they did it.

3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

"Navani was stupid because she gave the enemy a superweapon." 

Um. She created the only superweapon that would've saved Team Radiant's butts. Killing Fused wasn't going to work as long as the Everstorm was around. She created the only viable way to kill a Fused. Team Odium also received the only viable way to kill a Spren, but ultimately it's a leveling of the playing field, not a "oh no the enemy got an awesome weapon" moment.

Fact 1: Without a meaningful way to deplete enemy resources, Team Radiant is essentially screwed

Fact 2: Anti-Light gives Team Radiant a way to meaningfully deplete enemy resources.

Fact 3: If Team Odium got ahold of this, Team Radiant would also face being depleted.

Fact 4: Having two armies capable of actually destroying each other is better than 90% of humans and singers dying on the battlefield as their immortal sources of power constantly recycle themselves new bodies. (Fused doing so forcibly, Radiants doing so mostly-voluntarily.)

Nightblood exists, and was exclusivly in Radiant hands.

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3 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Um. She created the only superweapon that would've saved Team Radiant's butts. Killing Fused wasn't going to work as long as the Everstorm was around. She created the only viable way to kill a Fused. Team Odium also received the only viable way to kill a Spren, but ultimately it's a leveling of the playing field, not a "oh no the enemy got an awesome weapon" moment.

I’ve only got one question for you. Why did Navani have to make it when Raboniel was right there. She could have waited until she was liberated until she did

And if you tell me that she did because she didn’t know if she would be freed then she shouldn’t make it at all.

5 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Wrong. We know that Gavilar had a sphere of Anti-Light and likely knew what it was. There is no indication that he invented it, or that the person who gave it to him invented it. Anti-Light has existed since Adonalsium, because that's how physics works. It's not Invented, but discovered. The first discoverer of Anti-Light is either dead, or is an insane Herald. Navani performed no plagiarism. If someone else got to it first then post-RoW they're not going to care because they're dead or they believe that they're Adonalsium reincarnated. Navani gets credit for her own work. Her work discovered Anti-Light. I'm not going to budge on that.

The fact that Gavilar might not have created it means nothing. 
Navani wasn’t the first. End of story.

If you feel that that doesn’t make a difference I respect that but disagree 

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

She still was not the first one, it doesn't matter if the person who did it first cares or not, they did it.

Since this came up twice I'll just choose the shorter one to respond to but also @Bejardin1250


Okay, so by logical extension shouldn't we remove all the accolades and awards from every physicist and mathematician we know? Because I'm sure for every Newton and Galileo that got their works published and recognized there was between 1 and 12 monks and scholars who came up with the same ideas but then got killed as heretics or just never published. If math and physics are discovered, not invented, then why do we honor anyone with discovering anything at all? It seems strange to deny anyone any kind of credit simply because they didn't get there first. Again with the marathon analogy--why does it matter if someone finished a marathon first, second, or tenth, or thirtieth? They ran the marathon

Who's arguing that she was the first? She was the one that mattered. 

Ah well, I've said my piece. I'll say no more. I do still relish the way this thread illustrates Hoid's WoK story so perfectly.

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Just now, The Technovore said:

Since this came up twice I'll just choose the shorter one to respond to but also @Bejardin1250


Okay, so by logical extension shouldn't we remove all the accolades and awards from every physicist and mathematician we know? Because I'm sure for every Newton and Galileo that got their works published and recognized there was between 1 and 12 monks and scholars who came up with the same ideas but then got killed as heretics or just never published. If math and physics are discovered, not invented, then why do we honor anyone with discovering anything at all? It seems strange to deny anyone any kind of credit simply because they didn't get there first. Again with the marathon analogy--why does it matter if someone finished a marathon first, second, or tenth, or thirtieth? They ran the marathon

Who's arguing that she was the first? She was the one that mattered. 

Ah well, I've said my piece. I'll say no more. I do still relish the way this thread illustrates Hoid's WoK story so perfectly.

I'm not saying she didn't run the marathon, but the Trophey belongs to someone else.

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