Infinitysliver

Navani Foreshadowing

335 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

ooooo,was doing a reread of ROW when i noticed this gem by Gavilar,. I'll just space them out

“You aren’t worthy, Navani." She becomes worthy,even when the Sibling also told her she wasn't worthy

"You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries? You study light, but you are its opposite. A thing that destroys light."  She discovers Anti-Light,a thing that destroys light

"You spend your time wallowing in the muck of the kitchens and obsessing about whether or not some insignificant lighteyes recognizes the right lines on a map." I feel like there was something for this but I forget

“These are not the actions of greatness. You are no scholar. You merely like being near them. You are no artifabrian. You are merely a woman who likes trinkets. You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything distinctive about you came from someone else. You have no power—you merely like to marry men who have it.” She basically becomes a scholar,helps create the fabrials that enable the flying jig,becomes one of potentially 3(4?) Bondsmiths.

 

 

Edited by Infinitysliver
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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

“You aren’t worthy, Navani." She becomes worthy,even when the Sibling also told her she wasn't worthy

I'm not trying to be overly contradictory but she never became worthy of anything close to Bondsmith powers.

Edited by Frustration
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57 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

ooooo,was doing a reread of ROW when i noticed this gem by Gavilar,. I'll just space them out

“You aren’t worthy, Navani." She becomes worthy,even when the Sibling also told her she wasn't worthy

 

Like Frustration above i do not think Navani ever became worthy.

58 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

"You claim to be a scholar, but where are your discoveries? You study light, but you are its opposite. A thing that destroys light."  She discovers Anti-Light,a thing that destroys light

Not to be pedantic, but she didn't discover anti light, she "rediscovered" something she already knew existed.

59 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

“These are not the actions of greatness. You are no scholar. You merely like being near them. You are no artifabrian. You are merely a woman who likes trinkets. You have no fame, accomplishment, or capacity of your own. Everything distinctive about you came from someone else. You have no power—you merely like to marry men who have it.” She basically becomes a scholar,helps create the fabrials that enable the flying jig,becomes one of potentially 3(4?) Bondsmiths.

Again, she didnt become a scholar, she is/was just a financial backer to the people who did create the above.

While a finacial backer on any project, be it scientific, construction or whatever may over time develop on interest in same to the point they are able to converse with scientists/architects/project managers etc and even offer keen insights thats could perhaps be overlooked, at no point do they become a scientist/architect/project manager etc

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1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

Like Frustration above i do not think Navani ever became worthy.

I disagree

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

Not to be pedantic, but she didn't discover anti light, she "rediscovered" something she already knew existed.

The human that first developed the method to create reproducible fire didn't discover fire, either. However, the method created was extremely important and no one had discovered that method before...therefore credit.

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

Again, she didnt become a scholar, she is/was just a financial backer to the people who did create the above.

While a finacial backer on any project, be it scientific, construction or whatever may over time develop on interest in same to the point they are able to converse with scientists/architects/project managers etc and even offer keen insights thats could perhaps be overlooked, at no point do they become a scientist/architect/project manager etc

Elon Musk is unworthy of any credit for the things developed by the companies he founds, funds and controls?

If that's not a worthy argument: Navani wasn't doing any financial backing during the occupation of Urithiru. Raboniel, an actual scholar, gave her full credit for her part in their discoveries, considered Navani an equal, and even got a better perspective of human abilities based almost entirely on their interactions. On top of that, as with Elon Musk above, she took the tools and resources available to her (including people with more knowledge and experience than her) and directed them toward the discoveries that were made. This seems to be the exact role of a Bondsmith. In fact, Dalinar's huge contribution to the one fight we've seen him in was as a financial backer (provided unlimited Stormlight) and a director of resources (was given a precious stone and used his experience and networking abilities to make a deal with a rival).

Navani's character arc isn't over, and she's only 1st Ideal. She has a long way to go to get real Bondsmith powers. The struggle she'll have with her own worthiness and with the Sibling's perceptions of her should be an very interesting side story and something we haven't really seen from Brandon, so narratively it is a good turn. You can hate her all you want, after all she is rich and privileged and she took the position that you thought the poor, oppressed Parshendi (Rlain) would get. But there are many other people less worthy of Radiant status than her.

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4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I disagree

What did she do to become worthy of one of if not the most dangerous powersets in the entire cosmere.

The ability to rip apart peoples souls, basically mind control etc

5 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The human that first developed the method to create reproducible fire didn't discover fire, either. However, the method created was extremely important and no one had discovered that method before...therefore credit.

Elon Musk is unworthy of any credit for the things developed by the companies he founds, funds and controls?

Elon musk is not credited with the creation of the car, because someone else did that first, just because Navani did something doesn't mean she discovered it, Gavilar or someone close to him gets the credit, not her.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

What did she do to become worthy of one of if not the most dangerous powersets in the entire cosmere.

The ability to rip apart peoples souls, basically mind control etc

She's not. She's 1st Ideal. She's worthy of holding Stormlight and starting the process. Maybe she'll be the first example of a Radiant who never makes it past 1st Ideal because she's so unworthy?

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Elon musk is not credited with the creation of the car, because someone else did that first, just because Navani did something doesn't mean she discovered it, Gavilar or someone close to him gets the credit, not her.

Elon musk was an example to counter a completely different argument. He deserves some credit for the developments at Tesla, SpaceX and the Boring Company among others because he provided the direction and the resources to make them happen. Individual people rarely make great innovations on their own, and groups of individuals can rarely pool their abilities well without someone directing them and providing resources. Navani deserves the same level of credit that Elon Musk deserves. You may still think she deserves none, in which case, I contend you don't understand how innovation works.

What Navani discovered was a reproducible process to create anti-Investiture. That's an innovation, a discovery, and no one else gets credit for it, no matter who she was once married to or what she saw on his desk. (BTW, I'm not often vocal about feminism, but giving the dead husband credit for a woman's discovery is just completely messed up, especially when you have no idea how he obtained the things he had or whether or not he actually knew what they were) Maybe you don't consider Raboniel a scholar, but Brandon Sanderson took great pains to describe her as such, and she considered Navani an equal after their time together. Given time, maybe Navani can even put her rich donor life aside, become an ardent, and devote her life to study long enough for you to consider her in a better light than her husband did during his tirade at the beginning of the story.

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2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

What Navani discovered was a reproducible process to create anti-Investiture. That's an innovation, a discovery, and no one else gets credit for it, no matter who she was once married to or what she saw on his desk. (BTW, I'm not often vocal about feminism, but giving the dead husband credit for a woman's discovery is just completely messed up, especially when you have no idea how he obtained the things he had or whether or not he actually knew what they were) Maybe you don't consider Raboniel a scholar, but Brandon Sanderson took great pains to describe her as such, and she considered Navani an equal after their time together. Given time, maybe Navani can even put her rich donor life aside, become an ardent, and devote her life to study long enough for you to consider her in a better light than her husband did during his tirade at the beginning of the story.

This isn't about Navani being female I don't know if it is Gavilar or someone else but his is the only name I have.

Whether or not they understand what they made is irrelevant, whoever did it first deserves the credit.

Navani did not discover Anti-light and doesn't get the credit for it.

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Just now, Frustration said:

This isn't about Navani being female I don't know if it is Gavilar or someone else but his is the only name I have.

Whether or not they understand what they made is irrelevant, whoever did it first deserves the credit.

Navani did not discover Anti-light and doesn't get the credit for it.

You're absolutely right that Navani didn't discover anti-Light. I've never said she did, and you saying it again doesn't really add to the conversation. 

1) There was no known way* to create anti-Light prior to Navani and Raboniel working together in WoR.

2) Raboniel didn't actually know about anti-Light, thinking that Stormlight and Voidlight would cancel each other out.

3) Navani and her scholars accidentally discovered that the bead they had contained some form of anti-Stormlight (or anti-Voidlight, I don't remember which) when they accidentally combined them and caused an explosion.

4) Navani used her knowledge of how Light works and reacts to tones, how gems and Lights interact, etc. to develop a reproducible process to create anti-Light that no one known* had ever created before. This she gets full credit for. She didn't create the idea of anti-Light, and anti-Light existed prior to her process, just as the first human to figure out how to create fire on demand didn't invent the idea of combustion and probably had seen fire before, maybe even made use of fire to keep warm or fend off enemies.

I hope this clarifies my point. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me. I love when someone brings new, interesting information to the table in the process of telling me I'm wrong. But when they present arguments to things I haven't said and continuously misinterpret my points, I want to make sure that it isn't my fault that the person arguing against me keeps misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. 

TL:DR: Navani didn't invent anti-Light, she invented a reproducible way to create anti-Light and gets full credit for that invention.

 

 

*Known to the reader, or the characters involved in the story we're reading. The way to create it may have been discovered elsewhere and may even be common throughout the Cosmere. Hell, they may sell portable anti-Light pens in convenience stores on some planet we've never heard of. None of that pertains to the story we're reading because no one involved in this story, aside from the dead king and peripheral individuals around that king, know that anti-Light exists, much less a way to create it. We don't even know if the dead king and his cronies know what they had was anti-Light.

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3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

You're absolutely right that Navani didn't discover anti-Light. I've never said she did, and you saying it again doesn't really add to the conversation. 

1) There was no known way* to create anti-Light prior to Navani and Raboniel working together in WoR.

2) Raboniel didn't actually know about anti-Light, thinking that Stormlight and Voidlight would cancel each other out.

3) Navani and her scholars accidentally discovered that the bead they had contained some form of anti-Stormlight (or anti-Voidlight, I don't remember which) when they accidentally combined them and caused an explosion.

4) Navani used her knowledge of how Light works and reacts to tones, how gems and Lights interact, etc. to develop a reproducible process to create anti-Light that no one known* had ever created before. This she gets full credit for. She didn't create the idea of anti-Light, and anti-Light existed prior to her process, just as the first human to figure out how to create fire on demand didn't invent the idea of combustion and probably had seen fire before, maybe even made use of fire to keep warm or fend off enemies.

I hope this clarifies my point. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me. I love when someone brings new, interesting information to the table in the process of telling me I'm wrong. But when they present arguments to things I haven't said and continuously misinterpret my points, I want to make sure that it isn't my fault that the person arguing against me keeps misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. 

TL:DR: Navani didn't invent anti-Light, she invented a reproducible way to create anti-Light and gets full credit for that invention.

 

 

*Known to the reader, or the characters involved in the story we're reading. The way to create it may have been discovered elsewhere and may even be common throughout the Cosmere. Hell, they may sell portable anti-Light pens in convenience stores on some planet we've never heard of. None of that pertains to the story we're reading because no one involved in this story, aside from the dead king and peripheral individuals around that king, know that anti-Light exists, much less a way to create it. We don't even know if the dead king and his cronies know what they had was anti-Light.

How did Gavilar get it if the process they used was not reproduceable?

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How did Gavilar get it if the process they used was not reproduceable?

  1. How did Gavilar get it?
  2. If there is one of something, is that proof that there's an easily and humanly (no Shard involved, no off-Roshar magic involved, etc.) reproducible method to create that thing (yes, I added "easily and humanly" to the definition)
  3. If no one in a story who matters knows how to do something and someone within that story develops a way to do that thing, does the hypothetical fictional inventor get credit or do we assume that the method to create the thing already existed somewhere else and they just got the information to create it via telepathic osmosis or something?
  4. The Aztecs created pyramids in Central America around the same time the Egyptians created pyramids in North Africa. Which one gets credit?
  5. Bernoulli developed L'Hôpital's rule. Why did L'Hôpital get credit?

I'm sure you're positioning that a future source of conflict will be someone close to Gavilar telling Navani that she didn't discover anything, that others already knew how to make anti-Light but were smart enough not to let the enemy get it. That would be a great future storyline and I'd welcome it. However, as it stands right now, that isn't a storyline and I can't use it as evidence that Navani didn't develop something completely new.

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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Navani wasn't doing any financial backing during the occupation of Urithiru. Raboniel, an actual scholar, gave her full credit for her part in their discoveries, considered Navani an equal, and even got a better perspective of human abilities based almost entirely on their interactions.

I agree with Leuthie here. I think Navani is a great character who absolutely earned her bond with the Sibling. The fact that there were other candidates with valid points in their favour doesn’t detract from Navani’s worthiness. 

And Navani gets massive props from me for all the work she has done. Not just her work with anti-light during the occupation, but the years she spent organising scientific research. Organisational roles are vital in scientific research and innovation. Getting resources to the right people in the right place at the right time is how it all happens. Finding and sharing relevant information so that people’s findings are actually useful and not sitting around gathering dust. 

Navani, and everyone like her, absolutely deserve credit. 

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There is a difference between mass production and inventing.

Gavilar or someone close to him created Anti-Voidlight and Navani actually saw this and used it to get what she was looking for.

Also creating the Anti tone wasn’t hard. She saw in a book Destructive Interference and she used Intent.

The hard part was making that come together with Voidlight which didn’t take her to long only 2 weeks max and probably not that.

In the end she made an easily repeatable and accessible process building off the work of others, which is completely fine and worthy thing.

But does it make her deserve lots of credit? She will get some yah but it will be mostly undeserved, the credit for Anti voidlight lies solely on Gavilar and Co

Im going to give an example here: please don’t analyze it to much and fact check it

Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb he was the first one to do it and got all the credit.

If someone at the same time across the world came up with the light bulb immediately afterwards all by themselves they would receive nothing. End Example 

So Navani only gets credit for the mass production not the product 

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:
  1. How did Gavilar get it?
  2. If there is one of something, is that proof that there's an easily and humanly (no Shard involved, no off-Roshar magic involved, etc.) reproducible method to create that thing (yes, I added "easily and humanly" to the definition)
  3. If no one in a story who matters knows how to do something and someone within that story develops a way to do that thing, does the hypothetical fictional inventor get credit or do we assume that the method to create the thing already existed somewhere else and they just got the information to create it via telepathic osmosis or something?
  4. The Aztecs created pyramids in Central America around the same time the Egyptians created pyramids in North Africa. Which one gets credit?
  5. Bernoulli developed L'Hôpital's rule. Why did L'Hôpital get credit?

I'm sure you're positioning that a future source of conflict will be someone close to Gavilar telling Navani that she didn't discover anything, that others already knew how to make anti-Light but were smart enough not to let the enemy get it. That would be a great future storyline and I'd welcome it. However, as it stands right now, that isn't a storyline and I can't use it as evidence that Navani didn't develop something completely new.

We only have one known method of making Anti-light, so I think it's safe to assume that that is how Gavilar got his.

There is no method of making Voidlight without Odium, and the only way that Navani can get it is via the Rhythm of Prayer However Gavilar was able to get some and make Anti-Voidlight without the Rhythm of Prayer while Taln still held, so you can't even amek the case that what she did was harder.

Two people made the T.V. at about the same time yet you can only name Philo T. Farmswoth, why? Becasue he did it first.

Edited by Frustration
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I feel like everyone in this thread is razor focused on Anti-Voidlight and ignoring the elephant in the room - The Rhythm of War. Gavilar didn't have a sphere with Warlight in it and Raboniel didn't believe that Stormlight and Voidlight could mix. Navani was the driving force behind that discovery; she has worth as a scholar. 

I also feel that her perceived worth as a scholar has nothing to do with what was posited. Is she worthy of Bondsmith powers? The only thing I can really think of that might answer that is how her actions fit the Oaths of that Order. For example, Kaladin is extremely driven to protect people and is very effective at it, which makes him the archetypal Windrunner. So is Navani's goal in life to unite instead of divide? Offhand, I'm not sure, someone would need to do a deep dive analyzing her choices and actions. I'd say she isn't interested in dividing people at the very least. But, I can't say she's as driven to unite people as much as Dalinar is. As such, I have doubts she'll make it past the Third Ideal. 

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I feel like everyone in this thread is razor focused on Anti-Voidlight and ignoring the elephant in the room - The Rhythm of War. Gavilar didn't have a sphere with Warlight in it and Raboniel didn't believe that Stormlight and Voidlight could mix. Navani was the driving force behind that discovery; she has worth as a scholar. 

I also feel that her perceived worth as a scholar has nothing to do with what was posited. Is she worthy of Bondsmith powers? The only thing I can really think of that might answer that is how her actions fit the Oaths of that Order. For example, Kaladin is extremely driven to protect people and is very effective at it, which makes him the archetypal Windrunner. So is Navani's goal in life to unite instead of divide? Offhand, I'm not sure, someone would need to do a deep dive analyzing her choices and actions. I'd say she isn't interested in dividing people at the very least. But, I can't say she's as driven to unite people as much as Dalinar is. As such, I have doubts she'll make it past the Third Ideal. 

She sang a song, that’s it. There was no real work. It was something that was never tried and when she tried it it worked.

How is that an ‘elephant’

Okay she’s a decent scholar. So what, it doesn’t make her worth the title of Bondsmith

Edited by Bejardin1250
Moved a word that got misplaced
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35 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

She

sang a song, that’s it. There was no real work. It was something that was never tried and when she tried it it worked.

How is that an ‘elephant’

Okay she’s a decent scholar. So what, it doesn’t make her worth the title of Bondsmith

First you're not addressing the right question. It was posited "she is not worthy of the powers of a Bondsmith." I'm not entirely certain she has the title of Bondsmith, we only saw her swear the First Ideal, which doesn't explicitly make you a Knight. Like I said, this thread has been focused on her worthiness as a scholar, but being a scholar isn't what makes someone worthy to be a Bondsmith. So, what does? And why? Simply stating that she isn't doesn't make it true. 

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2 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

First you're not addressing the right question. It was posited "she is not worthy of the powers of a Bondsmith.

Even more so with the powers. She is no more worthy than the Ardents that work for her.

 

3 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Simply stating that she isn't doesn't make it true. 

You got to prove you have what it takes. I don’t believe she did if you disagree that’s your opinion. 

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Even more so with the powers. She is no more worthy than the Ardents that work for her.

 

You got to prove you have what it takes. I don’t believe she did if you disagree that’s your opinion. 

And thus far you have yet to prove your claim. 

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

And thus far you have yet to prove your claim. 

She didn’t do anything meaningful and hard that took sacrifice. 
She played scientists for a week and came back and sweet talked the Sibling into giving her the bond against their will.

Fine I’ll prove it to you, read RoW.     

you back? Point proven

And as Frustration said “What’s your proof that she is worthy”

 

Edited by Bejardin1250
Had to add something
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24 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

And thus far you have yet to prove your claim. 

The burden is on you to prove that she is worthy.

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Are we allowed to just say that. “ You prove it not me”

huh

I’m gonna go and edit my other post

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8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Are we allowed to just say that. “ You prove it not me”

huh

I’m gonna go and edit my other post

Well the majority of people are not worthy of Bondsmith powers in any degree so if someone is worthy they need to show that, so it should be proven not assumed

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49 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Are we allowed to just say that. “ You prove it not me”

huh

I’m gonna go and edit my other post

 

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well the majority of people are not worthy of Bondsmith powers in any degree so if someone is worthy they need to show that, so it should be proven not assumed

I already said I'm not sure one way or the other. I was hoping someone would tell me either what they mean by "worthy" or why they believe she's unworthy. All I got was "you gotta prove what it takes" which is excessively vague. If that's all I'm going to get, I don't really think we're having a productive conversation so I guess I'll leave it here.

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Just now, Harrycrapper said:

 

I already said I'm not sure one way or the other. I was hoping someone would tell me either what they mean by "worthy" or why they believe she's unworthy. All I got was "you gotta prove what it takes" which is excessively vague. If that's all I'm going to get, I don't really think we're having a productive conversation so I guess I'll leave it here.

How's this

Navani spent the entirety of Rhythm of War asking wether or not she could, not wether or not she should. That is a bad precedent for anyone with that kind of power.

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Posted (edited)

Navani unified scholars and others into a unit to create the flying thing. She kept her team together and convinced Raboniel of her and her team's value long enough to stay alive. She worked together with her enemy toward a common cause. She helped the Sibling discover their missing tones, giving the Sibling the ability to create the Bond with her. When in a position to unify, she has always done so. Rhythm of War starts with her leading a team of cooks, servers, housekeepers and soldiers to put on a huge party that keeps getting bigger by the minute.

She's not in the same position to show her unifying nature that Dalinar is, but go through every scene she's in it shows her working to bring people together toward a common cause. Every single one.

Try it; look through her scenes. If the definition of Bondsmith is a unifier, she's as good an example as any.

Edited by Leuthie
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