discuss What if hoid was the god-killer?

[TheMusicMan]

What if cephandris was the weapon. He could have held "Destroy" long enough after that it warped his spirit web to the point that he was dependent on its existence to "destroy" anyone/thing or be destroyed. The reason he can't be harmed/harm is because in the spiritual realm his spirit web is literally missing the piece that let's another web hurt it or be hurt by it.(It's mumbo jumbo-ey. I know.) He worked with the 5 scholars to bind "Destroy" so no one could use its power. The impossible thing he's trying to do is change "Destroy" to "Destroy Evil". That's also how a dawnshard is different from the others. That dawnshard is nightblood. Actually I guess it should be Nightblood.

[Frustration]

Shashara belived she could make more Nightbloods, so I don't think so.

[Random Bystander]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Shashara belived she could make more Nightbloods, so I don't think so.

Yes, but remember Vivenna's Nightblood knockoff? It's like Nightblood, but is quite different. I'm assuming it was made through Awakening, and (according to the Coppermind) Nightblood is way more powerfull.

However, this could be because Nightblood has consumed more investiture. We do know that Nightblood's power grew over time. 

[TheMusicMan]

1 hour ago, Random Bystander said:

Yes, but remember Vivenna's Nightblood knockoff? It's like Nightblood, but is quite different. I'm assuming it was made through Awakening, and (according to the Coppermind) Nightblood is way more powerfull.

However, this could be because Nightblood has consumed more investiture. We do know that Nightblood's power grew over time. 

 

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Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
#1 

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Also, asterisk leaks Grey smoke not black.Does not leak smoke but does turn people/limbs grey.

That seems to lend a bit to my theory. At least as far as Nightblood capital N goes.

I just really can't see cephandris having held some type of protectey dawnshard and that being why he can't hurt people. It feels too simple for me. It could be the binding to Nightblood did the spirit web damage too.

And warbreaker is still early in the timeline of the cosmere since cephandris uses yolish lightweaving and sand mastery, meaning the "binding" would be really early in the timeline.

 

Also! Kelsier gets the smackdown because he's more of ruin than preservation. Ruin being similar to Destroy makes the spirit web click for cephandris to be able to harm him. And the only reason it's close enough to connect to that mutilated/withered part of cephandris's(?) Spirit web is because Kelsier is a cognitive shadow with no physical connection so the spirit web has more connection to his current aspect.

What if the reason Nightblood sucks up so much investiture that its overflowing is because Destroy still hasn't become "Destroy Evil" in the Dawnshard way and the command is still trying to preform its fuction but needs more fuel to do so? Like it needs adonalsium levels of investiture but mere steel cant contain that much.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by TheMusicMan

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, TheMusicMan said:

Also, asterisk leaks Grey smoke not black.Does not leak smoke but does turn people/limbs grey.

That's Shardblades Nightblood does leak black smoke and completly destroys all matter it comes into contact with,

15 minutes ago, TheMusicMan said:

Also! Kelsier gets the smackdown because he's more of ruin than preservation. Ruin being similar to Destroy makes the spirit web click for cephandris to be able to harm him. And the only reason it's close enough to connect to that mutilated/withered part of cephandris's(?) Spirit web is because Kelsier is a cognitive shadow with no physical connection so the spirit web has more connection to his current aspect.

Actually Hoid can hurt Kel because he's already dead

5 minutes ago, TheMusicMan said:

What if the reason Nightblood sucks up so much investiture that its overflowing is because Destroy still hasn't become "Destroy Evil" in the Dawnshard way and the command is still trying to preform its fuction but needs more fuel to do so? Like it needs adonalsium levels of investiture but mere steel cant contain that much.

Please don't double post, you can edit your last one

[TheMusicMan]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's Shardblades Nightblood does leak black smoke and completly destroys all matter it comes into contact with,

Actually Hoid can hurt Kel because he's already dead

Please don't double post, you can edit your last one

No Asterisk is the name of vivennas blade 

I doubt that kel can just be hurt because hes a cognitive aspect since cephandris has to have ran into many cognitive aspects in the past and i dont trust what he's said on the subject.

Edited April 6, 2021 by TheMusicMan

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, TheMusicMan said:

No Asterisk is the name of vivennas blade 

oh, sorry I thought you were meaning an additional piece of information.

[TheMusicMan]

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tututitlookslikerain

and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people

This point still confuses me. He quite handily puts Kelsier on his rear in The Well.

So he can harm someone if he's provoked? Or is it because he knows that regardless of what he does to Kelsier it won't actually harm him?

And a lot of "harm" is in the mind. Even without a corporeal body, it would still register as pain, thus harm?

And wouldn't it still be considered physical harm, if Hoid was there physically? Applying physical harm?

Brandon Sanderson

If you re-read that scene, Hoid himself is shocked he's able to do what he does there. Let's just say he himself doesn't quite understand the issue as much as he once assumed.

ice_royale

Can we assume he cannot harm a LIVING being, but Kelsier is at that point not a living being?

Brandon Sanderson

This is the conclusion Hoid came to, so it's a pretty solid assumption.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

I don't think Brandon uses assumption on accident here. I think it is an assumption and a big one.

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Questioner

Hoid's ability to hurt Kelsier, is that due to his perceptions and beliefs or those of an external entity?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to be a bit of both but more his perceptions and beliefs. This is how a lot of things work in the Cosmere, particularly if you're where they were.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

So its definitely an external entity's(Ruin/Destroy) perception on a spiritual level, and also cephandris's perception of himself as being unable to destroy because he bound that part of his spirit web away in night blood. Then on top of that you have them being in the well of ascension. The very place where Ruin in a cognitive and spiritual sense only was trapped for at least I'd say 3-8 thousand years, just permeating the very location in his essence on the cognitive realm. 

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Random Bystander said:

Yes, but remember Vivenna's Nightblood knockoff? It's like Nightblood, but is quite different. I'm assuming it was made through Awakening, and (according to the Coppermind) Nightblood is way more powerfull.

Yes, but if he was working with them to stick a Dawnshard somewhere safe, they'd probably know it couldn't be recreated. I think it's possible it's got a Dawnshard of some kind, to prevent proliferation of Vessel killers, but the Scholars would imo have to be unaware of what it was and what they were doing, since Vasher and Shashara both believed the latter could release the secret and it could be mass-produced.

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, TheMusicMan said:

What if cephandris was the weapon. He could have held "Destroy" long enough after that it warped his spirit web to the point that he was dependent on its existence to "destroy" anyone/thing or be destroyed. The reason he can't be harmed/harm is because in the spiritual realm his spirit web is literally missing the piece that let's another web hurt it or be hurt by it.(It's mumbo jumbo-ey. I know.) He worked with the 5 scholars to bind "Destroy" so no one could use its power. The impossible thing he's trying to do is change "Destroy" to "Destroy Evil". That's also how a dawnshard is different from the others. That dawnshard is nightblood. Actually I guess it should be Nightblood.

Assuming there is such thing as a Destruction Dawnshard (which is a big if, it's likely Change is not only Adonalsium's will for things to become better but also his will for things to never be the same. By the way,  Ruin is not the embodiment of destruction but of irreversibility) then it's very unlikely that Hoid being a Dawnsavant of Destruction would make him unable to hit people.

As for Hoid being the weapon, I think its very likely he was at least it's spearhead. I think the anti-adonalsium group found a way to have people share Dawnshards and have people bear multiple Dawnshard at once, gave them to Hoid while he was sharing each with four persons (the orginal sixteen) so together they would have a big enough breadth of understanding to unravel Adonalsium

As for Nightblood, I do suspect a Dawnshard was use to make him but it's more likely it was as a way to increase Shashara's Awakening powers and not as a way to feed Nightblood.

4 hours ago, Random Bystander said:

However, this could be because Nightblood has consumed more investiture. We do know that Nightblood's power grew over time. 

It's likely he ate thousands of Breaths just at the battle of Twilight's Falls

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Also, asterisk leaks Grey smoke not black.Does not leak smoke but does turn people/limbs grey.

That's because she's not oversaturated yet

4 hours ago, TheMusicMan said:

And warbreaker is still early in the timeline of the cosmere since cephandris uses yolish lightweaving and sand mastery, meaning the "binding" would be really early in the timeline.

Warbreaker is happened between HoA and WoK

3 hours ago, TheMusicMan said

No Asterisk is the name of vivennas blade 

It's not, it's only the fan name

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I doubt that kel can just be hurt because hes a cognitive aspect since cephandris has to have ran into many cognitive aspects in the past and i dont trust what he's said on the subject.

If it was true he wouldn't believe it

3 hours ago, TheMusicMan said:

I don't think Brandon uses assumption on accident here.

Of course, he wants to keep us guessing.

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So its definitely an external entity's(Ruin/Destroy) perception on a spiritual level, and also cephandris's perception of himself as being unable to destroy because he bound that part of his spirit web away in night blood. Then on top of that you have them being in the well of ascension. The very place where Ruin in a cognitive and spiritual sense only was trapped for at least I'd say 3-8 thousand years, just permeating the very location in his essence on the cognitive realm. 

Dawnshards don't have perception

[TheMusicMan]

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yes, but if he was working with them to stick a Dawnshard somewhere safe, they'd probably know it couldn't be recreated. I think it's possible it's got a Dawnshard of some kind, to prevent proliferation of Vessel killers, but the Scholars would imo have to be unaware of what it was and what they were doing, since Vasher and Shashara both believed the latter could release the secret and it could be mass-produced.

Oh I definitely believe cephandris pulled a fast one on the scholars.

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Assuming there is such thing as a Destruction Dawnshard (which is a big if, it's likely Change is not only Adonalsium's will for things to become better but also his will for things to never be the same. By the way,  Ruin is not the embodiment of destruction but of irreversibility) then it's very unlikely that Hoid being a Dawnsavant of Destruction would make him unable to hit people.

We haven't really seen the savantism of different major character really affect their abilities or lives in a major way, I really cant come up with a better idea that fits with savantism and also deals with preservation having been a shard and not a dawnshard, but this is why I finally made an account. (edit) As far as I recall we haven't seen someone survive a hemalurgic spiking yet which i imagine is the closest thing to what im imagining happened to create Nightblood just using breath instead of metal to tear off a bit of a spirit web. Yes Ruin is not the embodiment of destruction, but he has become much more polarized over the years on scadrial. I was running on the supposition that it was close but not exact and that the only reason it was enough was that Kel was a cognitive shadow and super linked to Ruin already.

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Warbreaker is happened between HoA and WoK

i wasnt aware of this but the five scholars are still insanely earlier. They have to be pre-recreance and post-ashyn. Id guess somewhere around the 2nd-5th desolation. Simply because they had to go to roshar and see the shardblades or honorblades in action. I think its unlikely they came any later than that because the desolations started getting closer together and I don't see vasher abandoning such helpless people to their deaths by revenant rock people. So that puts Nightbloods creation somewhere in the first 3-4 thousand years of the 10 thousand year timespan for the cosmere.

16 hours ago, mathiau said:

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I doubt that kel can just be hurt because hes a cognitive aspect since cephandris has to have ran into many cognitive aspects in the past and i dont trust what he's said on the subject.

If it was true he wouldn't believe it

i dont understand what you mean here.

16 hours ago, mathiau said:

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Also, asterisk leaks Grey smoke not black.Does not leak smoke but does turn people/limbs grey.

That's because she's not oversaturated yet

I heavily question whether vasher would ever allow another Nightblood to be created and something in Nightblood is actively changing investiture without corrupting it. The only way I see that happening with the "breath" system is some type of powerful command that grants understanding(in the way a dawnshard does), causing intent to exist separate from the awakener. Said separate intent(and sentience, cause lets face it the sword is sentient) is only concerned with fulfilling the command but cant because it doesn't have enough investiture to change a dawnshard. So the command is still trying to carry out its function but limited by the amount of investiture steel can hold.

Also I don't see sentience being creatable other than by adonalsium's "understanding".

16 hours ago, mathiau said:

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So its definitely an external entity's(Ruin/Destroy) perception on a spiritual level, and also cephandris's perception of himself as being unable to destroy because he bound that part of his spirit web away in night blood. Then on top of that you have them being in the well of ascension. The very place where Ruin in a cognitive and spiritual sense only was trapped for at least I'd say 3-8 thousand years, just permeating the very location in his essence on the cognitive realm. 

Dawnshards don't have perception

But Nightblood does and so does Ruin.

 

16 hours ago, mathiau said:

20 hours ago, TheMusicMan said:

I don't think Brandon uses assumption on accident here.

Of course, he wants to keep us guessing

Well yes, but I'm running with my theory here.

Edited April 7, 2021 by TheMusicMan

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, TheMusicMan said:

They have to be pre-recreance and post-ashyn. Id guess somewhere around the 2nd-5th desolation. Simply because they had to go to roshar and see the shardblades or honorblades in action.

I mean.... deadblades. No need for it to be pre-Recreance.

[TheMusicMan]

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ShadowSgt

The history of Nightblood, we know that it's created by knowledge of the Shardblades. Would you say that Vasher's first trip to Roshar coincided with a certain individual that tried to take over all of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

You're talking about Sadees?

ShadowSgt

The Sunmaker?

Brandon Sanderson

...I'd have to look at the timeline, but it was not-- it is not something I have present in my mind. It could have overlapped. So, it might overlap, but there's not a cause-and-effect there.

ShadowSgt

So, Sunmaker and Vasher are sep--

Brandon Sanderson

Are not the same people, good question. Sunmaker is legitimately Dalinar's ancestor.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

 

18 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean.... deadblades. No need for it to be pre-Recreance.

You're right. The timeline is now all messed up.

 

[mathiau]

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We haven't really seen the savantism of different major character really affect their abilities or lives in a major way

Fair point

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I really cant come up with a better idea that fits with savantism and also deals with preservation having been a shard and not a dawnshard, but this is why I finally made an account.

Preservation is the embodiment of stillness, not the embodiment of not hurting people.

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(edit) As far as I recall we haven't seen someone survive a hemalurgic spiking yet which i imagine is the closest thing to what im imagining happened to create Nightblood just using breath instead of metal to tear off a bit of a spirit web.

I don't understand how the magic of the Goddess of gifts would tear of one's spirit web

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i wasnt aware of this but the five scholars are still insanely earlier. They have to be pre-recreance and post-ashyn. Id guess somewhere around the 2nd-5th desolation. Simply because they had to go to roshar and see the shardblades or honorblades in action. I think its unlikely they came any later than that because the desolations started getting closer together and I don't see vasher abandoning such helpless people to their deaths by revenant rock people. So that puts Nightbloods creation somewhere in the first 3-4 thousand years of the 10 thousand year timespan for the cosmere.

Nightblood's creation was basically the last thing that happen in the Manywar before Peacegiver put an end to it, which put Nightblood's creation around 300 years befor Warbreaker

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i dont understand what you mean here.

If Hoid already had tried hitting CSs and it had not worked then he wouldn't believe that he could hit Kelsier because he was a CS

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I heavily question whether vasher would ever allow another Nightblood to be created

To be fair Vivenna's sword is probably an attempt at creating a fixed Nightblood. Also Vasher isn't the one who decide what other Awakeners do.

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and something in Nightblood is actively changing investiture without corrupting it.

Nope

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Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

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 Also I don't see sentience being creatable other than by adonalsium's "understanding".

Er... Seons? Skazes? Truesprens? We have WoBs that if you put a lot of investiture in the same place for long enough it become sentient (or sapient of you put a very big amount)

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The only way I see that happening with the "breath" system is some type of powerful command that grants understanding(in the way a dawnshard does), causing intent to exist separate from the awakener. Said separate intent(and sentience, cause lets face it the sword is sentient) is only concerned with fulfilling the command but cant because it doesn't have enough investiture to change a dawnshard. So the command is still trying to carry out its function but limited by the amount of investiture steel can hold.

While it's possible, basically every hypothesis I've seen for the 4th Dawnshard in the Change-Unite/Bind-Survive-??? system makes more sense to use in the creation of Awakened objects. Even some possibility for the fourth Dawnshard in the Change-Unite/Bind-Destroy-??? system works better (Be and Exists for example)

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Er... Seons? Skazes? Truesprens? We have WoBs that if you put a lot of investiture in the same place for long enough it become sentient (or sapient of you put a very big amount)

Or the Dor it's somewhat aware

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Or the Dor it's somewhat aware

Not yet, but probably soon

Quote

Questioner

Shards. Is it possible for them to think outside-- without having a person they're working through?

Brandon Sanderson

The power left alone around people will eventually gain a kind of sentience.

Questioner

Kind of like the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So it is possible. It doesn't always happen, and sometimes it takes a while. For example, the Dor? Basic, rudimentary, feeling only. It's not-- you know.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

Not yet, but probably soon

I said somewhat

[TheMusicMan]

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't understand how the magic of the Goddess of gifts would tear of one's spirit web

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Rolling with the theory here of "Destroy" being torn from cephandris's spirit web to make Nightblood

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

To be fair Vivenna's sword is probably an attempt at creating a fixed Nightblood. Also Vasher isn't the one who decide what other Awakeners do.

But he would have to share the knowledge of how to make it.

 

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

Er... Seons? Skazes? Truesprens? We have WoBs that if you put a lot of investiture in the same place for long enough it become sentient (or sapient of you put a very big amount)

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All things created by a shard or adonalsium? Therefore made by something with a gods understanding which i feel brandon is making into a very important thing.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, TheMusicMan said:

But he would have to share the knowledge of how to make it.

Nope, annotations reveal that Yesteel knows the secret.