theory Spren can Voidbind, not people

[KandraAllomancer]

First of all, I cannot take full credit for this theory, as the basic idea of “inverted Nahel Bond” comes from this post by @Seloun

While re-reading Oathbringer I realized that it actually explains most, if not all, weird things and quotes about corrupted spren and Voidbinding, so I decided to write down all arguments in favor of it. The basic premise is that Voidbinding (at least the form shown in the Voidbinding chart) is an extension of Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond, caused by adding Odium's Investiture to the Radiant spren. As a result, a person gets two Surges from the bond, and the spren gets two matching Voidbindings, explaining the similarity between the two charts. This would make Voidbinding a magic system of all Rosharan Shards, with its name probably being a portmanteau of Odium/Void + Surgebinding

Here are all the hints I was able to find:

• The Surgebinding chart shares the color theme with the map of Roshar, as beings from the Physical Realm get the powers; the Voidbinding chart using the colors of the Shadesmar map hints at spren being the ones to get powers
• Odium's Tone is now a pure Tone of Roshar, and  Eshonai's last chapter in RoW implies that all Tones and Rhytms form a wonderful harmony. Spren getting powers and, by extension, a more equal footing with people, seems to be compatible with that way more than if Voidbinding was a separate thing purely of Odium. Also, spren now essentially share mortality with people, so getting powers would be a natural next step
• Voidbinding being the cousin of Old Magic makes a lot of sense now: people get Old Magic powers by being changed by the Nighwatcher, spren get powers by being changed by Sja-anat
• Corrupted Truthwatchers cannot control their visions, but their spren seem to have at least some level of control. Glys can record the visions to show to other people (possibly similar to how Lightweavers can capture Memories), and Tumi knows exactly what is going on during Rlain's first vision, even though Rlain is clearly surprised by the whole thing
• Glys having access to futuresight beyond what he shows Renarin would explain him talking in future tense and providing constant protection against Odium's futuresight
• Glys also wants to give his sorrow to Renarin, hinting at the reversal of typical roles in Voidbinding
• Tumi thanks Sja-anat for his eyes in her interlude in RoW, presumably referring to the futuresight

We know about corrupted Truthwatchers and futuresight, which is most probably the Voidbinding of Illumination, but what about Progression? I believe that there might be some hints in Oathbringer about that. The quotes below were sometimes interpreted as Renarin having a gemheart:

Quote

 Jasnah moved into the temple, gripping her Shardblade, stepping on slippered feet. The red spren rising from Renarin—like a snowflake made of crystal and light—seemed to sense her and panicked, disappearing into Renarin with a puff.

Quote

It will be … great … vast … wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin’s heart. It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

There's no way Renarin naturally has a gemheart, but what if Glys used his Voidish Progression to grow one in his body to have some place to hide? It wouldn't need to be big, as a cremling gemheart was enough for Tumi in RoW, and it would explain a lot, in my opinion

Edited April 6, 2021 by KandraAllomancer

[Infinity Sliver]

I can't comment on the rest but for the Glys part,I think youre reading too much into it. I specially remember the sorrow part,and interpreted it as just a manner of speech,even him in the future tense. I don't have the book with me right now but yea

Also,the protection against future sight might just be him been able to see into the future,so,just having that possibility is the constant protection

[KandraAllomancer]

5 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

I can't comment on the rest but for the Glys part,I think youre reading too much into it. I specially remember the sorrow part,and interpreted it as just a manner of speech,even him in the future tense. I don't have the book with me right now but yea

That is obviously possible, but Tumi seems to share his fondness for future tense, and Dreaming-though-Awake doesn't. The simplest explanation I can find is that the Enlightening affects their perception of the world somehow

5 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

Also,the protection against future sight might just be him been able to see into the future,so,just having that possibility is the constant protection

On the other hand, the protection from futuresight works on the same principle as electrum/atium:

Quote

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

and if you're out of either metal your protection is gone. It's not a perfect analogy, though, since atium allows you to see only seconds into future.

It's hard to tell how long-term visions interact with each other, but the best mechanism I can think of is (borrowing terminology from computer science) cache invalidation. Odium predicts the future, but each time Renarin has a vision, things change - but Odium can still make new predictions. That would prevent Odium from making truly long-term plans, but planning , let's say, a week ahead (I'm not sure how often the visions occur) would still be a possibility. Only a more or less constant access to futuresight offers true protection in this case

[therunner]

@KandraAllomancer I like the theory. Interestingly in that WoB you shared (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11882)

Quote

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

he does not say that it was Renarin who saw the future, only that when someone else is seeing future it creates ripples.

In other WoBs on Renarin he also avoids saying that Renarin voidbinds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9541) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/109/#e1426). Brandon also pointed to the voidbinding chart when someone asked about the visions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8461), which means the visions are of Voidbinding, not necessarily that Renarin is Voidbinder. He also says that about Renarin in WoR that he was not in much control of the visions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/109/#e1425)

Quote

Kogiopsis

So when Renarin was writing the countdown to the Everstorm, how conscious was he of what he was doing and how in control was he?

Brandon Sanderson

He was not terribly in control, he was somewhat conscious. But you will find out a lot more about this, that-- Yes.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

 

[Ixthos]

12 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

It's hard to tell how long-term visions interact with each other, but the best mechanism I can think of is (borrowing terminology from computer science) cache invalidation. Odium predicts the future, but each time Renarin has a vision, things change - but Odium can still make new predictions. That would prevent Odium from making truly long-term plans, but planning , let's say, a week ahead (I'm not sure how often the visions occur) would still be a possibility. Only a more or less constant access to futuresight offers true protection in this case

I think the complexity is more closely linked to the idea in Dune, that multiple people seeing the future interfere with each other. For example, if I gave you the ability to predict the winner of a competition in order to win the most you can in a bet, you would know who to bet on. But if hundreds of people know, then suddenly even though that person will win you all won't get as much. And suppose the person you are betting on suddenly finds out lots of people are betting on them, so they become more uncertain and so now won't win - but you can now see they won't win, so you withdraw your bet ... as does everyone else, so now that person is more likely to win again, etc. Multiple people knowing how things will unfold suddenly means that no-one can know how they will unfold, because they will all take actions that are just as informed on the future as your own.

Or, in other words:

 

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I think the complexity is more closely linked to the idea in Dune, that multiple people seeing the future interfere with each other. For example, if I gave you the ability to predict the winner of a competition in order to win the most you can in a bet, you would know who to bet on. But if hundreds of people know, then suddenly even though that person will win you all won't get as much. And suppose the person you are betting on suddenly finds out lots of people are betting on them, so they become more uncertain and so now won't win - but you can now see they won't win, so you withdraw your bet ... as does everyone else, so now that person is more likely to win again, etc. Multiple people knowing how things will unfold suddenly means that no-one can know how they will unfold, because they will all take actions that are just as informed on the future as your own.

Or, in other words:

 

I would upvote thrice if I could, for Dune reference, Princess Bride reference, and for the idea as a whole

The Dune analogy I think does mostly hold-up, if Odium is Paul, then Renarin is Guildsman. While Renarin/Glys' futuresight is more limited than Odiums, it does create pockets which are hard/impossible for Odium to see, creating space for action without interference. This was exploited to kill Odium.

[Infinity Sliver]

I'm still of the mind that it's not Renarin actively using futuresight,but his ability to use futuresight that's the problem. I would use a Bleach reference....This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules it,i'll use it.

In Bleach there is a character called Urahara Kisuke,who is called one of the Special War Powers of Soul Society by the Vanderreich not because of his power,but his "means",which is basically,any plan they might have,he could and will come up with a counter plan,although they dont know what that could be. 

Going Back to Renarin,it's his potential to use futuresight that blanks out Odium,because him using Futuresight at any point would diverge from Odium's Futuresight

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

@KandraAllomancer I like the theory. Interestingly in that WoB you shared (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11882)

he does not say that it was Renarin who saw the future, only that when someone else is seeing future it creates ripples.

In other WoBs on Renarin he also avoids saying that Renarin voidbinds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9541) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/109/#e1426). Brandon also pointed to the voidbinding chart when someone asked about the visions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8461), which means the visions are of Voidbinding, not necessarily that Renarin is Voidbinder. He also says that about Renarin in WoR that he was not in much control of the visions (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/109/#e1425)

 

That would put it in conflict with this WoB

Spoiler

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Though if @Argent could tell us if the "He Voidbinds" is his own wording or Brandon's that would be very helpful

[Ookla of Colors]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:47 AM, Infinitysliver said:

I can't comment on the rest but for the Glys part,I think youre reading too much into it. I specially remember the sorrow part,and interpreted it as just a manner of speech,even him in the future tense. I don't have the book with me right now but yea

Also,the protection against future sight might just be him been able to see into the future,so,just having that possibility is the constant protection

Like Atium.

[therunner]

43 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would put it in conflict with this WoB

  Hide contents

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Though if @Argent could tell us if the "He Voidbinds" is his own wording or Brandon's that would be very helpful

Yeah, my supposition depends on if Brandon only pointed to the Voidbinding page when asked about visions, and did not actually say that Renarin Voidbinds.

[Infinity Sliver]

30 minutes ago, Gneorndin said:

Like Atium.

Yea in a way,except i mean for this,it's whether it's actively burning atium vs you been able to burn Atium cancelling the Futuresight. When Atium is used,the cancelling is always in the immediate future,but for the long term Futuresight,where you are making predictions to act on,say,a year from now,the potential for Futuresight from someone else can throw a wrench in your plans,thats what im trying to say.

TLDR : 

for long term Futuresight,someone else potentially using Futuresight as well as immediately using Futuresight will throw a wrench in your Futuresight

Edited April 7, 2021 by Infinitysliver

[Harkain]

Just to build onto this.

The idea that void binding is something done by spren specifically (maybe gaining access through something relating to particular emotions. So for Glys that would be sorrow?) could explain the confusion about the Fused void binding despite them manipulating the surges. The fused would be using some form of void binding in order to hack surge binding and give themselves access to different surges. So they'd be surge binding via void binding. 

At the moment we don't really know enough for any solid theories unfortunately. I do think Sanderson avoiding saying the Renarin is having the future sight is a big point in favour of this tho. 

Just as a general note, I like the idea of Voidbinding as expanding the concept behind a Spren to give it additional powers. Would explain why Sja-Anat calls it "enlightening" instead of just "recreating". It's about expanding what that spren is, making that wind spren a little bit more than just a wind spren, making that creation spren a bit more than a creation spren or making that mist-spren a bit more than a mist-spren. (Imo I also like the idea of that process involving adding some level of emotion to the spren, so not just wind but "joyful wind" or "angry wind", not just creation but "greedy creation" or "passionate creation")

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, Harkain said:

Just to build onto this.

The idea that void binding is something done by spren specifically (maybe gaining access through something relating to particular emotions. So for Glys that would be sorrow?) could explain the confusion about the Fused void binding despite them manipulating the surges. The fused would be using some form of void binding in order to hack surge binding and give themselves access to different surges. So they'd be surge binding via void binding. 

At the moment we don't really know enough for any solid theories unfortunately. I do think Sanderson avoiding saying the Renarin is having the future sight is a big point in favour of this tho. 

Just as a general note, I like the idea of Voidbinding as expanding the concept behind a Spren to give it additional powers. Would explain why Sja-Anat calls it "enlightening" instead of just "recreating". It's about expanding what that spren is, making that wind spren a little bit more than just a wind spren, making that creation spren a bit more than a creation spren or making that mist-spren a bit more than a mist-spren. (Imo I also like the idea of that process involving adding some level of emotion to the spren, so not just wind but "joyful wind" or "angry wind", not just creation but "greedy creation" or "passionate creation")

Fused are never said to be Voidbinding

[Argent]

On 4/7/2021 at 9:21 AM, Frustration said:

Though if @Argent could tell us if the "He Voidbinds" is his own wording or Brandon's that would be very helpful

My supposition, my words. You can find my (old, and now locked) topic on The Page™ for full details, but the super TL;DR is that I said "something's weird with Renarin's visions", Brandon offered to point me to a page that has a clue if I kept it secret, I agreed, he pointed to the chart we would later learn is the Voidbinding chart. So this is a follow-up from that, though how much Brandon remembers from our original exchange is unclear.

[Aither of Olumpia]

This is a cool theory!

My only issue I guess is that some spren seem to already have powers, at least in the physical realms. We see Syl and hear of windspren using adhesion all the time.