How did ancient Radiants + Heralds break?

[Could Be Fire]

@nehalem makes some key points I think. In particular, I think the fact that a majority of the fused are completely insane, taking a huge toll on their ability to fight effectively. We see Raboniel talk about how the Fused are stuck in their ways. Instead of the Heralds v. Fused battle that's repeated 10+ times over millennia, they're facing something entirely new to them. We've also seen very few of the Unmade in true action, and are explicitly missing the most powerful (BAM).  I think it's also important to remember that the Singer is made up entirely of people that were almost non-sentient before the last year while humans have had 4500+ years of advancement. While previous, humanity, partially in the last few desolations, lost massive amounts of progress. Based on Taln's speech multiple times they were thrown back to pre-bronze age-level tech. 

Previous desolations were also close, with humanity being near destroyed, but humanity did win every time. What broke the heralds was all of the torture in the meantime, and the fact that they could never really win, just fight in a constant cycle. The Radients were fine until after

 

 

 

On 4/5/2021 at 1:31 PM, Lanaya said:

So this is where I argue for Urithiru. Shouldn't the heralds + radiants recognized that this place is the best base of operations they have? Shouldn't they have tried to recruit everyone they could to this tower? I doubt the people would disagree to go if they were asked by a god/radiant.

As for why the Radients did keep everyone at Uthuriu... It requires abandoning to rest of the territory, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of the war. If the Humans were fine living in their little area (like Shinovar) the whole problem wouldn't exist. 

Also...humanity likely wasn't a completely unified force. I can see during the desolations that Heralds+Honor may have been able to unite most humanity but between desolations? I think it was a lot more like modern-day Roshar. Dalinar is a bondsmith and a nearly a shard vessel but he was unable to include Shinovar, Iri, Rira, or even some parts of the Azish Empire, Jah Kaved, and Alethkar in the coalition. 

Like we know humanity warred with themselves, as Nohadon says. Even the o.g. Ashlyn refugees weren't completely unified, as Dalinar's peer into Nale's past shows. Even the KR orders didn't always work together (the WoB on the role of the Skybreakers points to that) We also know a lot of human races on Roshar have some level of Singer ancestry (Alethi hair striping, Hezardian fingernails, Horneater teeth, etc.) so there had to have been a non-insignificant population of Singer and Humans living together at some point to produce those mixed kids. There are also all the other groups (the Aimians, Iriali if they immigrated separately from the Ashlynites, etc.) that don't fit neatly into the conflict. It was never as simple as all of Humanity vs. all of the Singers.

[cfphelps]

On 4/5/2021 at 2:30 PM, nehalem said:

I think there are a number of things that would have increased the performance of Odium's forces in the past

 

(6) Overrating of Knights Radiant combat abilities.  Windrunners are one of the top fighting orders, and Kaladin was basically a prodigy even before becoming a Radiant.  Jasnah, even at the 4th oath, was not as impressive.

 

I agree with you in general but I have a nitpick.  When was Jasnah not impressive?  She was devastating at the Battle of Thaylenah.  In RoW she was fighting to "experience how it is on the front line" and was purposely restricting/hiding her surge binding abilities, so I don't think that particular battle is a fair representation of what a 4th oath KR was capable of.  The other times we've seen her fight was pretty impressive, I think.

[Elegy]

The Heralds now are not comparable to what they were during the previous Desolations. They were all there, they were all sane, and they were all powered by Honor himself. They should have been able to completely destroy entire armies. Maybe one could argue against this using Adolin's "a shardbearer can't hold a city" line of thought, but I'm skeptical. All things considered, I also think that Odium's forces seem under-powered, and if there is a reason for it that we don't know yet, I feel we should have known it by now.

3 hours ago, cfphelps said:

I agree with you in general but I have a nitpick.  When was Jasnah not impressive?  She was devastating at the Battle of Thaylenah.  In RoW she was fighting to "experience how it is on the front line" and was purposely restricting/hiding her surge binding abilities, so I don't think that particular battle is a fair representation of what a 4th oath KR was capable of.  The other times we've seen her fight was pretty impressive, I think.

To nitpick a bit further, neither was the Battle of Thaylenah, to be fair, since she had access to abnormal quantities of stormlight. But yeah, I agree - definitely more on the impressive side for sure either way 

[Could Be Fire]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

The Heralds now are not comparable to what they were during the previous Desolations. They were all there, they were all sane, and they were all powered by Honor himself. They should have been able to completely destroy entire armies. Maybe one could argue against this using Adolin's "a shardbearer can't hold a city" line of thought, but I'm skeptical.

That's a really good point. We see in ROW that Nale effortlessly cuts through Szeth (who in turn has easily defeated most others) in the one moment so far that he actually deigns to get on the battlefield, and that's without using the Divison surge. I'm with you that the Adolin comment doesn't apply, because the heralds aren't just shardbearer's but surgebinders. Jasnah at Thaylen Field is probably the closest we've gotten to a herald (unlimited Stormlight + higher oaths) but she has twenty years of experience as opposed to thousands. Heralds would have been unimaginable at their prime. 

5 hours ago, cfphelps said:

(6) Overrating of Knights Radiant combat abilities.

I'll give this may be true. I def know that Kaladin is a distinctly powerful and talented Windrunner even compared to pre-recurrence knights and that current KR seems to be relying on Dalinar's ability to give unlimited stormlight to get through fights. However, I would say they are likely massively underrating their non-combat abilities at this point.  It's been a bit of a theme in SA that weapons have more use than just fighting (Dalinar's latrine digging), many of the surges (Regrowth, Cohesion, Transportation, etc.) have massive implications outside of combat. During the desolations, with the heralds' guidance, KR probably were much better trained in how to apply their skills to fully support and build a society, not just fight fused. 

Like I have a pet theory that the Kholinar Windblades (and possibly Urithiru itself) were stone shaped in existance by either the Willshapers or Kalak. That's the sort of creative and powerful application of surges I imagine historical KR could have been doing. 

[Elegy]

I thought about this some more and I believe the only way to explain this are indeed the Unmade. The Radiants and Heralds had no idea how to deal with them and only found a way to trap them during the False Desolation (and even that knowledge was quickly lost due to the Recreance and only recovered via the gemstone archive). I imagine having to deal with 9 of them with no way of defeating them for good has to have been pretty insane. Especially since we don't know what at least 2 of them do. Maybe Chemoarish or Dai-Gonarthis could somehow cancel Surgebinding/eat Investiture in one way or another.

The Unmade proved to be a huge advantage in the Battle of Kholinar, with three of them tearing the city apart (Yelig-nar possessing the queen, Ashertmarn manipulating the palace guard, and Sja-anat preventing spanreed communication and travel through the Oathgate by corrupting spren), and they won that battle. In Thaylen City, there were two Unmade - and Nergaoul had to be captured in order to win that battle (because they couldn't have fought Amaram's army indefinitely). They only won that battle because they had found a way to defeat an Unmade.

Then, Rayse became very cautious with the Unmade by Rhythm of War. He knew that the Radiants could trap them or even potentially destroy one of them definitively with Nightblood (which actually happened with one Thunderclast spren). So rather than losing another one of his strongest weapons, he avoided using them. Which makes sense, since losing for him only meant losing time - losing an Unmade on the other hand meant losing a weapon that would have been useful in potential future Desolations. Maybe that's the reason why he didn't use potential overpowered powers of the Unmade that didn't show up yet. However, I do hope that Taravangian won't be this reluctant. And I don't believe he will be. I'm sure he will use whatever means he has to win.

All of that said, even if this is reason, I still think it should have been more obvious to us as readers. Also, a demon army from outer space should be terrifying on its own and even more terrifying with the help of their Elderitch Abominations - not only terrifying with them. The Fused have definitely been rather disappointing thus far. The same goes for the Thunderclasts, to a degree. Kalak is said to have died to them several times, yet Renarin survives getting crushed by one of them repeatedly. How did they even kill a Herald?

It also made me realize another weird thing: Honor, Cultivation and Odium fought on a world where people light their rooms by capturing spren, yet neither them nor anyone else ever had the idea of trapping Heralds or Unmade, which are obviously spren (at least the Shards should have understood that) for 5000 years? It makes them look pretty dim-witted. Rayse being kind of slow and falling for a lot of things in Rhythm of War can be traced back to his conflict with the Shard I guess, but you can't really say that about him during the original Desolations, I think. I guess if you're well-meaning, it shows that at the very least, knowledge about Cosmere mechanics is far less accessible for Shards than many of us (including me) would have thought.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Elegy

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, Elegy said:

It also made me realize another weird thing: Honor, Cultivation and Odium fought on a world where people light their rooms by capturing spren, yet neither them nor anyone else ever had the idea of trapping Heralds or Unmade, which are obviously spren (at least the Shards should have understood that) for 5000 years?

Aren't fabrials like that relatively new? Raboniel mentions that the Fused didn't even know spren could be caught in gems until it happened to Ba-Ado-Mishram (though humans clearly discovered it at some point prior, since the revelation to them was that Unmade could be caught like ordinary spren, not that ordinary spren could — but this might be a new development since Aharietiam still).

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Aren't fabrials like that relatively new? Raboniel mentions that the Fused didn't even know spren could be caught in gems until it happened to Ba-Ado-Mishram (though humans clearly discovered it at some point prior, since the revelation to them was that Unmade could be caught like ordinary spren, not that ordinary spren could — but this might be a new development since Aharietiam still).

There is a 2,500 year gap I don't think it's unlikely that it was found in the intervening time

[Listener]

I think the reason they are so evenly matched now is because of the coordination and technology. Humankind had, at the best, a few hundred years between Desolations but this time they had millennia. They discovered all sorts of fabrials, created much better weapons and armor and invented new battle strategies. In the previous Desolations, they barely had any armor at all and methods of forging were almost nonexistent. And back then, the Unmade were loose. And there are no Heralds this time and the tactics and problems that the enemy faces are different. They have a whole host of untrained singers who've spent years in slaveform and a lot of their Fused are going insane.

[Karger]

On 4/5/2021 at 4:31 PM, Lanaya said:

So this is where I argue for Urithiru. Shouldn't the heralds + radiants recognized that this place is the best base of operations they have? Shouldn't they have tried to recruit everyone they could to this tower? I doubt the people would disagree to go if they were asked by a god/radiant.

Everywhere does not have an oathgate.  Urithiru would have trouble just maintaining the dawncities at a reasonable standard(that is making sure they don't all die from famine and disease).  You need a surplus of basic services to maintain and produce knowledge and the humans lacked that after the desolation due to the infighting and refugees influx.

[The Technovore]

Consider that we know that the Desolations came first, and the Radiants came second. Those first few Desolations before Ishar founded the Radiants would've been brutal for team Humanity. Enough to break their civilization. Then, with the Oathpact, they were reliably able to kick the Fused to the curb, but if I were the Fused, the game wouldn't be military victory, the game would be to cause as much infrastructure damage as possible while wearing at the Heralds until the Oathpact broke. The long game. You can lose a thousand battles, but if you keep coming back eventually you win the war. 

We see that they succeeded at the first objective (The Heralds had to literally re-teach metalworking, and only for bronze instead of iron), and were on the brink of victory at the second one (Last few Desolations were practically one after another. Even with Radiants, humanity was eventually going to break). The only thing--the only thing that stopped them from obtaining overwhelming victory and the eventual extinction of humanity was Taln. 
 

Taln is a beast. Love that guy.

[Procrastination]

The Heralds (and Radiants) helped the humans to victory. Now, the Fused and singers use the traditions of the past, but the new Radiants find new ways to do things. I assume that’s why the new Radiants are doing so well.

Edited May 6, 2021 by rosharian_cat

[LordFlea]

On 01/04/2021 at 9:57 AM, Harrycrapper said:

I mean that depends on how you define winning, I'd say it's more that they survived each desolation. And at some point they started losing more than they were able to rebuild before the next one. The question here isn't if the humans were losing, it's how they were losing with what appear to be better circumstances than the current Radiants. 

Winning battles but losing the war tbh

[ElMonoEstupendo]

A few more points I haven't seen made:

• Not all the Fused are back yet. We've only seen, I think, 7 of the 9 types and only just seeing Husked Ones etc. and what they can do.  One is reminded of the scene in RoW where the human soldiers are making amazing headway before Lezian rocks up and scatters them.
• At this point the Heralds have been alive and in the same bodies for several thousand years - it's entirely possible their abilities weren't nearly as prodigious when they were getting new bodies every decade.
• Honor is dead, and he had been restricting the power of Surgebinders. We're explicitly told about Bondsmiths being unchained now but it may apply to all Knights Radiant.
• Near the end, the Heralds are terrified of death. That's got to affect their performance on the battlefield.

And one final one that deserves its own paragraph - I think it makes sense that in a Desolation Odium's forces would be doing their damnedest not to kill Heralds in battle. It's the sure fire way to prevent your own resurrection and end the Desolation. Any time a Herald rocks up at the front, the best thing they could do is back off, work around them, outmanoeuvre, refuse to engage, and meanwhile do as much damage as possible elsewhere.

There's only 10 of them, after all, and only a few of those have some form of rapid transport. When one side has such overwhelmingly powerful units (that you also absolutely want to avoid killing), you just nullify them by never letting them actually fight you.

We can presume that the very nature of Odium works somewhat against his forces in pursuing tactics like this.

[+Harrycrapper]

I agree with most of what you have there, but this point is kinda off:

8 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

At this point the Heralds have been alive and in the same bodies for several thousand years - it's entirely possible their abilities weren't nearly as prodigious when they were getting new bodies every decade.

Did you mean to say "it's entirely possible their abilities aren't nearly as prodigious when they were getting new bodies every decade." ? It seems like you're making points about why humanity is doing better, but if there's anything that's not helping, it's the Heralds. At best they've been mildly useful for information and at worst they're actively working against humanity. It mostly seems like something that could be relevant if the Heralds ever become useful again, but at present they are not. 

 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

4 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

I agree with most of what you have there, but this point is kinda off:

Did you mean to say "it's entirely possible their abilities aren't nearly as prodigious when they were getting new bodies every decade." ? It seems like you're making points about why humanity is doing better, but if there's anything that's not helping, it's the Heralds. At best they've been mildly useful for information and at worst they're actively working against humanity. It mostly seems like something that could be relevant if the Heralds ever become useful again, but at present they are not. 

 

No, I think my phrasing is right. I'm trying to find an explanation for why humanity wasn't absolutely curb-stomping Odium before, given how evenly matched it seems in the present day and the advantages it seems they would have had.

One of those advantages is that they had ten magic super-soldiers actually on their side, but this is an explanation for why they might not have made as big a martial difference as they would now, if they helped.

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

No, I think my phrasing is right. I'm trying to find an explanation for why humanity wasn't absolutely curb-stomping Odium before, given how evenly matched it seems in the present day and the advantages it seems they would have had.

One of those advantages is that they had ten magic super-soldiers actually on their side, but this is an explanation for why they might not have made as big a martial difference as they would now, if they helped.

Ok, I thought that was the case.

Yea, it's possible they could help turn the tide more than we'd think, but they'd have to be useful again. It doesn't answer the OPs question of why humanity is seemingly doing better as of RoW than they were in the latter days of the original Desolations. Also, consider that the ancient Radiants had a functioning Taln, which the current ones do not. The other Heralds might very well have been useless, possibly some even making mistakes that got people killed where they would not have. But, Taln was not mad like he is now. From what they said you could basically send him to an unwinnable battle and he'd turn the tide and/or die trying. 

Now, I'm not arguring in favor of "the modern Radiants doing better than ancient Radiants makes no sense" statement. Yes ancient Radiants had what was left of the Heralds and more numbers of experienced Radiants. But modern humanity has far more ordinary people than they did back then, more resources, better technology, and better training. Along with the points you made about the Fused not being at full capacity and Radiants possibly having stronger powers, it's clear that modern humanity has more of a chance than ancient humanity. Also, we haven't seen or heard much of Unmade that can affect battles, I wonder if Odium is holding them back more than he used to because he's afraid of them being captured like the ones that have been.