Cheyenne Sedai Posted March 30, 2021 Report Share Posted March 30, 2021 Ok, so the evidence for this in a list format, I’ll explain it better. - Hoid is confirmed to have been at the shattering. - Frost was likely to have been at the shattering - Hoid used to hold a Dawnshard. - Other than the Shards, Frost and Hoid were the only people we know who were at the shattering other than the original vessels. - We know there are 4 dawnshards, and Hoid used to hold one. Therefore, it makes sense that the other four holders of the dawnshards were there at the shattering, since (I’d have to double check) they were the weapons that shattered Adonalsium - He’s one of the most knowladgeable people of the Cosmere - In the letter, Hoid says that Frost is now immortal, however, that doesn’t make sense, since dragons are ageless, and functionally immortal. - Brandon has confirmed the Dawnshard is the reason Hoid is immortal. - He has a non interference policy - The Dawnshard is the reason Hoid can’t hurt anyone, (with the notable exception of Kelsier, but he’s a cognitive shadow, and even Hoid was surprised) Full theory Considering all this evidence, doesn’t it make sense that Frost holds another of the Dawnshards? He was there at the shattering, as far as we know, just like Hoid, who held one of the dawnshards, and is now immortal, not just functionally immortal, like most dragons. And with the Dawnshard giving Hoid his immortality, that could very well be what Hoid means. Other than that, its very clear that he has a non intervention policy, which could also be related to his non intervention. The actual magical restriction of not hurting anyone because of the Dawnshard, and his oath of not intervening the way Hoid does. Anyway, what do you think? I’d recommend the Frost and other dragons episode of Shardcast, which is what inspired this theory, if you haven’t already. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+graciemoo Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 Yeah I definitely like this theory. I also like the idea that Hoid forcibly gave Frost the Dawnshard, based on him saying "I realize that you are probably still angry" in the letter, especially if he was referencing the Dawnshard in the previous statement about now being essentially immortal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Sedai Posted March 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, graciemoo said: Yeah I definitely like this theory. I also like the idea that Hoid forcibly gave Frost the Dawnshard, based on him saying "I realize that you are probably still angry" in the letter, especially if he was referencing the Dawnshard in the previous statement about now being essentially immortal. That makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t considered that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, graciemoo said: Yeah I definitely like this theory. I also like the idea that Hoid forcibly gave Frost the Dawnshard, based on him saying "I realize that you are probably still angry" in the letter, especially if he was referencing the Dawnshard in the previous statement about now being essentially immortal. It's almost certain Hoid's non violence issue comes from him being a Dawnsavant so if Frost had an issue with that he'd just have put the Dawnshard in a mural or something. The reason he's angry at Hoid is probably different Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Frost was a Dawnshard but it's more likely he'd have the fourth Shard instead of Hoid's one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+graciemoo Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 29 minutes ago, mathiau said: It's almost certain Hoid's non violence issue comes from him being a Dawnsavant so if Frost had an issue with that he'd just have put the Dawnshard in a mural or something. The reason he's angry at Hoid is probably different Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Frost was a Dawnshard but it's more likely he'd have the fourth Shard instead of Hoid's one True, although of all people Frost is probably fine with not being able to harm people, and it's possible he wouldn't want to put it anywhere for fear of someone else getting it, but yeah. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CephandriusTW Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 Well, we don't actually know if Frost was at the Shattering. At least, I could not find any WoB or information about that. We also don't know if the effects the Dawnshard had on Hoid are shared between all Dawnshards or are unique to that Dawnshard. So... I'm not convinced. We need more information. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Sedai Posted March 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, CephandriusTW said: Well, we don't actually know if Frost was at the Shattering. At least, I could not find any WoB or information about that. We also don't know if the effects the Dawnshard had on Hoid are shared between all Dawnshards or are unique to that Dawnshard. So... I'm not convinced. We need more information. I definitely agree we need more information. We know too little about Hoid, the Dawnshards, the Shattering, Frost... basically anything this theory touches. As for those WOB, I remember hearing something like that a while ago, but when I went looking I couldn’t find it specifically. I do think the Dawnshards all have the same effects as the one that Hoid held, at least in that respect, because that’s the impression I got from Brandon’s answers on the topic in regards to Hoid and Rysn, though we don’t know if that’s the same dawnshard. I’d definitely agree we need more information on this, though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph-Naught Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, Cheyenne Sedai said: ... - Frost was likely to have been at the shattering ... - Other than the Shards, Frost and Hoid were the only people we know who were at the shattering other than the original vessels... Do you mean to say that we know Hoid was at the Shattering and it's possible that Frost was as well? Quote - We know there are 4 dawnshards... This is something that gets said over and over again, but as far as I know Mr. Sanderson has deliberately avoided confirming the number of dawnshards. See, for example the following exchange: Quote David-El It seemed from the way the mural was done in the book that you were implying that there are four Dawnshards, one for each four of the shards, considering the sun was split in four, then each quadrant was then further split into four more. Brandon Sanderson RAFO, I'm afraid. As I said somewhere else, this was written as it was deliberately--but also somewhat vague on purpose. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) We know that the Sleepless think there are four dawnshards, and there is a very neat symmetry to the number of them being four--particularly with the way the mural is depicted--and the sixteen shards, but relying on that kind of elegance feels like a trap. So until I see a WoB definitively confirming the number of dawnshards as four, my sanity would really appreciate it if everyone would stop treating that number as definitive. Edited March 31, 2021 by Aleph-Naught 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+graciemoo Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 28 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said: We know that the Sleepless think there are four dawnshards, and there is a very neat symmetry to the number of them being four (particularly with the way the mural is depicted) and the sixteen shards; but relying on that kind of elegance feels like a trap. So until I see a WoB definitively confirming that is the number of dawnshards is four, my sanity would really appreciate it if everyone would stop treating that number as definitive. We do have confirmation, and I think that WoB was just referring to the split of the shards, not the number of Dawnshards. Quote Simon 1) Is Hoid still holding his Dawnshard? 2) If not, is the Dawnshard currently hold by Rysn the same as Hoid's or a different? 3) Nikli mentions 4 Dawnshards. Are there more than that? 4) Are all the Dawnshards currently (as of SA 4) on Roshar? Or in the Rosharan System? 5) Are there some of them on worlds we have already seen (Scadrial, Sel, Threnody, etc...)? Brandon Sanderson Hoid Dawnshard is a RAFO. Same. There are only four Dawnshards. RAFO on whether they're on this planet or not. These are great questions, but Dawnshard info is mostly for the future cosmere books--and so I consider most of it very RAFOy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 32 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said: Do you mean to say that we know Hoid was at the Shattering and it's possible that Frost was as well? We know Frost was involved so it's likely he was there or at least close enough that Hoid could give him his Dawnshard afterward Quote This is something that gets said over and over again, but as far as I know Mr. Sanderson has deliberately avoided confirming the number of dawnshards. See, for example the following exchange: We know that the Sleepless think there are four dawnshards, and there is a very neat symmetry to the number of them being four--particularly with the way the mural is depicted--and the sixteen shards, but relying on that kind of elegance feels like a trap. So until I see a WoB definitively confirming the number of dawnshards as four, my sanity would really appreciate it if everyone would stop treating that number as definitive. Quote Simon 1) Is Hoid still holding his Dawnshard? 2) If not, is the Dawnshard currently hold by Rysn the same as Hoid's or a different? 3) Nikli mentions 4 Dawnshards. Are there more than that? 4) Are all the Dawnshards currently (as of SA 4) on Roshar? Or in the Rosharan System? 5) Are there some of them on worlds we have already seen (Scadrial, Sel, Threnody, etc...)? Brandon Sanderson Hoid Dawnshard is a RAFO. Same. There are only four Dawnshards. RAFO on whether they're on this planet or not. These are great questions, but Dawnshard info is mostly for the future cosmere books--and so I consider most of it very RAFOy. Brandon Sanderson Same here meant RAFO. I answer these quickly, I'm afraid, particularly when they come in a list like that. General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 23, 2020) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph-Naught Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 Thank you everyone, for that WoB! It's ridiculous, but I feel a palpable sense of relief knowing that the number of dawnshards is, definitively, four. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Aleph-Naught said: Thank you everyone, for that WoB! It's ridiculous, but I feel a palpable sense of relief knowing that the number of dawnshards is, definitively, four. It's not, it's really not 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 Quote clyguy Are you willing to comment on what it is that provides Frost's longevity, is it something innate to his race or some-- Brandon Sanderson It's racial. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Quote Questioner Anything you can tell us about Frost? Brandon Sanderson What do you want to know about Frost? Questioner Everything. Brandon Sanderson Then no. I'm not going to tell you everything about Frost. He's still alive. Questioner He's immortal? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He can be killed, he's just functionally immortal, he doesn't age. Questioner Has he always been able to take the form of that-- *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes. He was born as one. Questioner Born as one. Brandon Sanderson It is a race. Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015) I also was thinking about this earlier and I found these wobs We do know that he gets his immortality through being a dragon. And it looks like he was always a dragon..... So Hoid saying that he is now immortal now is confusing to hell to me...he should have been immortal no matter what? Unless like he is now capital I Immortal now instead of just the age stuff? I am not sure honestly. I do maybe think his non-interventionism might be because he is holding a shard? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danex Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 On 3/30/2021 at 4:52 PM, Cheyenne Sedai said: (with the notable exception of Kelsier, but he’s a cognitive shadow, and even Hoid was surprised) I subscribe to the theory that Kelsier is actually a Dawnshard too, and that’s why Hoid could punch him. Like, are you really telling me that Hoid, one of the oldest people in all the cosmere, who is always messing around in places he probably shouldn’t be, has never tried to punch a cognitive shadow before? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dannex said: I subscribe to the theory that Kelsier is actually a Dawnshard too, and that’s why Hoid could punch him. The only issue with that is Kelsier likely couldn't have been a Dawnshard when he was alive, as it is implied Dawnshards amplify the power of investiture. That theory could be wrong, but it it is right then Kelsier would have been able to use the Dawnshard and his Allomancy to perform feats that likely were on the level of planet-breaking. Edited April 1, 2021 by Ixthos 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 35 minutes ago, Ixthos said: The only issue with that is Kelsier likely couldn't have been a Dawnshard when he was alive, as it is implied Dawnshards amplify the power of investiture. That theory could be wrong, but it it is right then Kelsier would have been able to use the Dawnshard and his Allomancy to perform feats that likely were on the level of planet-breaking. It's likely different Dawnshards amplify different powers, for example Change would increase Transformation and Cohesion while Known to bind would increase Adhesion and Gravitation and the hypothetical Inspire would increase Awakening If there's a Dawnshard on Scadrial it's most likely Hoid's one, so either "Survive", "Endure" or "Create", I could see these not significantly improving Allomancy and since Kel'd only have it for a few years he'd probably not be a Dawnsavant yet and wouldn't have the full immortality or the non-violence part Honestly the main issue with Kel being a Dawnshard before dying is that the Sleepless wanted to kill Rysn to get Change back so Kel dying would probably have freed his Dawnshard 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Sedai Posted April 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) On 3/31/2021 at 2:50 PM, Aleph-Naught said: Do you mean to say that we know Hoid was at the Shattering and it's possible that Frost was as well? Yes. I remember seeing something about Frost and the Shattering, but I can’t find it. Maybe its the Mandela effect. Quote On 3/31/2021 at 3:25 PM, mathiau said: We know Frost was involved so it's likely he was there or at least close enough that Hoid could give him his Dawnshard afterward I couldn’t find those WOBs, so thanks for the confirmation. Quote I also was thinking about this earlier and I found these wobs We do know that he gets his immortality through being a dragon. And it looks like he was always a dragon..... So Hoid saying that he is now immortal now is confusing to hell to me...he should have been immortal no matter what? Unless like he is now capital I Immortal now instead of just the age stuff? I am not sure honestly. I do maybe think his non-interventionism might be because he is holding a shard? That’s why I made the distinction. Functionally immortal (aka ageless, but can be killed) as a dragon, and then actual immortality with the healing factor Hoid seems to have because of the dawnshards. I don’t think he’s holding a shard, I think it makes far more sense that its a Dawnshard, which is why this is the theory. Edited April 1, 2021 by Cheyenne Sedai 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Cheyenne Sedai said: I couldn’t find those WOBs, so thanks for the confirmation. Your welcome, but please don't double post (Also it's not from WoBs, it's just heavily implied in Frost's letter that he was involved) 3 minutes ago, Cheyenne Sedai said: Yes. I remember seeing something about Frost and the Shattering, but I can’t find it. Maybe its the Mandela effect. I think at some point the Coppermind page said that Frost was probably there, maybe you're confusing with that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Sedai Posted April 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 minute ago, mathiau said: Your Oops. I was replying to a ton of things. I’ll put them all in the same one. 2 minutes ago, mathiau said: (Also it's not from WoBs, it's just heavily implied in Frost's letter that he was involved) I think at some point the Coppermind page said that Frost was probably there, maybe you're confusing with that? Maybe. I checked on the coppermind, but it didn’t say anything like that exactly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 I know it’s been a bit since ya’ll were posting this, but I can point out where Frost implies he was part of the Shattering: Quote Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. My path has been chosen very deliberately. Yes, I agree with everything you have said about Rayse, including the severe danger he presents. However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem. Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited. Whether this was Tanavast’s design or not, millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen. While I mourn for the great suffering Rayse has caused, I do not believe we could hope for a better outcome than this. He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. Emphasis added, letter compiled and truncated to leave out unimportant parts. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 Yeah, I also saw this when I was reading the Frost letters and came to the same conclusion that you did, he is holding a Dawnshard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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