8 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Through use of forgery it is shown that one can take different paths in their past for different results to become different versions that could have been

Since it has become apparent Hoid had an opportunity to become a shard at some point could forging his soul turn him into one?

Edited by TheOneEyedFox
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19 minutes ago, TheOneEyedFox said:

Through use of forgery it is shown that one can take different paths in their past for different results to become different versions that could have been

Since it has become apparent Hoid had an opportunity to become a shard at some point could forging his soul turn him into one?

That would require more power than forgery provides, it can't make new investiture out of nothing.

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How do you mean? If it rewrote his history so that he had accepted the shard how would this require more investiture than rewriting another soul as you are preforming the same action? I would understand if it required a ridiculously detailed soul stamp due to his vast history and depth but this could be solved with an artifact such as the moon scepter which auto programs the Dor. 
 

I would be interested to see if the investiture which has been dispersed would condense around him as a possible host. 

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Posted (edited)

The amount of Investiture required to rewire someone with the Metallic Arts would short-circuit the stamp. Think how many orders of magnitude more Investiture would be involved in a Shard...

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it be possible to use a soulstamp to give or take Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not under normal circumstances. The amount of Investiture required to do so would effectively short-circuit the stamp.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

Also, remember that Forgery is dependent on Cognitive plausibility. Whatever Shard it was that Hoid was offered but didn't take went to somebody else and in all likelihood they're now on a world where their presence has affected millions or billions of lives over the millennia. Even if you could somehow make a stamp function with the instructions to give that Shard to Hoid instead, it would fail due to the Cognitive aspect simply not working.

Edited by Weltall
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Posted (edited)

Not to mention you'd be presumably attempting to Steal the shard from a current Vessel, who might object if and when it becomes a serious enough threat to notice.  

 

However...

You MIGHT be able to re-write your own history to have been at the right place & time to pick up an unattended Shard and/or have been the most fitting Candidate in the moment, if said shard remains unclaimed and unConnected so there's nothing particular that needs to be Overwritten from an Investiture POV.  Note that I dont think the Dor would qualify in this case because of the whole CR shoving that happened.  But an unattended Shard that theoretically remains in the Spiritual Realm (Honor, Ambition, etc) might be more up for grabs.   

 

Edit:

15 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The amount of Investiture required to rewire someone with the Metallic Arts would short-circuit the stamp. Think how many orders of magnitude more Investiture would be involved in a Shard...

 

Given this, maybe maybe not.  It definitely implies that Forgery is too fragile to grant/recreate some larger effects, on the other hand the theoretical Finesse mechanic to get you to the Right-Place/Right-Time might still be in effect and keep it below the cap for granted/grantable powers. In the case of Allomancy the Stamp would probably have to act as a funnel/conduit for the Allomantic investiture itself, which would limit its ability to grant most high-energy powers.  By contrast a Shard worth of Power that causes Sliver inflation, etc might forge its own larger Connection once the initial contact is made, lightning rod style.  

Edited by Quantus
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31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

maybe maybe not.  It definitely implies that Forgery is too fragile to grant/recreate some larger effects

Forging has been compared to a program with the more detailed output requiring more detailed instructions.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moon_Scepter

The above link shows that with the moon scepter, which is currently in the possession of the imperial fool, is a translation tool transcribing the necessary processes to achieve your goal, essentially making rewriting a soul as simple as rewriting a pot if not easier.

40 minutes ago, Quantus said:

By contrast a Shard worth of Power that causes Sliver inflation, etc might forge its own larger Connection once the initial contact is made, lightning rod style.

I was thinking along the same lines, if you could fool the essence of a shard that is not tied to a being for long enough, it may draw in all the power giving you access even momentarily... if nothing else use that moment to condense the god metal and access it’s form of investiture that way.

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6 hours ago, TheOneEyedFox said:

How do you mean? If it rewrote his history so that he had accepted the shard how would this require more investiture than rewriting another soul as you are preforming the same action? I would understand if it required a ridiculously detailed soul stamp due to his vast history and depth but this could be solved with an artifact such as the moon scepter which auto programs the Dor. 
 

I would be interested to see if the investiture which has been dispersed would condense around him as a possible host. 

I'm meaning that the amount of power that forgery has access to is not enough to preform the action required, not even close to enough. I think it would be easier to kill Edgil and take Enowment by force than making the stamp work.

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14 hours ago, TheOneEyedFox said:

Forging has been compared to a program with the more detailed output requiring more detailed instructions.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moon_Scepter

The above link shows that with the moon scepter, which is currently in the possession of the imperial fool, is a translation tool transcribing the necessary processes to achieve your goal, essentially making rewriting a soul as simple as rewriting a pot if not easier.

I was thinking along the same lines, if you could fool the essence of a shard that is not tied to a being for long enough, it may draw in all the power giving you access even momentarily... if nothing else use that moment to condense the god metal and access it’s form of investiture that way.

All Dor magics are described as programming languages for reality.  But each of the different Dor magics are subject to their own nature and natural limits.  In Forgery's case it's the fact that it is not a Permanent effect, but is instead something that needs to be maintained by an active kinetic effect (ie the Stamp), which has limits to how much raw energy it can channel before overloading (think tiny phone wire trying to jump-start a car).  This is not any different than Hemalurgy which can also restructure the Spiritweb, but still ahs real limits to how  much Investiture a spike can can Hold.

But that doesnt mean it's out of reach of the Dor, just Forgery in particular.  We've actually seen what's likely a Dor magic built to do more or less precisely what we're talking about: That Ire crystal in Secret History was specifically built to snatch the Connection of an unHeld Shard and scoop up the divine fumble. 

 

 

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