The big three magic systems, and the possible "three"-way battle for the Cosmere

[Ixthos]

There is a lot of discussion going on right now about the strengths of the metallic arts compared to the surges and fabrial science. This isn't exactly about that, as I think there is still too much about the strengths and weaknesses the systems share that hasn't been revealed to make fully informed discussions about the relative viability of claiming one side is stronger than the other - especially as I think there is a lot of overlap between those systems, that each taps into the core mechanics of the Cosmere in similar ways (see for example of the metals used in fabrials and the metals used in allomancy, as well as shared mechanisms across other systems for storing memories). And because I think not enough attention is given to the idea of non or semi powered Hazekiller teams with suppression/leeching equipment in these sorts of fights :-P (Also, complete side note, but I would love to see Hazekiller teams from Threnody - I think that has been implied by Brandon mentioning a group important to the Cosmere originating on Threnody that would show up in a Threnody novel, so a group of normal individuals trained to fight cognitive shadows and whatever the Evil is) But this topic isn't focused on "who would win" scenarios, though that certainly is within the scope of this, but rather about the utility and comparisons of the three main systems as used by spacefaring civilisations.

The big three are the Selish systems, the metallic arts, and the surge/void/fabrial/etc. systems used by the main three planets of the Cosmere's backbone systems. I've mentioned in the past that I think each world falls into a classic RPG class structure (AonDor for mages, surgebinding for warriors, and the metallic arts for rogues), and I still think this is a core idea behind their construction. However, I also think any discussion of the future of the Cosmere needs to take into account not just Roshar and Scadrial, but also Sel.

 

Sel, at the moment, is one of the most limited planets in terms of Cosmere significance, on account of the magic being region bound, those who can use it and leave their planet - or nation - can't use it elsewhere - an ironic twist on surgebinders, who in principle could use their abilities on other worlds if they could actually leave their own, which has been indicated to actually be possible, albeit a difficult or mostly unknown technique. But we know about the Iree fortress, and other hints that eventually Rosharan magic is going to be used on other worlds. So, despite the difficulties at the moment, it certainly seems possible that the future of the Cosmere isn't going to be dominated by just the Rosharans and the Scadrians, but HOPEFULLY also the Selish, with other worlds, if not major powers, able to stand as independent city-states in the Cosmere, not necessarily part of any given hegemony but as neutral trading posts - imagine Nalthis as a neutral city state where people trade for Breathers, and Taldain as a seed source of those trying to genetically modify its investiture-linked microbes, and Silverlight (and once again my obligatory Silverlight is built on top of Ambition's corpse) used as a cognitive realm crossroads and ultimate neutral city in the future conflicts. I also hope that each "empire" is going to be culturally diverse, and at least a few members with access to other worlds' systems as allies or citizens for those empires - I would really like to see that, if Roshar and Scadrial are in a cold or hot war, that there are surgebinders with the Scadrians, and those with access to the metallic arts on the Rosharan side, and both having allies both abroad and within their boarders who can use the Selish systems.

(Also, I'm hoping that the Aether world or worlds are also involves as major or semi major actors in any hypothetical political, economic, and military competitions between worlds, as I think one part of the aether systems in particular really lends itself towards space travel and other sci-fi equipment - and if you've read Aether of Night you probably know what I'm thinking of :-P I would love to see Aether-based space travel.)

 

Back to the topic of the magic as used as tools for space travel and combat - I am not going to get into the details of what each power can do, as there is still a lot of potential to add abilities with new Aons, applications of surges, voids, and metals and shardmetal alloys. I am rather going to look at each magic system - or core of each magic system - in general.

 

The Dor

• First, let me say I am convinced that part of what Devotion and Dominion were trying to do on Sel - I am convinced that each shard has a reason for settling on the worlds they did, and the reason Odium could claim his actions were legal within the agreement of the shards, as Endowment seems to think about them.
• The Dor seems to be the most versatile of the systems, as any power that can be described programmatically can potentially be employed, with branch conditions, loops, and chaining together effects, possibly even creating macros. The Dor seems to be the most readily shard-like of the powers, without the restrictions of the shards. Hmmm ... could that have been their goal?
• Also, how small can the symbols be made, and can one make a machine to print Dor-accessing symbols onto microchips that can imbue them with the same properties as an Elantrian? Could Sel make use of investiture based computers?
• Seons and Skaze as AI

Surges and Voids

• Odium noted that other shards would be very interested in the power of the surges - is this because of Roshar, or the combination of Honour and Cultivation? And Odium's presence also adds certain elements
• Surges are both grounded in real world physics - gravity, molecular interactions, the processes of growth, conjoined fabrials - and more abstract metaphorical properties - connection, spiritual cohesion, future sight - all of which allow for a broad, complex set of interactions that can be both realistic, such as the idea of flying with the use of gravitation, and forcefields with the use of transformation, as well as any hypothetical abstractions of almost magical effects, such as surge of transportation beaming, and possible forcefield busting division beams
• And we still don't know about the esoteric powers of voidbinding, or the third, unknown system which is theoretically even more esoteric - could we get even more complex abilities related to real world physics or more abstract supernatural effects and properties?
• Anti investiture, and the idea of the uses for this system to release energy, as well as anti-invested individual applications
• Spren as AI

Metals

• After learning about how fabrials make use of metals in a similar way to the effect of metals allomantically, and the further reveals about the existence of properties of other shard metals and their relations to investiture and other Cosmere mechanics (Ruin - seeing the spiritual realm links / Fortune, Preservation - forming new connections and possibly alloys with shard metals allowing forming connections to other shards, Honour and Cultivation - cutting the spiritual realm connections, Odium - channelling investiture; all of them seeming to affect the spiritual realm) This suggests that Ruin and Preservation put a great deal of emphasis on magic a world whose system could directly access the core mechanics of the Cosmere, people able to use metals to produce effects that those metals have on manifestations of investiture
• Ettmetal - could it be linked to anti-investiture in some way, and likewise the hints Brandon gave about them finding something interesting in the residue of its use, implying a possible breakthrough in understanding the nature of investiture
• Similarly to the surges, the metallic arts tie strongly to real world physics, but while the surges combine real world physics with abstract ideas, the metallic arts go even further into real world physics, with storing weight, affecting time, and likewise into the idea of affecting other sources of investiture, as with aluminium and duralumin, and chromium and nicrosil
• This strong link to real world mechanics, and the fact that the metals tie directly into the mechanics of fabrials, and the use of hemalurgy, gives a lot of potential uses for both semi-hard real world extrapolations of future technologies, as well as hijacking the more abstract properties of other magic systems?

 

So it seems that Sel focuses on providing the breadth of hypothetical abilities a shard possesses, scaled down and turned into a programming language and thus predictable and repeatable, Roshar mixes real world physics and the idea of abstract applications of metaphysical ideas and interacting with base investiture, and Scadrial goes even further into real world physics and the possible interactions with the nature of investiture itself as used by other systems.

 

So, what do you think? What possible applications and commonalities do you think exists for space age stories?

(Final note: who else wants to see investiture-based mega structures?)

[ScadrianTank]

Magical mega structures are cool but somewhat pointless since there is an entire Cognitive realm to colonize. That said, I really want to see Scadrians living at least on ringworlds by era 4.

I think I said it in a different thread, but AonDor would be incredibly powerful for material synthesis. Since they can do something like Soulcasting (or they really can create something from nothing), once superconductors, carbon nanotubes, graphene, and other complex materials spread, Sel could make a nice profit from trading.

[Halyo_Alex]

7 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I really want to see Scadrians living at least on ringworlds by era 4.

What the hell would a Ringworld's cognitive realm look like?

[Kingsdaughter613]

My thoughts:

Sel - Wizards

Scadrial - Rogues

Roshar - Paladins

Nalthis - Bards

Aether - Druids

Taldain - Monks

Valor’s World - Sorcerers

Invention’s World - Artificer (Yes, I know not everyone includes them. But it fits too well.)

Mercy’s World - Clerics

Threnody - Rangers

That leaves Fighters, Barbarians, and Warlocks

[The Unknown Ajah]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My thoughts:

Sel - Wizards

Scadrial - Rogues

Roshar - Paladins

Nalthis - Bards

Aether - Druids

Taldain - Monks

Valor’s World - Sorcerers

Invention’s World - Artificer (Yes, I know not everyone includes them. But it fits too well.)

Mercy’s World - Clerics

Threnody - Rangers

That leaves Fighters, Barbarians, and Warlocks

Honestly Fjorden could be warlocks. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

Honestly Fjorden could be warlocks. 

Rosharans are actually closest, but they’re so obviously Paladins. Warlocks gain their power through a bond with an otherworldly being. I think Rithmatist, had it remained Cosmere, could have given us our Warlocks.

Selish magic requires study and - with the exception of Elantris - can be used by anyone from the correct place with the right knowledge. Wizards utilize intricate and complex spells that require extensive study to master, but anyone can become one. Ergo, Sel=Wizards.

[The Unknown Ajah]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Rosharans are actually closest, but they’re so obviously Paladins. Warlocks gain their power through a bond with an otherworldly being. I think Rithmatist, had it remained Cosmere, could have given us our Warlocks.

Selish magic requires study and - with the exception of Elantris - can be used by anyone from the correct place with the right knowledge. Wizards utilize intricate and complex spells that require extensive study to master, but anyone can become one. Ergo, Sel=Wizards.

Actually, that could make Aviar warlocks, not the technical definition, but close.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

Actually, that could make Aviar warlocks, not the technical definition, but close.

I keep going back and forth on Druids versus Warlocks for the Aethers. 

I’m not counting the minor Shardworlds right now, except for Threnody (which is counting for Ambition).

What’s going on on FotS occurs throughout the Cosmere and seems to be the natural method of Investiture manifestation. This leads me to theorize that Yolen may be the Warlock world. Note that Warlocks receive their powers from sapient entities.

[The Unknown Ajah]

What would be fighters, I wonder?

How do Fused get their bond? Through a connection to Odium, who is an otherworldly being. Not all of Roshar get their magic the same way. 

Another thought, what is the old magic? Certainly not Paladins or Warlocks.

[Ixthos]

@Kingsdaughter613 and @The Unknown Order I could have done with that sort of discussion a few years back :-P

I'm not entirely sure Brandon used other classes for designing the other systems, only that they as archetypes - and many other classes are based on them, often combining - were used for the big three, which then were extrapolated further and then made more broad. Either way, I do think it is significant that the main three systems or groups are so closely linked to those general ideas. 

 

[mathiau]

On 28/03/2021 at 1:12 PM, Ixthos said:

Sel, at the moment, is one of the most limited planets in terms of Cosmere significance, on account of the magic being region bound,

I completely disagree with that conclusion, F-Duralumin medalion are enough to bypass this issue, they're even considered on the harder end of the way to bypass it

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and Taldain as a seed source of those trying to genetically modify its investiture-linked microbes

Did you mean Ashyn?

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(and once again my obligatory Silverlight is built on top of Ambition's corpse)

I'm interested, what's the original post for that theory?

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• I am convinced that each shard has a reason for settling on the worlds they did, and the reason Odium could claim his actions were legal within the agreement of the shards, as Endowment seems to think about them

I don't understand what that sentence is supposed to mean

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• The Dor seems to be the most versatile of the systems, as any power that can be described programmatically can potentially be employed, with branch conditions, loops, and chaining together effects, possibly even creating macros. The Dor seems to be the most readily shard-like of the powers, without the restrictions of the shards. Hmmm ... could that have been their goal?

Not sure how it's relevant to that question, but the fact Seon are white and Skaze black implies Aona and Skai ended up seeing each other as opposite, like Ruin and Preservation did on Scadrial.

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• Seons and Skaze as AI

What? Where did that came from?

• Quote

  • Odium noted that other shards would be very interested in the power of the surges - is this because of Roshar, or the combination of Honour and Cultivation? And Odium's presence also adds certain elements

He did?

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• And we still don't know about the esoteric powers of voidbinding, or the third, unknown system which is theoretically even more esoteric - could we get even more complex abilities related to real world physics or more abstract supernatural effects and properties?

The answer is clearly yes, I dare anyone to look at the forms of power and still tell me we're not missing most of the equation here

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• Spren as AI

Once again, where does that come from?

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• Ettmetal - could it be linked to anti-investiture in some way

I don't see how. Linked to hybrid investiture obviously but not to anti-investiture

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Did you mean Ashyn?

THe Snad is covered in microbes that is how it stores investiture.

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

THe Snad is covered in microbes that is how it stores investiture.

Is it confirmed? I saw some people talk about lichen

More importantly, Taldain is isolationist 

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yafeshan

I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is Scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a bunch of reasons.

The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people.

Scadrial has an advanced understanding of metallurgy, and for many years was quietly open to visitors from across the cosmere. In the modern era, that has enhanced. It's a much safer place to visit than, say, Sel, Threnody, or First of the Sun.

There are other reasons, too, which we'll get into as the world progresses. Having some prominent cosmere-aware people pulling strings behind the scenes is a big help. If you know other worlds are out there, and are populated, then you're more likely to push toward space travel.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 8, 2017)

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

Is it confirmed? I saw some people talk about lichen

Yes it's in Arcanum Unbounded

[elisium]

 

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I really want to see Scadrians living at least on ringworlds by era 4.

Can’t wait for the halo-cosmere crossover where Fourth Ideal Radiants kill a bunch of Lifeless on a Scadrian ringworld 

[Ixthos]

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

I completely disagree with that conclusion, F-Duralumin medalion are enough to bypass this issue, they're even considered on the harder end of the way to bypass it

As I noted further long, there are indications that that issue can be gotten around, and as the quote you linked to noted Brandon said you have to jump through some hoops to achieve it. My conclusion was that, for the moment, it is not well known or common for the Dor and the other systems to be used beyond their regions and beyond the planet, not that it is impossible, only at present very uncommon.

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

Did you mean Ashyn?

As @Frustration said, I meant Taldain. Though Ashyn, Sel, and Roshar also have examples of organisms which natively feed on and use investiture, but Taldain does seem to be the go to for utalising invested lifeforms. Also, I am using microbe as a catchall term for any single celled or basic multicellular organism - I imagine the lichen colony on a single grain of white sand to be a very small colony, relatively speaking.

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'm interested, what's the original post for that theory?

The original post is here: 

 

I tend to mention it often whenever Silverlight comes up though :-P

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't understand what that sentence is supposed to mean

Ahhh, yeah, it sort of follows on from the previous sentence, which I - and I blame my ADHD - didn't properly flesh out, as I tend to jump around when writing and rework a sentence without checking it still makes sense, or going on tangents in the middle. Basically, I think Devotion and Dominion were trying to build something on Sel - build being making a place or a type of people or a type of magic system, etc. - and that what they were trying to build would violate the agreement of the shards, that they were making something to get around a restriction that the shards were subjected to. Basically, the shards are powerful, but as Hoid noted to Jasnah they don't have freedom, that Hoid has more freedom than they do. The Iree also showed that things can be made that can be hidden from a shard, that the shards are powerful but - as Renarin and Nightblood show - vulnerable and blind at the same time. I think Devotion and Dominion were trying to break the rules on Sel, perhaps by making individuals who had the power or freedom to do things the shards couldn't, things that undermined the agreement between the shards, and so Odium, who always seeks to justify his attacks on other shards, took them out. Endowment, in her letter to Hoid in Oathbringer, said in effect that Devotion and Dominion brought their own doom upon themselves, that they were trying to violate the pact.

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

Not sure how it's relevant to that question, but the fact Seon are white and Skaze black implies Aona and Skai ended up seeing each other as opposite, like Ruin and Preservation did on Scadrial.

One can see oneself as an opposite or as a compliment, the different colours don't necessarily mean they see themselves as enemies, only as two halves that are distinct.

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

What? Where did that came from?

That is a long, long other story :-P basically I think the shards, and splinters, are going to be compared to AI in later stories. Think of the Sibling as an AI build into the Tower and the story makes a lot of sense. I think future spren are going to be tightly woven into control mechanisms of Rosharan technology. I wrote a bit more about it, but only a little more, here: 

 

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

He did?

He did:

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“You offer a mortal life for that of a god ?” Odium demanded. “No, Dalinar. If I win, I want the Knights Radiant. The forces of Alethkar and Urithiru will surrender to my Fused, and your Radiants will end this war. The other foolish kingdoms of men can keep fighting if they wish, but your people and mine will begin preparing for the true war: the one that will begin when the gods of other worlds discover the strength of Surgebinding. Your heirs will be bound to this, as you are.”

Rhythm of War, Chapter 112, Terms

 

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how. Linked to hybrid investiture obviously but not to anti-investiture

This is slightly more roundabout reasoning, but there is an implication that Ruin and Preservation, as shards, are more opposed than any others, that in a sense Ruin is the opposite of Preservation and might be similar to - though not necesserily identical to - Prevervations anti-investiture. Brandon hinted at the idea the site of Ettmetal explosions will have something of significance to the Cosmere. I suspect this will be similar to the discoveries Navani made.

 

2 hours ago, elisium said:

 

Can’t wait for the halo-cosmere crossover where Fourth Ideal Radiants kill a bunch of Lifeless on a Scadrian ringworld 

Indeed!

[mathiau]

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

As I noted further long, there are indications that that issue can be gotten around, and as the quote you linked to noted Brandon said you have to jump through some hoops to achieve it. My conclusion was that, for the moment, it is not well known or common for the Dor and the other systems to be used beyond their regions and beyond the planet, not that it is impossible, only at present very uncommon.

Elantris happened centuries before TFE it's very unlikely they haven't solved this issue

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As @Frustration said, I meant Taldain. Though Ashyn, Sel, and Roshar also have examples of organisms which natively feed on and use investiture, but Taldain does seem to be the go to for utalising invested lifeforms. Also, I am using microbe as a catchall term for any single celled or basic multicellular organism - I imagine the lichen colony on a single grain of white sand to be a very small colony, relatively speaking.

Fair

Taldain is isolationist so I think they won't matter much to late era Cosmere

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The original post is here: 

 

I tend to mention it often whenever Silverlight comes up though :-P

Seems unlikely but heh why not

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Ahhh, yeah, it sort of follows on from the previous sentence, which I - and I blame my ADHD - didn't properly flesh out, as I tend to jump around when writing and rework a sentence without checking it still makes sense, or going on tangents in the middle. Basically, I think Devotion and Dominion were trying to build something on Sel - build being making a place or a type of people or a type of magic system, etc. - and that what they were trying to build would violate the agreement of the shards, that they were making something to get around a restriction that the shards were subjected to. Basically, the shards are powerful, but as Hoid noted to Jasnah they don't have freedom, that Hoid has more freedom than they do. The Iree also showed that things can be made that can be hidden from a shard, that the shards are powerful but - as Renarin and Nightblood show - vulnerable and blind at the same time. I think Devotion and Dominion were trying to break the rules on Sel, perhaps by making individuals who had the power or freedom to do things the shards couldn't, things that undermined the agreement between the shards, and so Odium, who always seeks to justify his attacks on other shards, took them out. Endowment, in her letter to Hoid in Oathbringer, said in effect that Devotion and Dominion brought their own doom upon themselves, that they were trying to violate the pact.

I doubt they broke the pact in the literal sense, there's no actual Oath not to settle on the same planet just an informal agreement, whatever they were doing with Elantris could easily have been contradictory to an informal accord not to give too much power to human (which to be fair Ruin and Preservation also broke) but probably not breaking an Oath

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That is a long, long other story :-P basically I think the shards, and splinters, are going to be compared to AI in later stories. Think of the Sibling as an AI build into the Tower and the story makes a lot of sense. I think future spren are going to be tightly woven into control mechanisms of Rosharan technology. I wrote a bit more about it, but only a little more, here: 

 

Logicsprens can make sprens withdraw and come forth so a Fabrial computer is probably possible. Seons and Skaze can be used to make Fabrials but I doubt they'd have as much different uses as sprens so you'd have to go toward Aon chains computers. For Scadrial it'd probably be more efficient to make mind expanders (give someone a lot of copper, steel and zincminds and they won't need a computer)

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This is slightly more roundabout reasoning, but there is an implication that Ruin and Preservation, as shards, are more opposed than any others, that in a sense Ruin is the opposite of Preservation and might be similar to - though not necesserily identical to - Prevervations anti-investiture. Brandon hinted at the idea the site of Ettmetal explosions will have something of significance to the Cosmere. I suspect this will be similar to the discoveries Navani made.

First, Ettmetal doesn't explode. It react with water in a way that create heat and hydrogen, it's the hydrogen that explodes the ettmetal atoms themseves are fine.

Second Ettmetal being the first material able to react with normal matter is already significant enough to the Cosmere in my opinion

[Ixthos]

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

Elantris happened centuries before TFE it's very unlikely they haven't solved this issue

Fair enough :-P though we'll have to see - it took until Zane I believe until Mistborn thought about hiding coins in their mouths, so maybe they only figured it out about the same time Scadrial or Roshar started moving among the worlds via ship :-P

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

Fair

Taldain is isolationist so I think they won't matter much to late era Cosmere

It is only isolationist because of Autonomy, so, by the logic you mentioned for Sel, it could well be open again by Era 3 or 4.

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

Seems unlikely but heh why not

Maybe, but it is one of my favourite ideas, along with the Rosharan system eventually having its shards held collectively by ten people - so a single shard with ten vessels - and the idea the Cosmere will end with the Power moving to a new cluster to start the process all over again :-P

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

I doubt they broke the pact in the literal sense, there's no actual Oath not to settle on the same planet just an informal agreement, whatever they were doing with Elantris could easily have been contradictory to an informal accord not to give too much power to human (which to be fair Ruin and Preservation also broke) but probably not breaking an Oath

Ahhh, but that wasn't their only agreement I believe, I think the go our own way plan was only part of what they "agreed to", and the rest of what they agreed to was actually binding, that some thought some rules were stricter than others, but that there were rules nevertheless, rather than a single suggestion to stay away. If one was "don't interfere with one another", and another was "don't make X, or try to do X", then going to the same system to work together isn't breaking the first, but if they are going to make X, then it is.

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

Logicsprens can make sprens withdraw and come forth so a Fabrial computer is probably possible. Seons and Skaze can be used to make Fabrials but I doubt they'd have as much different uses as sprens so you'd have to go toward Aon chains computers. For Scadrial it'd probably be more efficient to make mind expanders (give someone a lot of copper, steel and zincminds and they won't need a computer)

Ahhh, you are a fan of Dune too :-) Scadrian mentats sounds cool. I do believe, however, that Sibling-like spren, or spren with minds bound into technology, like the Oathgates and the Soulcasters when the Soulcasters are awake, and like Shardblades but with powers, are going to be a thing. We still don't know if a logicspren is the equivalent of a NAND gate or an entire ALU, or Datapath and Controlpath.

 

On 4/1/2021 at 6:29 PM, mathiau said:

First, Ettmetal doesn't explode. It react with water in a way that create heat and hydrogen, it's the hydrogen that explodes the ettmetal atoms themseves are fine.

Second Ettmetal being the first material able to react with normal matter is already significant enough to the Cosmere in my opinion

Fair enough :-P though Brandon did say they will find something important at the site of those explosions centred on Ettmetal :-)

[apepi]

I feel like different types of even the same investiture uses different attributes. For example much of Sel and Fabrials would mostly use intellect, while Nahel Bonds and Mistborn is much more of an aggressive/body focused type of abilities.

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

It is only isolationist because of Autonomy, so, by the logic you mentioned for Sel, it could well be open again by Era 3 or 4.

I don't see how that would work, it's Taldain's society whose is isolationist not its magic

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Ahhh, but that wasn't their only agreement I believe, I think the go our own way plan was only part of what they "agreed to", and the rest of what they agreed to was actually binding, that some thought some rules were stricter than others, but that there were rules nevertheless, rather than a single suggestion to stay away. If one was "don't interfere with one another", and another was "don't make X, or try to do X", then going to the same system to work together isn't breaking the first, but if they are going to make X, then it is.

Yeah they definitely had other hard agreements, "don't become a Dawnshard" probably being on the top of the list

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Ahhh, you are a fan of Dune too :-)

Absolutely not^^

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Scadrian mentats sounds cool. I do believe, however, that Sibling-like spren, or spren with minds bound into technology, like the Oathgates and the Soulcasters when the Soulcasters are awake, and like Shardblades but with powers, are going to be a thing. We still don't know if a logicspren is the equivalent of a NAND gate or an entire ALU, or Datapath and Controlpath.

Logicsprens are almost certainly able to do at least AND or XOR so you'd only need to find a way to do a NO gate to be able to do create the full boolean logic (if it's XOR you'd technically wouldn't but it'd be cleaner if you had it)

I don't know what an entire ALU, Datapath and Controlpath are

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Fair enough :-P though Brandon did say they will find something important at the site of those explosions centred on Ettmetal :-)

Probably Ettmetal hydroxide

Edited April 2, 2021 by mathiau

[LewsTherinTelescope]

At some point, Taldain's opening back up, it sounds like.

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Brandon Sanderson

Hehe… *long pause* There are places in the Cognitive Realm that are somewhat nexus-like, like you're talking about. Yes there are places like that. ...So Roshar might actually be the easiest place to get to in the cosmere, like from planet to planet. Sel is probably the hardest, right now. For a long time Taldain was very hard, but not anymore.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

(It's unclear what point in the timeline he's talking about.)

[Ixthos]

On 4/3/2021 at 1:22 AM, mathiau said:

I don't see how that would work, it's Taldain's society whose is isolationist not its magic

Taldain is only on lockdown because of Autonomy, the shard is preventing people from coming or going, not the cultures - Khriss herself wants to return but can't.

 

On 4/3/2021 at 1:22 AM, mathiau said:

Yeah they definitely had other hard agreements, "don't become a Dawnshard" probably being on the top of the list

Indeed! I could certainly see that as a restriction, though I also wonder if the shards can make more Dawnshards, or if they can but not making them is also a restriction because they used them as weapons and don't want to be vulnerable.

 

On 4/3/2021 at 1:22 AM, mathiau said:

Absolutely not^^

It would be wise not to lie to a Truthsayer :-P

 

On 4/3/2021 at 1:22 AM, mathiau said:

Logicsprens are almost certainly able to do at least AND or XOR so you'd only need to find a way to do a NO gate to be able to do create the full boolean logic (if it's XOR you'd technically wouldn't but it'd be cleaner if you had it)

I don't know what an entire ALU, Datapath and Controlpath are

The ALU, or arithmetic logic unit, is the part of a computer that performs arithmetic and logical operations. In essence you feed it the contents of two registers and an instruction on what operation to perform, and it performs that operation on the data (i.e. you can tell it to perform summation on the two values, or logical AND between corresponding bits, etc. it basically is a bunch of gates in parallel connected to a multiplexer, the operation to perform basically being to select which of those parallel elements to connect to the output). The Datapath contains the ALU and connects it to the various registers and funnels results to and from the ALU and the registers. The Controlpath controls the Datapath, telling it which registers to access and which functions to perform. That is a summary, but the general idea :-)

 

On 4/3/2021 at 1:22 AM, mathiau said:

Probably Ettmetal hydroxide

... You know, this is suddenly making me think of those people who put Radium in various beverages in the early days of discovering radioactivity.

 

On 4/3/2021 at 1:56 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

At some point, Taldain's opening back up, it sounds like.

(It's unclear what point in the timeline he's talking about.)

Thanks! That is very interesting information!

[mathiau]

11 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Taldain is only on lockdown because of Autonomy, the shard is preventing people from coming or going, not the cultures - Khriss herself wants to return but can't.

That doesn't seem to be what Brandon said, I think Taldain's civilisation is influenced by Autonomy which made the civilisation isolationist

Quote

Indeed! I could certainly see that as a restriction, though I also wonder if the shards can make more Dawnshards, or if they can but not making them is also a restriction because they used them as weapons and don't want to be vulnerable.

That's an interesting question. There are 4 still Dawnshards so if they can they probably have yet to do it

Quote

It would be wise not to lie to a Truthsayer :-P

I have no idea what is a Truthsayer.

Well, from the context I assume they can tell lies from truths. (by the way, lies and truths are not each other's opposite, even though lies are rarely true)

Quote

The ALU, or arithmetic logic unit, is the part of a computer that performs arithmetic and logical operations. In essence you feed it the contents of two registers and an instruction on what operation to perform, and it performs that operation on the data (i.e. you can tell it to perform summation on the two values, or logical AND between corresponding bits, etc. it basically is a bunch of gates in parallel connected to a multiplexer, the operation to perform basically being to select which of those parallel elements to connect to the output). The Datapath contains the ALU and connects it to the various registers and funnels results to and from the ALU and the registers. The Controlpath controls the Datapath, telling it which registers to access and which functions to perform. That is a summary, but the general idea :-)

Ok, I doubt a single Logicspren would be able to do more than a single logical door.

Firesprens have shown some weird quantum-ish properties and Rushu mentioned "an interesting fining about the effect of Firesprens and Logicsprens" so there's a possibilites Firesprens can act as qubits and Logicsprens fabirals as quantum doors

[therunner]

14 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's an interesting question. There are 4 still Dawnshards so if they can they probably have yet to do it

I think creation of Dawnshard would be a bit beyond even Shards abilities, at best I think they might create sort of corrupted Dawnshard that would skewed by Shards intent?

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Firesprens have shown some weird quantum-ish properties and Rushu mentioned "an interesting fining about the effect of Firesprens and Logicsprens" so there's a possibilites Firesprens can act as qubits and Logicsprens fabirals as quantum doors

If Roshar is going to get quantum computers sooner than we do, I will be quite amused....and a bit sad.

[Ixthos]

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

That doesn't seem to be what Brandon said, I think Taldain's civilisation is influenced by Autonomy which made the civilisation isolationist

To the best of my knowledge the only quotes about Taldain's reasons for being isolated is because of Autonomy, which actually suggests to me the cultures WANTED to be more Cosmere active, but Autonomy or an avatar of Autonomy felt this would be determental to either Taldain or other world's Autonomy - that is, it also could explain the desire to destroy Scadrial, any world that starts to travel to the stars becomes a threat to the idea of other's autonomy, so destroy them. Taldain was preparing to use their advanced technology to subjugate others, and so now they are cut off.

 

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I have no idea what is a Truthsayer.

Well, from the context I assume they can tell lies from truths. (by the way, lies and truths are not each other's opposite, even though lies are rarely true)

A Truthsayer is someone in the Dune setting who can tell if someone is lying, but there are ways around it. The Baron made sure that he didn't know precisely where (and I think when and how) two of the main characters were to be killed, so that when the Emperor questioned him with his Truthsayer the Baron could truly say he had no idea what happened to them - I think political etiquette meant he couldn't be asked point-blank if he was trying to get around telling the truth while still orchestrating their deaths, but I would need to look that up again.

 

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

Ok, I doubt a single Logicspren would be able to do more than a single logical door.

Possibly, we will have to see. Still, if a spren can be imprisoned in a small enough gemstone, I image a proper arrangement could turn a single logicspren into an entire working CPU, so little waffers of gems rather than silicon.

 

21 hours ago, therunner said:

I think creation of Dawnshard would be a bit beyond even Shards abilities, at best I think they might create sort of corrupted Dawnshard that would skewed by Shards intent?

That does seem likely. It also, depending on the nature of the Dawnshard's powers, might be a significant cost in terms of power to make one.

 

21 hours ago, therunner said:

If Roshar is going to get quantum computers sooner than we do, I will be quite amused....and a bit sad.

Well, we are slowly getting there - it probably will take them a long time in setting to go that far - I wonder if they already have the mathematical tools for this already?