Dalinar and the Contest (read with caution)

[Procrastination]

We know that Dalinar and Odium will have a contest of some kind ten days from the time RoW ends. We don't know any specifics except the agreement, what's being wagered, and that Dalinar is apparently going to be his own champion. (plus a little more buuut I'm trying to keep this short )

I'm an optimist, don't get me wrong. I want Dalinar to win. But I'm thinking that he will lose.

-Wait! Don't leave! Hear me out!

You still here? 

Good!

The problem is, what will they DO if he wins?? (they being everyone) Odium, the Fused, and the Unmade will be gone. The Regals's powers are granted by Odium and the Fused. The regular singer soldiers will die quickly. Who is there left to have as an antagonist??

This will be book 5 in a ten-book series. What would Sanderson do?? Kill off Dalinar and perhaps Kaladin (as much as I like him, he's my favorite character, my second being maybe Veil, but she's gone..., I doubt that he'll get a happy ending. It'll likely be dying to save someone he loves, like Oroden, or even hates, like Moash, after swearing the 5th Ideal.) and have the Radiants be a group of freedom fighters in a Odium-controlled world, or have everyone who lives have a happier ending and fight occasional new bad guys while practicing their powers??

As sad as it is, if I were Brandon, I would do option A.

But maybe it'll be option B and everything will be happy!

...But probably not.

(Maybe it would be something in between though...I can't tell the future.)

Edited March 28, 2021 by rosharian_cat
Spelling error

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, rosharian_cat said:

This will be book 5 in a ten-book series. 

Book five in a ten book, two five book arcs, series. There is at least ten years in between books 5 and 6.

[Procrastination]

Yeah, I'm interested to see if Brandon will release a short(er) novella that's in between the two arcs. I'm so sad it's probably going to be like 30 years until the series is completely finished but these are huge books.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, rosharian_cat said:

Yeah, I'm interested to see if Brandon will release a short(er) novella that's in between the two arcs. I'm so sad it's probably going to be like 30 years until the series is completely finished but these are huge books.

it's only going to be about 20 more years.

[apepi]

What if we don't learn who wins until the 10th book?

[Andy92]

I don’t think he’s going to have Odium completely lose after just giving the Shard a new Vessel, but there’s the other option that Odium meets his demise in book 5 and Cultivation becomes the antagonist...

I think Taravangian will be around for a while though. His story has been setup too long through The Diagram to not continue playing a key role into the rest of the series imo. 

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, apepi said:

What if we don't learn who wins until the 10th book?

It's not a ten book series, its a two five book parts, ten book series

[Quick Ben]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's not a ten book series, its a two five book parts, ten book series

Thats still a 10 book series.

With regard to the OP's, i agree that having T-Odium be the big end reveal in book 4, it is unlikely he will disappear by end of book 5.

So logical assumption is Dalinar loses or Taravangian does something to make reneague on there agreement thus freeing him from the Rosharion system.

although given the future of the cosmere is a "space opera" i think it makes narrative sense for T-Odium to win, spend 5/10 years consolidating power, then launch on offensive againt the rest of the cosmere, to "save" everyone.

Personally i hope the above happens, Dalinar winning would mean next 5 books in the series would be narratively restricted like you say

[LuckyJim]

I don't think the story needs Odium to stick around (at least in an active capacity like it was in the last couple books) to maintain a conflict. Even without the shard, there's still the millennia of violence that would prevent the singers and humans from reconciling and creating an easy peace. Not to mention, there's no way Narak is big enough for all the singers across the entirety of Roshar to settle there, and many of them would probably want to stay in the lands they claimed while serving Odium. It's pretty unlikely that there's just gonna be a clean peace once Odium is defeated.

They can fight without him, as they did during the False Desolation, and with Ba-Ado-Mishram likely to make a return in book 5, she could give them access to the Regal forms of power once again, even if they can't gain the Fused brands. Not to mention, with the recent turn of the Lightspren, it's possible other spren might decide that they want to support the singers' independence.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

Thats still a 10 book series.

It's ten books in the same way that Alloy of Law is book four of Mistborn, they might as well be separate series.

[Andy92]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It's ten books in the same way that Alloy of Law is book four of Mistborn, they might as well be separate series.

Edited this into a spoiler tag since we’re in the SA only thread. Not really any major Mistborn spoilers but just to be safe:

Spoiler

We technically don’t know how different the story will be. It’s only a 10-15 year jump, not 300, and at least some portion of the current characters will still be playing active roles in the second arc. 

You could stop reading Mistborn after The Hero of Ages, and it has a nice, self-contained ending. We don’t know yet if book 5 of SA will end in the same way. 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Andy92

[Quick Ben]

58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's ten books in the same way that Alloy of Law is book four of Mistborn, they might as well be separate series.

Except Alloy of law isn't book 4 of the mistborn series. 

Its a 10 book series with a time jump after book 5.

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

Except Alloy of law isn't book 4 of the mistborn series. 

Its a 10 book series with a time jump after book 5.

it's two arcs, it is a different story that's the point.

[Quick Ben]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

it's two arcs, it is a different story that's the point.

Yes it is 2 arcs, but of the same story, the story is a 10 book series.

But look ok you can count it as 2 5 book series, or 3 triollogies and a standalone or however you want, but its a 10 book series. 

Correcting someone who says a 10 book series is just pedantic, and pointless.

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

Yes it is 2 arcs, but of the same story, the story is a 10 book series.

But look ok you can count it as 2 5 book series, or 3 triollogies and a standalone or however you want, but its a 10 book series. 

Correcting someone who says a 10 book series is just pedantic, and pointless.

I was saying that book five is the end of an arc, and so there is no narrative reason for the story to be continued, nor is it evidence for Odium to win.

[hskeeter]

21 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't think the story needs Odium to stick around (at least in an active capacity like it was in the last couple books) to maintain a conflict. Even without the shard, there's still the millennia of violence that would prevent the singers and humans from reconciling and creating an easy peace. Not to mention, there's no way Narak is big enough for all the singers across the entirety of Roshar to settle there, and many of them would probably want to stay in the lands they claimed while serving Odium. It's pretty unlikely that there's just gonna be a clean peace once Odium is defeated.

They can fight without him, as they did during the False Desolation, and with Ba-Ado-Mishram likely to make a return in book 5, she could give them access to the Regal forms of power once again, even if they can't gain the Fused brands. Not to mention, with the recent turn of the Lightspren, it's possible other spren might decide that they want to support the singers' independence.

IIRC the agreement differences between if Odium wins of if Dalinar wins is mostly how land is split up and if Odium is on Braize or Roshar.  In either case Odium is still in the system and will have some influence on the people of Roshar.  There is plenty to write about on the Singer/Human interaction for the 5th book and the Second arc of 5 books.  I really doubt the 5th book will only be 10 Roshar days in duration.  They are shorter days.  

[Zapata]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:41 PM, rosharian_cat said:

The problem is, what will they DO if he wins?? (they being everyone) Odium, the Fused, and the Unmade will be gone. The Regals's powers are granted by Odium and the Fused. The regular singer soldiers will die quickly. Who is there left to have as an antagonist??

well... Odium will be the only one gone. He said he cannot recall the Fused or the voidspren.

Quote

“I said I cannot agree,” Odium said. “The Everstorm has changed everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered by the Everstorm. The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct. I am literally unable to do as you ask, not without destroying myself in the process.”

From chapter 112, Terms

[Waffles]

This makes me wonder if there's a loophole in the contest of champions favoring Hoid if nobody wins. I assume Hoid is still out of bounds to odium if the contest of champions never concludes (eg the popular but boring  gavinor theory)

[AquaRegia]

I agree with @rosharian_cat - the result of the Contest will likely be death for Dalinar (hopefully a clean and honorable one), ugly for the coalition, and messy for everyone, singers included.  If everything settles down to peace and prosperity, what conflict will be left to write five more books about?  This is NOT a HoA-AoL situation.  Brandon knows, as well as anyone on this spinning ball, that valor, heroism, courage, sacrifice - all these ideals we revere - can only happen in the midst of strife and suffering.  Bet your brightest sphere there will be suffering galore... enough to fuel five more books.

My guess is that Gavinor will be an important character in the back five, NOT in the Contest of Champions.  The obvious choice for Odium's Champion is GAVILAR.

If Gavilar does NOT return to play a vital part in the next book, I will eat my copy of Rhythm of War.  And it's a hardcover.

[Bejarden]

10 hours ago, Waffles said:

This makes me wonder if there's a loophole in the contest of champions favoring Hoid if nobody wins. I assume Hoid is still out of bounds to odium if the contest of champions never concludes (eg the popular but boring  gavinor theory)

Hoid seems to realize there is a loophole in the epilogue and is terrified

 

3 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I agree with @rosharian_cat - the result of the Contest will likely be death for Dalinar (hopefully a clean and honorable one), ugly for the coalition, and messy for everyone, singers included.  If everything settles down to peace and prosperity, what conflict will be left to write five more books about?  This is NOT a HoA-AoL situation.  Brandon knows, as well as anyone on this spinning ball, that valor, heroism, courage, sacrifice - all these ideals we revere - can only happen in the midst of strife and suffering.  Bet your brightest sphere there will be suffering galore... enough to fuel five more books.

My guess is that Gavinor will be an important character in the back five, NOT in the Contest of Champions.  The obvious choice for Odium's Champion is GAVILAR.

If Gavilar does NOT return to play a vital part in the next book, I will eat my copy of Rhythm of War.  And it's a hardcover.

the problem is from a narritve perspective. For all we know Gavilar is dead and has been for 6 years. If Brandon brought him back in only one book it would be like (Star wars spoilers) Sidius coming back with no foreshadowing. It just woudn’t work

I do believe that Gavilar will be a player, but mostly in the back half

[AquaRegia]

8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

the problem is from a narritve perspective. For all we know Gavilar is dead and has been for 6 years. If Brandon brought him back in only one book it would be like (Star wars spoilers) Sidius coming back with no foreshadowing. It just woudn’t work

I do believe that Gavilar will be a player, but mostly in the back half

Did you really just say "no foreshadowing"?  Oh, I see, the Star Wars example had none, agreed.  Brandon has given us TONS of foreshadowing regarding Gavilar.  Given his large role in both Dalinar's and Eshonai/Venli's flashbacks, not to mention every single novel's prologue, I feel we know him plenty well enough for him to be a potent, satisfying threat in book 5.

While it's possible Gavilar is a back half character... I think it unlikely.  He's been set up as the perfect opponent for Dalinar and Navani (just imagine the emotional baggage!), and I think both of their arcs will be completed in the front five.  Odium choosing Gavilar as his Champion in the contest is the high-percentage bet, in my mind.

[Ookla of Colors]

Gavilar is dead. We watched Szeth kill him. From four different angles. (Szeth, Jasnah, Navani, and Eshonai.) He wasn't Invested, he wasn't Preserved, it's been years, there's no way he's coming back. Not even for Odium.

[Bejarden]

While I don’t agree with Tani she does have a point.

To the average reader (that doesn’t spend time theory crafting) Gavilar is dead 4 times over. And if you haven’t read SH you don’t know what a CS is

I agree 100% he’s probably still alive but it takes time for those changes to happen in book if it happens to fast all these millions of people that only read these books once or twice will be pretty angry at Brandon

@AquaRegia

Edited March 30, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Ookla of Colors]

@Bejardin1250 (Tani is a she.)

 

And it takes specialness to become a cognitive shadow. As far as we know, nobody cared about CS-ing Gavilar.

 

I bet Sanderson will write Book 5 prologue in Gavilar's POV. And he might be CS-ed.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Tani

[Leuthie]

If Dalinar wins, Odium goes back to Braize and gives up the land his forces hold, but his forces remain. If Dalinar loses, Odium keeps the land he holds but stops the fighting and stays on Roshar. Both outcomes result in a Cold War situation. The stalemate condition simply keeps the status quo with Odium and Dalinar locked in the Contest. All of those are pretty anti-climactic for the front 5 but are conducive to a pause in the fighting long enough for conflict to generate in Book 6 through 10.

However, actions external to the results of the Contest may create a failure, success or pyrrhic victory condition that will create a front 5 climax without the Contest resulting in some magnificent change. Stormfather dies, BAM's release severs Odium's forces' connection to the Everstorm, Ishar slams the door shut on Odium using Kaladin and Szeth and Dalinar and the remaining Heralds somehow, etc.