So. Ishar.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

44 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Is there some overindulgent glutton out there who could nab Ashertmarn?

We finally found a combat use for Sebarial!

 

[GroundPetrel]

40 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We finally found a combat use for Sebarial!

 

"Palona, dearest!  Look what I got you!"  

"Turi, what am I supposed to do with a trapped spirit of mindless overindulgent partying?"  

"...well, I'm not entirely certain, but I was thinking it would make an excellent centerpiece?"  

slap  "Take that thing and give it to the Radiants to guard!  I won't have it in my house!"  

"Storming woman, I'm the most henpecked man in the world, I swear to...grumble grumble"  goes off to do what she said anyway.  

[Isilel]

On 23 March 2021 at 2:31 AM, Zanarkand said:

I know that there are people who don't like this idea, but I'm almost willing to put money on the theory that the last bondsmith of the old Radiants was actually Ishar. There are too many connections between Melishi and Ishar to be coincidence.

But didn't RoW prove that Melishi had been the Sibling's Bondsmith? Wouldn't they have noticed if he was Ishar? Given that there is something different about Herald's souls according to Ivory in OB and that Ishar must have visited Urithiru before Aharietam...

[Zanarkand]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:58 AM, Isilel said:

But didn't RoW prove that Melishi had been the Sibling's Bondsmith? Wouldn't they have noticed if he was Ishar? Given that there is something different about Herald's souls according to Ivory in OB and that Ishar must have visited Urithiru before Aharietam...

Valid points for sure. My main reason for thinking Melishi = Ishar other than their character similarities (ambition, megalomania, innovative use of bondsmith powers) is the withdrawal of the Sibling's bond with Melishi, as discussed during Adolin's trial in RoW. The timing is ambiguous so I can't be sure but it seems to me that the Sibling withdrew their bond with Melishi BEFORE the imprisonment of BAM, as evidenced by the abandonment of Urithiru by the Radiants prior to the Recreance. However in the Urithiru gemstone archive we are basically told that the imprisonment of BAM required bondsmith powers. Where could Melishi have gotten bondsmith powers without his bond to the Sibling? Perhaps a quick jaunt to Shinovar to pick up a certain blade...

As to how nobody knew that they were the same person, who is to say they didn't? Melishi could just be one of Ishar's many names and the record of his true identity perhaps just didn't survive the millenia.

I know its not airtight and it poses potential problems but it's my pet theory dang it and I'm sticking to it! 

[bmcclure7]

On 3/22/2021 at 8:07 PM, MasterGhandalf said:

Though we've only seen him directly in a couple of scenes so far, I find Ishar one of the most intriguing of the Heralds and a character I'm very interested in figuring out more as Stormlight progresses. Most obviously because, though he doesn't get as discussed as often as, say, Jezrien, and isn't set to be a main POV character like Taln or Ash, almost every time he's mentioned we find out more of the major events of Roshar's history that he's had a hand in - seriously it seems like half the time a rock gets turned over regarding the history and lore of Roshar, we find him hiding under it. Whose experiments with the Dawnshards and/or the surges apparently led to the destruction of Ashyn? Ishar's. Who founded the Oathpact? Ishar did. Who became the Herald associated with the Bondsmiths, arguably the most powerful Radiant order? Ishar.  Who enforced order on the proto-Radiants and was apparently already powerful enough to personally destroy them all if they refused? Ishar. Who convinced the other Heralds to abandon the Oathpact, or at least showed them how? Ishar. Who convinced Nale that he had to hunt down surgebinders to stop the coming of the Everstorm? Ishar (and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he also convinced Kalak to start the Sons of Honor, considering Kalak and Nale hung out at least occasionally). Who has Ash convinced he's the only Herald to still be sane and trustworthy, despite being a ranting megalomaniac? Ishar. Who's that Tukari warlord with a god complex who gets namedropped every now and again? Ishar. And who's apparently involved in some way with the Shin Stone Shamans? Ishar again. 

 

The point being, dude's had his fingers in a lot of pies, even for a Herald. And it seems like he was a very dangerous man even before he went all megalomaniacal. I, for one, have been suspicious of how often his name keeps cropping up from as early as Words of Radiance, and each further book only reinforces my belief that this is a guy to watch and be wary of. From what we see in Rhythm of War he's scary powerful and involved in some strange and creepy things (and I have a feeling we've only seen the tip of the iceberg regarding what he's really capable of). With Dalinar sending Kal and Szeth to bring him to heel it looks like he's being set up for an important role in book five - which, interestingly was originally supposed to be Dalinar's book (aka, the Bondsmith book). Personally, I don't trust even Ishar's moment of sanity; sane or mad, I think there's more going on with him than we've yet been privy too. Now, everything I mentioned above could be just the random acts of a madman, but personally, I'm inclined to doubt it- Ishar may be a madman, but he's also a genius, and I think he's got some sort of endgame in mind even if it doesn't make sense to anyone but him. Is his ranting about taking up Honor and Odium and becoming a new Adonalsim just the delusions of a megalomaniac, or does he actually have some sort of plan to achieve it, even if it probably won't work (he's not actually Honor's champion, for one). Or does sane!Ishar have some other plan that got buried under the character of Tezim the God-Priest? How has he convinced the other Heralds to listen to him - is he just more rational when the person he thinks is Odium's champion isn't around, or does he (as I've seen suggested) know some trick with Connection to make people trust him (which is incredibly creepy in its own right, if true)? Why is he experimenting on spren? Why does he want Dalinar to meet him in Shinovar specifically? And, perhaps most importantly of all, will he be dealt with in Book Five or will he continue to play a role (as an ally or an enemy) in the back half of the series? 

 

Personally, I've got a lot of thoughts, but few that feel like concrete answers. But I do think, one way or another, Ishar is going to have a very important role to play in how things unfold from here. Anyone else have thoughts on the Herald of Luck? 

 

 I think hes trying to make new heralds. A lot of attention is put on the fact that the heralds are like Spren  But with physical bodies. I believe that Ishar is trying to figure out how to replicate this process so he can make more heralds to replace the old.   While not human Spren are similar to  Cognitive shadows So it makes sense to experiment on them When trying to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow of physical body like the Herald's.

Edited March 30, 2021 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 

 I think hes trying to make new heralds. A lot of attention is put on the fact that the heralds are like Spren  But with physical bodies. I believe that Ishar is trying to figure out how to replicate this process so he can make more heralds to replace the old.   While not human Sprint or similar to  Cognitive shadows So it makes sense to experiment on them When trying to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow of physical body like the Herald's.

I like this idea a lot.

[RedBlue]

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I think hes trying to make new heralds. A lot of attention is put on the fact that the heralds are like Spren  But with physical bodies. I believe that Ishar is trying to figure out how to replicate this process so he can make more heralds to replace the old.   While not human Sprint or similar to  Cognitive shadows So it makes sense to experiment on them When trying to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow of physical body like the Herald's.

Good theory, makes sense. Especially if he thinks that making new Heralds will allow the original Heralds to retire. Ishar could be thinking this is his ticket out of immortality.

[Master Silver]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:07 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 

 I think hes trying to make new heralds. A lot of attention is put on the fact that the heralds are like Spren  But with physical bodies. I believe that Ishar is trying to figure out how to replicate this process so he can make more heralds to replace the old.   While not human Spren are similar to  Cognitive shadows So it makes sense to experiment on them When trying to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow of physical body like the Herald's.

The main benefit of replacing the heralds with spren, would be spren are incapable of breaking their word, unlike humans. Which means the oath pact would be binding. What if the heralds become the "spren" of the new heralds. Two years and then preview chapters? I can't wait.

[WandererNearby]

 

@Zanarkand What if the reason why the Sibling was so hurt by humans was because he/she/it/they/tower(really no idea what to use here) was deceived by Ishar? The rough timeline would be:

1. Ishar wants to trap BAM but realizes Bondsmith powers are required and for whatever reason didn't want the Radiants to know he was doing it. 

2. Radiants are guarding his blade well enough that he would have to openly fight his way in. He decides to sneakily get Bondsmith powers. 

3. He goes to Urithiru as Melishi and tricks the Sibling into bonding. He chooses the Sibling because he had the least experience with the Sibling. Plus, control of Urithiru gives him a bunch of control over Radiants if he feels like holding all ten order hostage.

4. While he's figuring out how to trap BAM, the Sibling thinks "Hey, this dude knows more than me about Bondsmithing. The only human who knows more than me is Ishar. I wonder..." and then confronts him. Ishar somehow keeps the bond forcibly which emotional hurts the Sibling. 

5. The betrayal hurts the Sibling terribly. Maybe the Sibling loved Ishar previously as he's the herald of Bondsmith so it was a double betrayal. 

6. Ishar threatens to break his oath to the Sibling so the Sibling doesn't tell anyone. Then, he goes to trap BAM and takes all of the Radiants the Sibling trusts with him.

7. Traps BAM then tells everyone that Melishi is retiring. 

8. Ishar cuts connection to Sibling then goes back to where he came from.