Tapping and storing at once

[therunner]

Hello,

maybe this is obvious, but can feruchemist tap and store at the same time? Into two different metalminds?

EDIT: I did mean tap and store the same attribute, sorry for not stating it clearly.

Edited March 22, 2021 by therunner
Clarification of question

[Zapata]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hello,

maybe this is obvious, but can feruchemist tap and store at the same time? Into two different metalminds?

I'm pretty sure Sazed does this a lot in Era 1. 

[therunner]

Alright, thank you. It has been a while since I last red Era 1.

[Dunkum]

34 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I'm pretty sure Sazed does this a lot in Era 1. 

the same attribute or different attributes?  pretty sure there is noting to stop you storing weight while tapping strength or whatever.  but Im not sure you can simultanesouly tap and store the same attribute, basically to transfer from one metalmind to another

[Aspiring Writer]

27 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

but Im not sure you can simultanesouly tap and store the same attribute, basically to transfer from one metalmind to another

You can, but you lose some of the attributes in the tranfer.

[Honorless]

I don't remember any mention in-text of such a limit and can't find any WoB on it either. Regardless, you need to have some existing amount of attribute stored already in your metalmind to be able to tap it. You should be able to store and tap at the same time as long as you already have some gas in the tank, so to speak.

Still not a viable strategy, I think, as in the hypothetical situation where it is possible, the draw from tapping would be larger than the ongoing storage, and the tapped attribute would be weaker because of the ongoing storage. Plus if it were a viable method, someone would've discovered it and would've disseminated it within the Synod.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Honorless

[Dunkum]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I don't remember any mention in-text of such a limit and can't find any WoB on it either. Regardless, you need to have some existing amount of attribute stored already in your metalmind to be able to tap it. You should be able to store and tap at the same time as long as you already have some gas in the tank, so to speak.

I suppose we'll know more in future books.  up until BoM there wouldn't have been much reason for someone to try it.  now, however, it might make sense to try to transfer a charge from an unkeyed metalmind into one of you own.

[therunner]

Thank you all for answers, it seems that there is no such limitations, or it was not mentioned yet.

1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

I suppose we'll know more in future books.  up until BoM there wouldn't have been much reason for someone to try it.  now, however, it might make sense to try to transfer a charge from an unkeyed metalmind into one of you own.

I was interested in this, because if it is possible to do that feruchemist has partial way to overcome inefficiency inherent in tapping faster than attribute was stored. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) each increment in tapping speed is harder than before (e.g. 5/6 efficiency for doubling, but only 1/2 efficiency for tripling of tapping speed, and even less than 1/2 for quadrupling and more).

However if feruchemist can tap and store the same attribute at the same time, they could tap at 2x speed (at 5/6 efficiency) immediately store it into a second metalmind and then tap these stores at 2x the speed again. Since in the second metalmind the attribute is stored already at this increased rate, tapping at twice the speed they were stored at will introduce again only the 5/6 multiplier. Now, the combined efficiency for going from the original investiture to this final metalmind is only 5/6 * 5/6 =~ 7/10, so the efficiency is greater than if we tapped the first metalmind at 4x speed directly (were the efficiency would be less than 1/2).

[Dunkum]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Thank you all for answers, it seems that there is no such limitations, or it was not mentioned yet.

I was interested in this, because if it is possible to do that feruchemist has partial way to overcome inefficiency inherent in tapping faster than attribute was stored. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) each increment in tapping speed is harder than before (e.g. 5/6 efficiency for doubling, but only 1/2 efficiency for tripling of tapping speed, and even less than 1/2 for quadrupling and more).

However if feruchemist can tap and store the same attribute at the same time, they could tap at 2x speed (at 5/6 efficiency) immediately store it into a second metalmind and then tap these stores at 2x the speed again. Since in the second metalmind the attribute is stored already at this increased rate, tapping at twice the speed they were stored at will introduce again only the 5/6 multiplier. Now, the combined efficiency for going from the original investiture to this final metalmind is only 5/6 * 5/6 =~ 7/10, so the efficiency is greater than if we tapped the first metalmind at 4x speed directly (were the efficiency would be less than 1/2).

doesn't work that way.  if you tapped it to get to 2x sp an stored all that back into a new metalmind, ten tried to tap that metalmind to get up to 2x speed, you still hit the 5/6 efficiency issue.  to use real numbers - if you spent 12 hours at 1/2 speed then tapped that to gt to 2x speed at 5/6 efficiency, you'd have 5 hours worth of 2x speed (1 hour of 2x speed requires 2 hours at half speed to store).  dump all that into a new steelmind and try to withdraw it back up to 2x speed again and you have 5 * 5/6 = 4.16667 hours ( hours and 10 minutes) worth of 2x speed.

[therunner]

8 hours ago, Dunkum said:

doesn't work that way.  if you tapped it to get to 2x sp an stored all that back into a new metalmind, ten tried to tap that metalmind to get up to 2x speed, you still hit the 5/6 efficiency issue.  to use real numbers - if you spent 12 hours at 1/2 speed then tapped that to gt to 2x speed at 5/6 efficiency, you'd have 5 hours worth of 2x speed (1 hour of 2x speed requires 2 hours at half speed to store).  dump all that into a new steelmind and try to withdraw it back up to 2x speed again and you have 5 * 5/6 = 4.16667 hours ( hours and 10 minutes) worth of 2x speed.

My assumption is that you if you withdraw at the same speed as you stored, you have no loss. So in your example you would end up drawing from the second metalmind at 2x the speed of storage (where you already stored 2x the human speed, because at the time of storing you were tapping a metalmind) you now get 4x the original amount of stored speed for 4.166 hours. If done directly, i.e. one metalmind tap at 4x the speed you would get less than 1,5 hours of tapping at 4x speed.

So the steps would be (content of first metalmind, content of second metalmind)

1. Store 12 hours of 50% speed into the first metalmind (12 hours of 50% speed increase, 0)
2. Tap the first metalmind at 2x the speed, hitting 5/6 efficiency, so you get 5 hours of 100% speed bonus.
3. You immediately start to store this into the second metalmind and do this for 5 hours (0, 5 hours of 100% speed increase)
4. You tap the second metalmind at 2x the speed, hitting 5/6 efficiency, and you get 4 hours 10 minutes of 200% speed increase.

If you tapped the first metalmind directly at 4x speed (to get 200% speed increase), you would be hit with efficiency penalty of 1/2 or worse so you get ~1/2 * 12/4 = 1,5 hours of 200% bonus speed for total speed 300%. Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 ):

"Let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength (5/6 inefficiency for 2x), or maybe 10min at 250% strength (1/2 inefficiency for 3x)"

The point of the see-saw process is that it is more efficient, if you get no loss from tapping at the same speed you are storing and you can store the reserves you are currently tapping. The downside of the method outlined above is that it takes some additional time to prepare.

Edited March 23, 2021 by therunner
inserted link to WoB

[Dunkum]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

My assumption is that you if you withdraw at the same speed as you stored, you have no loss. So in your example you would end up drawing from the second metalmind at 2x the speed of storage (where you already stored 2x the human speed, because at the time of storing you were tapping a metalmind) you now get 4x the original amount of stored speed for 4.166 hours. If done directly, i.e. one metalmind tap at 4x the speed you would get less than 1,5 hours of tapping at 4x speed.

So the steps would be (content of first metalmind, content of second metalmind)

1. Store 12 hours of 50% speed into the first metalmind (12 hours of 50% speed increase, 0)
2. Tap the first metalmind at 2x the speed, hitting 5/6 efficiency, so you get 5 hours of 100% speed bonus.
3. You immediately start to store this into the second metalmind and do this for 5 hours (0, 5 hours of 100% speed increase)
4. You tap the second metalmind at 2x the speed, hitting 5/6 efficiency, and you get 4 hours 10 minutes of 200% speed increase.

If you tapped the first metalmind directly at 4x speed (to get 200% speed increase), you would be hit with efficiency penalty of 1/2 or worse so you get ~1/2 * 12/4 = 1,5 hours of 200% bonus speed for total speed 300%. Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 ):

"Let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength (5/6 inefficiency for 2x), or maybe 10min at 250% strength (1/2 inefficiency for 3x)"

The point of the see-saw process is that it is more efficient, if you get no loss from tapping at the same speed you are storing and you can store the reserves you are currently tapping. The downside of the method outlined above is that it takes some additional time to prepare.

yea I see what you are getting at, but it doesnt work that way:

 

Quote

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

Does the loss during the withdrawal of large amounts of attribute depend on the rate of original storage?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

from here https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803

[therunner]

52 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

yea I see what you are getting at, but it doesnt work that way:

 

from here https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803

Ah I was not aware of this WoB. Thank you then, both for answering my original question and then for the follow up.  This is interesting to know.

Edited March 23, 2021 by therunner

[vilhjalmr]

My assumption on the efficiency part has always been not that it is a limit on how fast you can take the power, but how much power it takes to stretch the body farther.  Like a rubber band, stretching it to double its size takes a certain amount of effort, but stretching it from double to triple takes more than double that effort.  The further that you stretch from original the faster it uses the power.  So in theory, if you were pulling from one metalmind, and dumping into another simultaneously, the power would just flow from one to the other and since it is not stretching the body remain mostly unchanged. 

That said, that is where my brain is on the situation, I have not looked through WoB to find confirmation, just seems how it is described to me.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

The thing that I have been curious about with this concept is the possibility of a feruchemist storing all of their identity and then "leeching" their metalminds.  

If you store identity does it allow you access to other peoples metal minds?   Then if you had a steel mind on and they have a steel mind you could tap the other persons speed while storing as much as you tap into your own? 

I guess if you could tap their metalminds and store then that would be stealing their attributes.  Even if you only had an aluminum mind and could touch someone else's metalmind you could tap everything from it all at once and try to drain it just through a massive burst of usage. 

 

I also am slightly confused by copperminds.  Wouldnt you have to transfer memories from one to another or risk losing that memory? 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Dunkum]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you store identity does it allow you access to other peoples metal minds?

short answer on this one is no. storing identity removes your own identity, but someone else's metalmind is still keyed to their identity.  your own metalminds you create while storing identity would not be keyed to you, and anyone else can access those though.  to access someone else''s metalmind, you would have to sort of overwrite your spiritual identity with theirs