Some of my Issues with Kaladin through the SA

[Quick Ben]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

the Alethi take pride in their shards. They do not give them easily, and having anyone take them would cause an uproar by every highprince. It is a breaking of tradition that they highly value, and they would wonder how long till he takes their shardblades. 

Valid point, but Dalinar was about to go to the centre of shattered plains to break the parshindi, highprinces had already aligned with him or against him, taking Amarams blade wouldn't of changed that.

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Ialial(or whoever Sadeas wife is) knew that Dalinar was in some part responsible she just didn’t have evidence and they all decided that the ending of the world was a bigger problem.

Agree the others had larger issues to contend with, but Dalinar as a man of honour as you say, surely should of told him his son killed Sadeas, instead he hides it.

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So do you think that the Dalinar today is the same as the Dalinar right after the Nightwatcher

No, because he has his memories back.

But the Dalinar we first meet, is the same as the one we see after cultivation prunes him. Because im pretty sure Cultivation makes him the man Evi thought he could be

[Bejarden]

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

No, because he has his memories back.

But the Dalinar we first meet, is the same as the one we see after cultivation prunes him. Because im pretty sure Cultivation makes him the man Evi thought he could be

Let me rephrase:

Do you think Dalinar in WoK the most honorable lighteye in Alethkar per somebody is the same person when the Nightwatcher takes his memory 

If you read the Nightwatcher scene it is obviously not what happens in my opinion

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Agree the others had larger issues to contend with, but Dalinar as a man of honour as you say, surely should of told him his son killed Sadeas, instead he hides it.

He only finds out at the end of OB after that it woudnt be honorable to destroy his sons life to defend a princedom that rebelled.

 

7 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Valid point, but Dalinar was about to go to the centre of shattered plains to break the parshindi, highprinces had already aligned with him or against him, taking Amarams blade wouldn't of changed that.

It would, they would openly declare war which they would never have done otherwise (from Dalinar point of view)

[Quick Ben]

18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Let me rephrase:

Do you think Dalinar in WoK the most honorable lighteye in Alethkar per somebody is the same person when the Nightwatcher takes his memory 

If you read the Nightwatcher scene it is obviously not what happens in my opinion

As i mentioned earlier, being on honourahle lighteyes isn't hard, because the rest aren't remotely honourable, given Amaram eventually succeeds to that title that alone proves that.

As for Dalinar, after cultivation prunes him, he is the same person as we meet in WoK - Yes. Albeit with the additional experience of the intervening 6/7 years. And yes the choices he made in those 6/7 years wouldnt of been in no way the same choices had cultivation not intervened.

Because as you say she didnt take his memory, she took away/hid away everything that upto Evi's death made him that way (the despot) and took away everything that made him who he was after Evi's death, (the drunk who didnt wanna fight)

Now i personally think cultivation made Dalinar into the man Evi always said he could be. "By taking away the darkness" I might he wrong.

So there wasnt personal growth on Dalinars part, there was an unmaking. Because simply put if somehow you remove all your negative characteristics and only the good remain then you aren't the same person.

Yes you can say he stopped drinking - his reason for it was taken away

Yes you can say he stopped being a horrible father - his reasons for it/what made him that were taken away

So i don't see personal growth. But an unmaking.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Quick Ben

[Bejarden]

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

As i mentioned earlier, being on honourahle lighteyes isn't hard, because the rest aren't remotely honourable, given Amaram eventually succeeds to that title that alone proves that.

So you don’t think WoK Dalinar is honorable 

The man who gave up a Shard for 2000 bridge men.

I don’t think Dalinar was remotely honorable after cultivation pruned him I think he made those choices and became honorable by his own volition 

Cultivation did not make him honorable 

[Quick Ben]

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So you don’t think WoK Dalinar is honorable 

The man who gave up a Shard for 2000 bridge men.

I don’t think Dalinar was remotely honorable after cultivation pruned him I think he made those choices and became honorable by his own volition 

Cultivation did not make him honorable 

Giving up Oathbringer was honourable, i never said Dalinar was unhonourable, what i said was he is honourable and dishonourable an even amount of the time.

And the Dalinar who leaves cultivation is same Dalinar who we meet in WoK, with the additional life experiences the intervening 6/7 years gave him.

And that life experience, those choices would not of been the same had he never gone to cultivation

So essentially they are same person.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Quick Ben

[Bejarden]

So...since he went to Cultivation he grew into an honorable man?

I don’t think Dalinar WoK is different in a significant way from Dalinar RoW

@Quick Ben

[Quick Ben]

Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

So...since he went to Cultivation he grew into an honorable man?

He didnt grow into an honourahle man, no.

Cultivation took away everything that made him how he was, leaving the "good" parts of Dalinar, who Evi says she sees inside him.

Removing all the negative things about Dalinar left him as the man capable of being honourable.

Without this intervention, that wouldnt of happened. Hence why i say it isnt personal growth but a remaking/unmaking/reforging etc

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t think Dalinar WoK is different in a significant way from Dalinar RoW

@Quick Ben

Exactly, hence why isnt personal growth, was outside influences

[Bejarden]

30 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

He didnt grow into an honourahle man, no.

 

39 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I’m going to have to disagree plain and simple with you here

 

31 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Exactly, hence why isnt personal growth, was outside influences

Same here since it’s built on the premise of the quote above

[AirsickAviar]

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is a culture that would not stand a women in charge. I know they did it with jasnah but that was an exception not the rule. The town needed traditional leadership

I want to reply to the one above this two, but might as well quote the second response as well. First: It wouldn't risk 'destroying the town for petty vengeance'. Where are you getting the idea that by removing Rashone that the entire town would descend into anarchy? Him leaving absolutely no one in charge couldn't even do that, nor would it make their chances any worse when the voidbringers would show up anyway. On account, that they were already in the worst of the leadership positions - aka, under petty Roshone. Sometimes, especially in some disasters, bad leadership is actually worse than NO LEADERSHIP.

But the second point is, Laural was a good leader, and even in the culture who didn't like leadership, even in our own histories of similar cultures, there is almost always a tradition of 'if the power is taken, and no male heir is left, and the line can exist through the direct lineage of a female heir, that line will be chosen', even if it mandates them marrying, or forced to marry someone they don't even like (in the most misogynist of them) to continue that line. As it stands, we already see precedence on what happened when the last land lord died. Laural for a few weeks WAS the ranking light eyes in the town. And surprise, surprise, it didn't fall to total anarchy and killing everyone in sight stealing everything either. And arrangements for a replacement in time was still very possible.

 

 

Also, I realized I didn't respond to the first pages 'but Kaladin still hated Roshone in the next book' points for some reason. I think a couple people tried to respond to me with that. That makes no sense, he still ignored his crimes for dumb reasons, and was actively trying to make sure he didn't get punished for them, even to the point of Roshone dying at Moash's hands in like the first 50 pages of the book. It kind of made little to no sense, and just seemed to be a convenient out for the author to take the onus off of Kaladin for the obvious choice. And made sure he couldn't make the moral choice later too. Now it could just go to the stop Moash and end the suffering plot. Him disliking Roshone after that (and that is about as strong as I will put the phrasing that it seems to use for him, who seems to forget everything he did about Tien before that), changed nothing, nor removed how dumb the excuse was.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

[AirsickAviar]

2 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

So there wasnt personal growth on Dalinars part, there was an unmaking. Because simply put if somehow you remove all your negative characteristics and only the good remain then you aren't the same person.

Yes you can say he stopped drinking - his reason for it was taken away

Yes you can say he stopped being a horrible father - his reasons for it/what made him that were taken away

So i don't see personal growth. But an unmaking.

I have to say, I never sat and thought about Dalinar's motivations much until reading this thread. But these are the core arguments in them that have convinced me. Dalinar was forced to grow via artificial means, and that doesn't necessarily make him a good character, but a new one, created by them. I wouldn't necessarily say this makes him as he is now, a bad character, he is what Cultivation made him. But if one were to judge his life in the context of everything, I would say he is terrible, and it is easy to spot how he was the planned champion of Odium. The only reason he isn't, is because of Cultivation.

That being said, a lot of changes in people IRL, happen due to outside random chance. Things that if they didn't happen, would have left them bad, or outright evil people for a lot longer, even till their death. So it is worth looking at it from that point of view as well. Either way, this has been an interesting read.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I want to reply to the one above this two, but might as well quote the second response as well. First: It wouldn't risk 'destroying the town for petty vengeance'. Where are you getting the idea that by removing Rashone that the entire town would descend into anarchy? Him leaving absolutely no one in charge couldn't even do that, nor would it make their chances any worse when the voidbringers would show up anyway. On account, that they were already in the worst of the leadership positions - aka, under petty Roshone. Sometimes, especially in some disasters, bad leadership is actually worse than NO LEADERSHIP.

So basically the world is ending and everyone has had their homes destroyed and your idea is to come in upend tradition take out the leader of the town and then hightail it out of their 15 minutes later.

It was a much better idea to let Roshone, who organized the town fairly well and was not a bad leader, in charge then add an extra not needed burden of changing leadership 

Kaladin brother died a year ago and it didn’t need to culminate now.

Also no double posting just edit your last post 

[AirsickAviar]

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So basically the world is ending and everyone has had their homes destroyed and your idea is to come in upend tradition take out the leader of the town and then hightail it out of their 15 minutes later.

It was a much better idea to let Roshone, who organized the town fairly well and was not a bad leader, in charge then add an extra not needed burden of changing leadership 

 

Or, the end of the world is coming whether I remove the leader or not. And it wouldn't make much difference if I did. And it would be justice if I did. And if they don't know what to do, maybe as the storming knights radiant, you can give them some useful survival knowledge, with your medical triage, and commander's mind for emergency thinking. I don't know. Given the state of things, I just have a strong feeling, some people just might want to listen.

[Forms of mind]

49 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

Or, the end of the world is coming whether I remove the leader or not. And it wouldn't make much difference if I did. And it would be justice if I did. And if they don't know what to do, maybe as the storming knights radiant, you can give them some useful survival knowledge, with your medical triage, and commander's mind for emergency thinking. I don't know. Given the state of things, I just have a strong feeling, some people just might want to listen.

In oathbringer, Kaladin says he cannot stay. toppling the government without new being there to build is cause for disaster if he stays he must commit much in resources. Justice and punishment are not the same.

[AirsickAviar]

He cannot stay. Fine, but kill, prison, say that he will deal with him later, any number of things. In all situations, the town, will be fine without Roshone, or whatever Kaladin decides.

In all situations, the town still gets taken over by the Fuzed armies. No, the town will not collapse and be any more ill prepared with or without Roshone. And simply leading a town that isn't visibly collapsing into anarchy after a disaster is not in and of itself, a sign of competent leadership, others can play into that.

Edited March 24, 2021 by AirsickAviar

[therunner]

2 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

He cannot stay. Fine, but kill, prison, say that he will deal with him later, any number of things. In all situations, the town, will be fine without Roshone, or whatever Kaladin decides.

That the town would be fine is your assumption, it seems Kal disagrees. Also why is it honorable to kill him for a personal wrong done to Kal, when such course of action might threaten others? How would he imprison him if he is about to leave anyway and most likely the second he leaves Laral frees him again?

2 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

In all situations, the town still gets taken over by the Fuzed armies. No, the town will not collapse and be any more ill prepared with or without Roshone. And simply leading a town that isn't visibly collapsing into anarchy after a disaster is not in and of itself, a sign of competent leadership, others can play into that.

Which Kal does not know. At that point in time they do not know what the Fused are intending do to, and are seemingly pulling a lot of their forces to Kholinar.

I would call his leadership mostly competent because most of the town seems okay with him, in fact the only one who has problems with Roshone is Lirin (and his family by association) which as we learn is because Lirin stole a veritable fortune that should have been Roshones. While Roshone was a bad person in Kholinar, and in Heartstone he is cold and unpleasant man, but by no means unreasonable. Even sending Tien into the army was legally his right and he overstepped no boundaries doing that (I do agree that it was immoral), but he could not have known that a messenger boy will die due to his own decision and decisions of others.

[Quick Ben]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:27 AM, AirsickAviar said:

I have to say, I never sat and thought about Dalinar's motivations much until reading this thread. But these are the core arguments in them that have convinced me. Dalinar was forced to grow via artificial means, and that doesn't necessarily make him a good character, but a new one, created by them. I wouldn't necessarily say this makes him as he is now, a bad character, he is what Cultivation made him. But if one were to judge his life in the context of everything, I would say he is terrible, and it is easy to spot how he was the planned champion of Odium. The only reason he isn't, is because of Cultivation.

That being said, a lot of changes in people IRL, happen due to outside random chance. Things that if they didn't happen, would have left them bad, or outright evil people for a lot longer, even till their death. So it is worth looking at it from that point of view as well. Either way, this has been an interesting read.

 

I actually find it quiet surprising how few people see this in relation to Dalinar, most seem to think Cultivation did very little to him, and his "growth" after that interaction is just Dalinar.

But you are correct in saying, changes in people throughout history has been down to random outside changes.

But just don't see how people rewrite the narrative on Dalinar to tye degree we see here

[Bejarden]

On 3/28/2021 at 8:40 AM, Quick Ben said:

I actually find it quiet surprising how few people see this in relation to Dalinar, most seem to think Cultivation did very little to him, and his "growth" after that interaction is just Dalinar.

This is what it seems to say in the actual book.

[Quick Ben]

Where does it say Cultivation changed very little in Dalinar ? 

You think this because Cultivation says she "pruned Dalinar"

"Pruning is a horticultural and silvicultural practice involving the selective removal of certain parts of a plant, such as branches, buds, or roots. The practice entails targeted removal of diseased, damaged, dead, non-productive, structurally unsound, or otherwise unwanted tissue from crop and landscape plants"

as can see above "pruning" implies large changes, leading to designed growth.

 

[Bejarden]

Where does it say Cultivation changed very much?

...Yes

But she also says “One day you might become his,” (Paraphrased OB) which would imply that she didn’t know what would happen 

 

[Quick Ben]

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Where does it say Cultivation changed very much? 

 

The very nature of Dalinar himself.

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

But she also says “One day you might become his,” (Paraphrased OB) which would imply that she didn’t know what would happen 

 

I think might - still is implied, because if she didnt intervene he 100% would of

[Bejarden]

7 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

The very nature of Dalinar himself.

That is subject to debate

 

7 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

5 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

I think might - still is implied, because if she didnt intervene he 100% would of

Yes he would have but since she intervened he was able to grow 

She pruned him and he grew albeit in the direction she wanted but that doesn’t take away the fact he grew

[Quick Ben]

20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That is subject to debate

 

I don't see how

20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yes he would have but since she intervened he was able to grow 

She pruned him and he grew albeit in the direction she wanted but that doesn’t take away the fact he grew

Grew in a direction he couldn't of by himself, or with any of his characteristics that he was known for. Almost as if he was set on a path and couldnt go another way ? Right ?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Grew in a direction he couldn't of by himself, or with any of his characteristics that he was known for. Almost as if he was set on a path and couldnt go another way ? Right ?

Couldn't go another way?

Every foreseen version of events had him falling to Odium

[Quick Ben]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Couldn't go another way?

Every foreseen version of events had him falling to Odium

Did you see where it said almost ? 

Also please note: nearly every foreseen event Renarin has seen has been wrong, so don't see how can use that as evidence

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

Also please note: nearly every foreseen event Renarin has seen has been wrong, so don't see how can use that as evidence

He had the everstorm down to the day, and call Tefts arival early so that is false, the only thing he got wrong is Dalinar falling, and Odium thought he would fall to.

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Did you see where it said almost ? 

The way you wrote it made it seem that you thought he had no choice