Some of my Issues with Kaladin through the SA

[Quick Ben]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

You seem to think Dalinar had a lot more power than he had, the president can't just arrest Congress, no matter what they do.

I am not american so don't know the distance between the president and congress, but il assume its close from how you phrased the above.

Dalinar and Roshone, weren't close in rank, id go so far as to say Roshone was most likely closer in rank to Kaladin (pre radiance) then Dalinar, so it wouldnt be like he was putting a highprince in prison, just a "merchant" type lighteyes, so unsure why you say Dalinar didn't have the power

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

I am not american so don't know the distance between the president and congress, but il assume its close from how you phrased the above.

Dalinar and Roshone, weren't close in rank, id go so far as to say Roshone was most likely closer in rank to Kaladin (pre radiance) then Dalinar, so it wouldnt be like he was putting a highprince in prison, just a "merchant" type lighteyes, so unsure why you say Dalinar didn't have the power

I was refering to Amaram.

[Bejarden]

13 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Actually, Dalinar could of done it if he wanted, to set an example etc, he chose not to.

31 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The point is that doing that could start a civil war that can destroy Alethkar (there’s an extreme example for you) like Frustration says he doesn’t have the power

 

13 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Does it matter ? No, the honourable thing to do is tell all the highprinces, tell their allies, what happens after happens, point is, you don't get to chose when your honourable and when your not.

Yes he could have told them but why would he destroy his sons life for doing something that the Sadeas had coming to him.

It woudnt change anything it would disrupt his stability which would cause harm.

He isn’t pure Honor he is also a leader who needs to make hard decisions that may not be “honorable”

Its not a black and white term there is grey there 

 

I can’t quote in an edit

but what would you have Dalinar do now that he is ‘artificialy’ good it doesn’t matter how he is good just that he got there eventually and he can’t just go back to being a bad guy 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Quick Ben]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I was refering to Amaram.

Apologies, but same applies really, albeit Amaram would of been closer in rank to Dalinar, doesn't stop him from doing the honourable thing, and making Amaram accountable for what he did, 

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

Apologies, but same applies really, albeit Amaram would of been closer in rank to Dalinar, doesn't stop him from doing the honourable thing, and making Amaram accountable for what he did, 

Amaram became Highprince, and even when he wasn't he was still a vassel to Sadeas, who was. Both time he was outside or Dalinar's influence.

[Bejarden]

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

Apologies, but same applies really, albeit Amaram would of been closer in rank to Dalinar, doesn't stop him from doing the honourable thing, and making Amaram accountable for what he did, 

That’s what he was doing with a trial. 
That was literally the only way to hold him accountable 

He can’t arrest a shard bearer and Definitely not a highprince

[Quick Ben]

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He isn’t pure Honor he is also a leader who needs to make hard decisions that may not be “honorable”

Its not a black and white term there is grey there 

 

I can’t quote in an edit

but what would you have Dalinar do now that he is ‘artificialy’ good it doesn’t matter how he is good just that he got there eventually and he can’t just go back to being a bad guy 

At the beginning of this convo you were saying how honourable Dalinar is, i just pointed out ways in which he isn't, which you now agree with from the above. But when/if your acting honourable you don't get to pick and choose when you do, your either always honourable or your not.

Dont expect Dalinar to do anything, just find it extremely misleading when people (you earlier) say how Dalinar has grown, when he hasn't. So just pointed that out.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Amaram became Highprince, and even when he wasn't he was still a vassel to Sadeas, who was. Both time he was outside or Dalinar's influence.

As highprince of war both were under his purview, 

8 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That’s what he was doing with a trial. 
That was literally the only way to hold him accountable 

He can’t arrest a shard bearer and Definitely not a highprince

Could he of made him break the bond to his blade ? Yes he could of, that is all im saying.

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

As highprince of war both were under his purview, 

The only thing Highprince of War would give him is power over war, internal law affairs were none of his buisness.

And on top of that Elhokar was a weak monacrch and each Highprince exersised large degrees of autonomy.

[Quick Ben]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The only thing Highprince of War would give him is power over war, internal law affairs were none of his buisness.

And on top of that Elhokar was a weak monacrch and each Highprince exersised large degrees of autonomy.

They were at war, which makes it a war time decision. Besides everything your saying isn't a reason not to do the honourable thing.

The honourable thing to do, can be on the right or wrong side of law, it being on wrong side of the law doesn't mean it is no longer honourable

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

They were at war, which makes it a war time decision. Besides everything your saying isn't a reason not to do the honourable thing.

The honourable thing to do, can be on the right or wrong side of law, it being on wrong side of the law doesn't mean it is no longer honourable

He couldn't do it though, is the thing.

and Just being at war doesn't give him unlimited power, he controlls the army and stratagy, that's it.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Frustration

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Dalinar has grown, when he hasn't. So just pointed that out.

He has grown tremendously. It was artificially boosted but he still took initiative.

 

6 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

At the beginning of this convo you were saying how honourable Dalinar is, i just pointed out ways in which he isn't, which you now agree with from the above

I was saying he was very very Honorable but nobody is perfect 

You were saying that he’s like 50/50 which isn’t true

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

They were at war, which makes it a war time decision. Besides everything your saying isn't a reason not to do the honourable thing.

The honourable thing to do, can be on the right or wrong side of law, it being on wrong side of the law doesn't mean it is no longer honourable

The facts of the matter are that shard bearer are out of his reach Highprince of Information might have a better claim on that but even that woudnt get you it.

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Besides everything your saying isn't a reason not to do the honourable thing

Just because something is honorable doesn’t make it possible 

[Quick Ben]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He couldn't do it though, is the thing.

and Just being at war doesn't give him unlimited power, he controlls the army and stratagy, that's it.

Ok their at war right ? 

You have a subordinate who killed his own men ya ?

You don't think taking action is within your his purview ?

Seriously ?

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He has grown tremendously. It was artificially boosted but he still took initiative.

When ? What shows this growth ?

6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I was saying he was very very Honorable but nobody is perfect 

You were saying that he’s like 50/50 which isn’t true

Except he isn't and it is true.

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The facts of the matter are that shard bearer are out of his reach Highprince of Information might have a better claim on that but even that woudnt get you it.

Just because something is honorable doesn’t make it possible 

He wouldn't be a shardbearer if he made him break the bond to his blade when he confronted him about stealing "taln's"

And agreed, it doesn't but what isn't possible for Dalinar is alot smaller then for most

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

Ok their at war right ? 

You have a subordinate who killed his own men ya ?

You don't think taking action is within your his purview ?

Seriously ?

Amaram wasn't at war though, at least not for Alethkar.

Nor was it during a time when Dalinar was HIghprince of War.

The most, the ABSOULTE most he could have done, assuming everyone accepted his authority, is stripping his command form him, that's it.

[Quick Ben]

Just now, Frustration said:

Amaram wasn't at war though, at least not for Alethkar.

Nor was it during a time when Dalinar was HIghprince of War.

The most, the ABSOULTE most he could have done, assuming everyone accepted his authority, is stripping his command form him, that's it.

Which would involve taking his Shardblade, just like i said

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Ok their at war right ? 

You have a subordinate who killed his own men ya ?

You don't think taking action is within your his purview ?

Seriously ?

Five years ago this happened old news that has nothing to do with the war

He can’t do anything it a fact if he could have he would have ( that’s the biggest proof he coudnt)

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

When ? What shows this growth ?

14 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He was givin a blank slate after going to Cultivation he could have gone back to being a drunk or he could be better

He chose to be a better man, he then went on to be one of the most honorable men in Alethkar if that’s not growth I don’t know what is

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

He wouldn't be a shardbearer if he made him break the bond to his blade when he confronted him about stealing "taln's"

 

He can’t do this. It is not within his power

Shardbeares have a lot of power. Their among the most powerful in the kingdom (4th danh at the least)

 

Taking away his command would only take his men 

And I think he doesn’t have the jurisdiction to do that.

Highprince of war is a very weak title that Sadeas already ignored

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Frustration]

Just now, Quick Ben said:

Which would involve taking his Shardblade, just like i said

No, it would involve taking his possition in the army, the Shardblade is his and the only person who even theoretically has the power to take it, outside of a duel is the King. And that is a big maybe

[Quick Ben]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Five years ago this happened old news that has nothing to do with the war

He can’t do anything it a fact if he could have he would have ( that’s the biggest proof he coudnt)

I understand its 5 years prior, but my point is simply this, the honourable thing to do would be to make Amaram face repercussions for his actions, to achieve this honourable end, he should of made him break the bond to his shardblade, legality aside, it is the honourable path, and as i said, if choosing honour means breaking the law then so be it, you can't say well i didnt do the honourable thing cos id of crossed that line there so i didnt bother.

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

He was givin a blank slate after going to Cultivation he could have gone back to being a drunk or he could be better

He chose to be a better man, he then went on to be one of the most honorable men in Alethkar if that’s not growth I don’t know what is

No, everything that made him that man was removed, everything he did from that point until his memories came back, is not growth, its being unmade/remade/reforged or anything meaning the same thing, and set him on the path to where he ends up butdoes not count as growth. To say it is growth is just wrong.

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He can’t do this. It is not within his power

Shardbeares have a lot of power. Their among the most powerful in the kingdom (4th danh at the least)

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No, it would involve taking his possition in the army, the Shardblade is his and the only person who even theoretically has the power to take it, outside of a duel is the King. And that is a big maybe

Reference my first point for these two.

If ye disagree then its fine, i am not debating the point for ye to suddenly agree with me, but fact is, saying he couldnt because he didnt have the power, law didnt allow or any other such reason falls to see that doing the honourable thing, has nothing to do with power or the law.

It is quiet simply doing what is right, which yes might have ramifications, but might also avert a whole princedom turning to Odium.(like what happened)

[Bejarden]

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 

I understand its 5 years prior, but my point is simply this, the honourable thing to do would be to make Amaram face repercussions for his actions, to achieve this honourable end, he should of made him break the bond to his shardblade, legality aside, it is the honourable path, and as i said, if choosing honour means breaking the law then so be it, you can't say well i didnt do the honourable thing cos id of crossed that line there so i didnt bother.

18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It’s not that he won’t it’s that he can’t 

And it’s not honorable to just break the law and go after someone no matter the consequences it’s stupid

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

No, everything that made him that man was removed, everything he did from that point until his memories came back, is not growth, its being unmade/remade/reforged or anything meaning the same thing, and set him on the path to where he ends up butdoes not count as growth. To say it is growth is just wrong.

18 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He reforged himself what happens with cultivation allows him to go either way he is nuetral in the conflict (but he still has an addiction

And he grows past that and he grows

What else would it be?

6 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

ye disagree then its fine, i am not debating the point for ye to suddenly agree with me, but fact is, saying he couldnt because he didnt have the power, law didnt allow or any other such reason falls to see that doing the honourable thing, has nothing to do with power or the law.

It is quiet simply doing what is right, which yes might have ramifications, but might also avert a whole princedom turning to Odium.(like what happened)

Well I mean this is a discussion and it’s about getting different view points and I’m fine with it.

At that point the Honorable thing was not to chase him down

It was to deal with a more important problem and deal with Amaram later

And there was absolutely no way that Dalinar could have even slightly known even a little bit that he would turn to Odium 

[Quick Ben]

22 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It’s not that he won’t it’s that he can’t 

And it’s not honorable to just break the law and go after someone no matter the consequences it’s stupid 

The difference in our opinion here, boils down to this: you think Dalinar did all he could with Amaram by saying would be a trial etc, im saying he should of went the extra step, and took his shardblade to ensure that would happen.

Also just a side note the law, is irrelevant to honour, There is many instances in real life where if you follow a code of honour you will find yourself on wrong side of the law, is that stupid ? Not even remotely.

Honour exists independently of law, 

Honour is guided by the moral thing to do, whereas the law is guided by the ethical, which are not the same.

22 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He reforged himself what happens with cultivation allows him to go either way he is nuetral in the conflict (but he still has an addiction

And he grows past that and he grows

What else would it be?

He didn't reforge himself, he was reforged, there is a hig difference.

The Dalinar we first meet is, an honourable fellow, the Dalinar we see in the flashbacks is a despot. What changed ? Culivation. Anything and everything that made Dalinar who he was, was taken away. Everything and anything that could lead Dalinar back to that was taken away. What was left, was what we see first.

You ask what else it could be ? Being unmade,

Amaram is a watered down version of Dalinar, and everyone hates him, if cultivation "pruned" him and he became what he dipicts to everyone he is, a paragon of honour, would you suddenly love him like you do Dalinar? Would you say how honourable Amaram is? Peoples opinion on Dalinar are blinded by fact who he was isn't who we first meet.

22 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Well I mean this is a discussion and it’s about getting different view points and I’m fine with it.

At that point the Honorable thing was not to chase him down

It was to deal with a more important problem and deal with Amaram later

And there was absolutely no way that Dalinar could have even slightly known even a little bit that he would turn to Odium 

He wouldn't of needed to chase him down, he had him in "his power" before they left on expedition to confront the parshindi.

I agree there wasn't, but not choosing the honourable path had just as severe ramifications as the potential civil war you mentioned earlier if he had done the honourable thing (my version)

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Quick Ben

[Bejarden]

19 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

im saying he should of went the extra step, and took his shardblade to ensure that would happen.

 

The main difference of opinion is that this would have been impossible if it was an option he would have done it

 

20 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Honour is guided by the moral thing to do, whereas the law is guided by the ethical, which are not the same.

How is it moral to do something that will very likely start a civil war and if you don’t most likely will end up with Amaram prosecuted.

No offense but you are being extremely short sighted with his honor.

he has a lot more things to consider than one factor.

As I tried to say before no one is completely of Honor (Like Aristotle said an extreme in every form is bad) in comparison to everyone else he is very heavy on the honor side of things.

So the law does take into play here and ramifications 

But that doesn’t make him less honorable ( or at least he is proportionaly more honorable then a lot of people) 

24 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

He didn't reforge himself, he was reforged, there is a hig difference.

He wasn’t reforged he was melted down. He became a blank slate and then and went, through great pain assumingly and reforged himself from the ashes. That took strength and is growth.

 

26 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Being unmade,

What do you mean by this?

 

26 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Amaram is a watered down version of Dalinar, and everyone hates him, if cultivation "pruned" him and he became what he dipicts to everyone he is, a paragon of honour, would you suddenly love him like you do Dalinar? Would you say how honourable Amaram is? Peoples opinion on Dalinar are blinded by fact who he was isn't who we first meet.

We all also hate who Dalinar was before. But we’re looking at the endgame here, where each of them ended up though growth you could say.

whether through Shardic intervention or not an honorable man is an honorable man

29 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

agree there wasn't, but not choosing the honourable path had just as severe ramifications as the potential civil war you mentioned earlier if he had done the honourable thing (my version)

 

Hindsight is 2020 but at that time the most ‘honorable’ thing to do (with all the added factors of timing and law) was to let him walk away

[AirsickAviar]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

That isn't how depression works, it isn't a linear path to "recovery" it's an off and on battle that can span years depending on the individual.

I actually agree with this, and understand it. It is more a criticism of my take on the writing, wearing down the story, not the reality of these sorts of mental health issues themselves. While someone who truly went through some of that sort of stuff in real life, might in fact NEVER be over it to any satisfactory way. But since we need him to get over some stuff in a narrative sense, none of us I think, save for some small subset of readers, will be interested in reading a 20 book scifi fiction on someone's bouts with depression to finally win over it. Some might, but after awhile, it just grated on me. It has nothing to do with whether I think him getting over it was realistic. In fact, I think in this specific case, the book sped it along beyond what I think most real people would do. But over the course of some 4 books, and the same near predictable, but more importantly, frustrating responses, that weighs down the whole thing for me. I suppose I just am not into those sorts of stories.

[AirsickAviar]

8 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

He's on a scouting mission for the largest threat the world has ever seen, he doesn't have the time to drag roshane for trial, and I would disagree that he should do so when removing Roshane would cause confusion.

He wouldn't need to drag Roshone to trial. He needs to make an attempt to start the regulations for such a trial so others might finish it, as it stood most of the kingdom was still assumed to be largely in control of the Alethi at that point. He didn't even make an attempt at the minimal effort to get justice for his brother, which he wanted to do for years, because he just came to an aha moment of him being nothing but a small time bully (who still is the bully responsible for his brothers death).

He already seen enough to understand Laral should be able to run the city, seeing what she already displayed in his current visit. Furthermore he knows enough about the competencies of most in the town... I hardly think he would need to find a lot of time to 'find someone suitable', even if he did detain Roshone on the spot. Which again, I am not even saying was the action he should have taken, but he should have done SOMETHING for it, even if only getting balls rolling, rather than just dismissing the entire thing. And no, punching and forgetting is not something.

[Aspiring Writer]

7 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

He wouldn't need to drag Roshone to trial. He needs to make an attempt to start the regulations for such a trial so others might finish it, as it stood most of the kingdom was still assumed to be largely in control of the Alethi at that point. He didn't even make an attempt at the minimal effort to get justice for his brother, which he wanted to do for years, because he just came to an aha moment of him being nothing but a small time bully (who still is the bully responsible for his brothers death).

He already seen enough to understand Laral should be able to run the city, seeing what she already displayed in his current visit. Furthermore he knows enough about the competencies of most in the town... I hardly think he would need to find a lot of time to 'find someone suitable', even if he did detain Roshone on the spot. Which again, I am not even saying was the action he should have taken, but he should have done SOMETHING for it, even if only getting balls rolling, rather than just dismissing the entire thing. And no, punching and forgetting is not something.

he hasn't broken a law. In case you forgot, Sadeas bascially committed treason and got away with it. Alethi culture is not the same as ours and it would be very difficult for Kadalin to try this when the world is ending. He is on a mission and needs to focus on that mission. It is petty to try this at such a sensitive time. And Kaladin is not likely the kind of person to think about the situation this way. He tried to duel Amaram, not bring him to court. Kaladin is not politically savvy and has a very direct way of thinking, that being, 'hurt the guy I hate'. This is not the Azish, this would not be in his nature.

 

And in regards to the previous post, I was interested in kaladin's journey with depression. It is very relatable, and is also not the only thing going on with the character. I think this is a very you issue.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Bejarden]

Also to add to that 

Roshone was a little justified in what he did 

Lirin did steal the spheres and lie to him and he probably was also a little angry at what happened to his son Roshone has the right to be angry for this for this and he struck the only way he could. While horrible, Lirin did bring it on himself by stealing the spheres and acting so cold toward Roshones son

Also there’s no way Roshone could have known Tein would die, he could have been trying to take tien away for a few years to make ‘lirin sweat’ and when he died he just didn’t care that much because he’s a privileged lighteyes 

[AirsickAviar]

8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

he hasn't broken a law. In case you forgot, Sadeas bascially committed treason and got away with it. Alethi culture is not the same as ours and it would be very difficult for Kadalin to try this when the world is ending. He is on a mission and needs to focus on that mission. It is petty to try this at such a sensitive time. And Kaladin is not likely the kind of person to think about the situation this way. He tried to duel Amaram, not bring him to court. Kaladin is not politically savvy and has a very direct way of thinking, that being, 'hurt the guy I hate'. This is not the Azish, this would not be in his nature.

I agree, most of Kaladin for most of his years would have had the urge to kill him in a direct manner. I am saying Syl's honor dynamic probably would have forced him to try something else. And while Sadeas got away with treason by the letter of the law, Alethi sensibilities were still ruffled in this alethi culture that is not the same as hours, to feel a righteous sense of justice to try and get some sort of revenge for that, from Dalinar, Adolin, even Kalodin there. Roshone broke no law, but what he was seen doing would still have a similar reaction, even from that cultural dynamic.

As for the same mission, if you are right where he absolutely had to do absolutely nothing concrete, it would still have been better for him to say 'I will get justice for my brother, but later'. Instead, it was more 'you are a bully now beneath my notice, and I will never do anything else about it', in internal conversations. This is a very key part of the problem. He doesn't need to actively do anything per se, and I even laid out the groundwork I would have been fine with him FORGIVING Roshone, if it was done well, as I said in a couple posts now. This was not done well.