AirsickAviar

Some of my Issues with Kaladin through the SA

108 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Well, just to start this off, to get it out of the way... I think he is my least favorite protagonist, made up for the fact that I absolutely adore his always present friend, Syl, and wish we had a lot more of her. Anyway, on to Kaladin. 

My thoughts on him and depression, sacrifice, and oaths of protection:


As someone who originally started reading all of Brandon Sanderson's works as an extension of my love for his wonderful work in the end of the Wheel of Time series, I have to say, in a lot of ways, I find Kaladin to be amazingly similar to Rand. From a 'darkness within', suffering from several bouts of what I would simply consider chronic mental health issues, to the need to protect everyone, to even having in the end, having to resolve that through visions from someone in their past that they loved, telling them something along the words of 'let go, we can make this choice ourselves to sacrifice'. Not going to spoil the specifics on where it happened when BS wrote it in for the Memory of Light, but in this spoiler area, one should recognize the vision before Kaladin here before saving his father and getting oath #4.

I just think it was done better with Rand, I didn't really get much out of it here seeing it again. It seems to be a theme with him that makes less sense than in the former. Perhaps we simply don't know much about him, in 'the child of tanavast', and he might be more close to Rand than I think, but still... The best we get is darkness he had as 'melancholy' that his brother drove away, and he had to fight with ever since, as maybe something with chronic depression of a specific disorder? I was trying to narrow down the list of possibilities for mental disorders that it fit, but in the end I just gave up on that as too much effort than I was willing to put into it. It followed him all the way through the chasms and beyond (Syl, you were awesome there, my favorite scene from you, then that sort disappeared from you for a good while after that).

There doesn't seem to be much progress on that, short of a few points along with sworn oaths, and ever back and forth with no real change from him and Syl, to mask the actual need for progress on that phase of his story, until like book 4. It would have served me better I think, if this went faster, and took less time away from interesting other story developments.

 

My thoughts on him, his home village, parents, Roshone, and Moash connections.


I truly get that he didn't want to go talk to his parents about his brother's death. And his guilt from it, it is something I have seen before, understand, and know that some sorts of people might just want to avoid the hurt altogether, and run from it in such ways. But he was interested enough to still go back and try to help him when he realized there might be trouble. So why didn't he send them money when he got rich enough, on what might be two occassions so easily possible? They were in a different sort of need. Ok, I get he might not have thought about it, which is regrettable, but it is still something I take small issue with. You know what in this whole scenario I take big issue with?

He spends years blaming Roshone for the death of his brother. He hates him. He learns to hate Amoran even more. I can even understand why someone would. Though eventually I think he even hates Sadeus even more than Roshone. This makes no sense to me. It gets so bad, that when he finally gets there, he punches Rashon, and leaves it at that. I don't mind the old hero trope of 'learn to forgive, do not take vengeance', but here, that message was executed incredibly sloppily, and unbelievably to me. He was willing to even argue with Syl that punishing Amoran via the legal means would even avoid some of those vengeance of the heart tropes, even if that kind of did blow up spectacularly. And he still wanted a degree of justice after even that.

So then, we are led to believe, that simply because he gets back home, and realizes that Roshone is 'a small town bully', he can be forgiven, simply because he isn't a world ending threat? There is blood on his hands, even if it was out of petty and spite, and there is no serious consequences of 'if we try and remove Roshone from position and do justice in the right legal way, the village and people of the area would fall apart', because they wouldn't. And that is me taking out the the possibility of direct vengeance because of Syl and honor factor. It is dishonorable to not do otherwise, much less practically forget it. And when Laral comes in and lays down the law and tells off on his treatment of Roshone, I about laughed my... Well, off but for all of the wrong reasons in the reading. She doesn't seem to get it either, but somehow she was 'the honorable' woman in that affair, having finally brought repentance to Roshone? If you want to let Roshone get off lightly, then you can do it in a much more believable way, this here, this doesn't make character sense, nor honor sense, nor spren sense. And it makes me look at like 3 different characters in scenes with a complete air of incredulity.

Next part, why did Dalinar just talk Kaladin and his Spren via Kaladin's feelings into thinking letting Elokhar off for his negligent murder of two darkeyes go simply because it was politically expedient for the kingdom at that time to let it go, as 'we have bigger problems', yes, they do, but that isn't the 'honorable' thing to do. Even if you think death shouldn't be on the table, since Elokhar didn't directly do it (which is how I view it, since he was manipulated), he still was the cause, due to negligence, so like manslaughter. Him not pursuing is bad enough, but perhaps forgivable, but why in the long years since, did he never even bring up his PERSONAL involvement, involving the indirect killing of his brother based on actions of Elokhar, to what Dalinar did? This specific issue should be used to shame Dalinar for some sort of recompense, which he NEVER pays for, it is simply forgotten about, similar to the rift (aka, Dalinar's, ah, they killed a darkeyes in envy? Ah, let us put him in charge of more darkeyes and forget about him is a wonderful solution, Dalinar mistake). But Kaladin never does anything to get justice, or honor, in any three of these deaths. And simply ends up ignoring and forgiving, thinking it is all 'small time now'. That might be so, but that 'small time bully' still largely killed his brother, and, well, totally forgiven. Obviously not, but for the stories sake, it might as well be the case. I at least would love to one day see Dalinar's response to knowing what he did here, and it's results. Which he seems to have no concept of by book 4, so we might at least get some self awarded justice, however small, even if Kaladin was too honorless to quest it himself.


In summary

I just think Kaladin is the sum total of a lot of different generic way of the hero tropes, thrown in, and done worse than where they usually work best. With a lot of those similarities to Rand, executed way worse, makes nonsensical moral decisions along the way, with his friends, family, is often irritating with some of those unresolved obstacles for so long, and is less forgivable to me for that. I feel I could probably have written more on this topic, but I felt this was already growing too long, and doesn't need a list of 10 less direct points towards my general issues with Kaladin.


Edited by AirsickAviar
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kaladin lets rashone go because he striving to 3rd ideal. It is not protection to go after for vengance rashone. there still is anger at rashone. 

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Forms of mind said:

kaladin lets rashone go because he striving to 3rd ideal. It is not protection to go after for vengance rashone. there still is anger at rashone. 

I get that. But it still comes back as a refusal to seek justice. The ideal " I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. ", has no extra part where 'I will refuse to right wrongs done by those who have done wrong, simply because I hate them, and have to protect everyone I hate'. Like, out of pettiness had his brother indirectly killed, which is at least a case of manslaughter. No, he simply ignores him because 'he has seen real evil' (quote from the book), and 'Roshone is just a small time bully'. That doesn't even fit in with the oath, or Syl's magic connection to a source of honor from Kaladin's feelings. As for Kaladin's feeling on this matter, his choice is as far as I am considered, seriously out of character. Even if I can accept that maybe Syl, through the nahal bond, and honor bound, would decide not to kill him outright in an act of vengeance. But to simply IGNORE it for some falsely perceived greater value? That is something not only out of character, mind mind boggling to me, the reader. I could even accept Roshone being forgiven outright, if it was set up properly, with the right motivations. These? This doesn't even make sense, and it's dumb. Also, I don't really want to see him forgiven, but it would still be better than this inexplicable decision.

Edited by AirsickAviar
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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, AirsickAviar said:

I get that. But it still comes back as a refusal to seek justice. The ideal " I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. ", has no extra part where 'I will refuse to right wrongs done by those who have done wrong, simply because I hate them, and have to protect everyone I hate'. Like, out of pettiness had his brother indirectly killed, which is at least a case of manslaughter. No, he simply ignores him because 'he has seen real evil' (quote from the book), and 'Roshone is just a small time bully'. That doesn't even fit in with the oath, or Syl's magic connection to a source of honor from Kaladin's feelings. As for Kaladin's feeling on this matter, his choice is as far as I am considered, seriously out of character. Even if I can accept that maybe Syl, through the nahal bond, and honor bound, would decide not to kill him outright in an act of vengeance. But to simply IGNORE it for some falsely perceived greater value? That is something not only out of character, mind mind boggling to me, the reader. I could even accept Roshone being forgiven outright, if it was set up properly, with the right motivations. These? This doesn't even make sense, and it's dumb. Also, I don't really want to see him forgiven, but it would still be better than this inexplicable decision.

This isn't exactly a time when Kaladin can go out to his way to remove Roshane, Roshane ends up being deposed by the Singers anyways, and Kaladin clearly still hates Roshane in RoW. 

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

This isn't exactly a time when Kaladin can go out to his way to remove Roshane, Roshane ends up being deposed by the Singers anyways,

This was exactly the time, he was on a mission to save his family, and they were alive. He had free time, in which at this point, he could do something like that. Since he had free time, he figured what better way to fill that in the mean time than to investigate what the 'voidbringers' were up to after they escaped the local cells. He couldn't just fly back to the tower, but there was no absolutely pressing mission of specific order in the meantime, though his eventual goal was 'back to tower'. Even Dalinar agreed with him doing what he did with the parshmen based partially on a rational that he had nothing better to be doing on his way back. He could have went to secure his parents and brought in Roshone for at least some sort of trial, or at least attempted to start doing this at the stage in time of his being there.

And since this is about him, and his decision making, the fact that the parshmen come in and take out Roshone in a few more days to bail him out of that decision himself is nothing more than an about the point, if anything, it is a god out of the machine to save Kaladin out of his moral dilemma so he doesn't have to.

Edited by AirsickAviar
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6 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

Well, just to start this off, to get it out of the way... I think he is my least favorite protagonist, made up for the fact that I absolutely adore his always present friend, Syl, and wish we had a lot more of her. Anyway, on to Kaladin. 

My thoughts on him and depression, sacrifice, and oaths of protection:


As someone who originally started reading all of Brandon Sanderson's works as an extension of my love for his wonderful work in the end of the Wheel of Time series, I have to say, in a lot of ways, I find Kaladin to be amazingly similar to Rand. From a 'darkness within', suffering from several bouts of what I would simply consider chronic mental health issues, to the need to protect everyone, to even having in the end, having to resolve that through visions from someone in their past that they loved, telling them something along the words of 'let go, we can make this choice ourselves to sacrifice'. Not going to spoil the specifics on where it happened when BS wrote it in for the Memory of Light, but in this spoiler area, one should recognize the vision before Kaladin here before saving his father and getting oath #4.

I just think it was done better with Rand, I didn't really get much out of it here seeing it again. It seems to be a theme with him that makes less sense than in the former. Perhaps we simply don't know much about him, in 'the child of tanavast', and he might be more close to Rand than I think, but still... The best we get is darkness he had as 'melancholy' that his brother drove away, and he had to fight with ever since, as maybe something with chronic depression of a specific disorder? I was trying to narrow down the list of possibilities for mental disorders that it fit, but in the end I just gave up on that as too much effort than I was willing to put into it. It followed him all the way through the chasms and beyond (Syl, you were awesome there, my favorite scene from you, then that sort disappeared from you for a good while after that).

There doesn't seem to be much progress on that, short of a few points along with sworn oaths, and ever back and forth with no real change from him and Syl, to mask the actual need for progress on that phase of his story, until like book 4. It would have served me better I think, if this went faster, and took less time away from interesting other story developments.

 

My thoughts on him, his home village, parents, Roshone, and Moash connections.


I truly get that he didn't want to go talk to his parents about his brother's death. And his guilt from it, it is something I have seen before, understand, and know that some sorts of people might just want to avoid the hurt altogether, and run from it in such ways. But he was interested enough to still go back and try to help him when he realized there might be trouble. So why didn't he send them money when he got rich enough, on what might be two occassions so easily possible? They were in a different sort of need. Ok, I get he might not have thought about it, which is regrettable, but it is still something I take small issue with. You know what in this whole scenario I take big issue with?

He spends years blaming Roshone for the death of his brother. He hates him. He learns to hate Amoran even more. I can even understand why someone would. Though eventually I think he even hates Sadeus even more than Roshone. This makes no sense to me. It gets so bad, that when he finally gets there, he punches Rashon, and leaves it at that. I don't mind the old hero trope of 'learn to forgive, do not take vengeance', but here, that message was executed incredibly sloppily, and unbelievably to me. He was willing to even argue with Syl that punishing Amoran via the legal means would even avoid some of those vengeance of the heart tropes, even if that kind of did blow up spectacularly. And he still wanted a degree of justice after even that.

So then, we are led to believe, that simply because he gets back home, and realizes that Roshone is 'a small town bully', he can be forgiven, simply because he isn't a world ending threat? There is blood on his hands, even if it was out of petty and spite, and there is no serious consequences of 'if we try and remove Roshone from position and do justice in the right legal way, the village and people of the area would fall apart', because they wouldn't. And that is me taking out the the possibility of direct vengeance because of Syl and honor factor. It is dishonorable to not do otherwise, much less practically forget it. And when Laral comes in and lays down the law and tells off on his treatment of Roshone, I about laughed my... Well, off but for all of the wrong reasons in the reading. She doesn't seem to get it either, but somehow she was 'the honorable' woman in that affair, having finally brought repentance to Roshone? If you want to let Roshone get off lightly, then you can do it in a much more believable way, this here, this doesn't make character sense, nor honor sense, nor spren sense. And it makes me look at like 3 different characters in scenes with a complete air of incredulity.

Next part, why did Dalinar just talk Kaladin and his Spren via Kaladin's feelings into thinking letting Elokhar off for his negligent murder of two darkeyes go simply because it was politically expedient for the kingdom at that time to let it go, as 'we have bigger problems', yes, they do, but that isn't the 'honorable' thing to do. Even if you think death shouldn't be on the table, since Elokhar didn't directly do it (which is how I view it, since he was manipulated), he still was the cause, due to negligence, so like manslaughter. Him not pursuing is bad enough, but perhaps forgivable, but why in the long years since, did he never even bring up his PERSONAL involvement, involving the indirect killing of his brother based on actions of Elokhar, to what Dalinar did? This specific issue should be used to shame Dalinar for some sort of recompense, which he NEVER pays for, it is simply forgotten about, similar to the rift (aka, Dalinar's, ah, they killed a darkeyes in envy? Ah, let us put him in charge of more darkeyes and forget about him is a wonderful solution, Dalinar mistake). But Kaladin never does anything to get justice, or honor, in any three of these deaths. And simply ends up ignoring and forgiving, thinking it is all 'small time now'. That might be so, but that 'small time bully' still largely killed his brother, and, well, totally forgiven. Obviously not, but for the stories sake, it might as well be the case. I at least would love to one day see Dalinar's response to knowing what he did here, and it's results. Which he seems to have no concept of by book 4, so we might at least get some self awarded justice, however small, even if Kaladin was too honorless to quest it himself.


In summary

I just think Kaladin is the sum total of a lot of different generic way of the hero tropes, thrown in, and done worse than where they usually work best. With a lot of those similarities to Rand, executed way worse, makes nonsensical moral decisions along the way, with his friends, family, is often irritating with some of those unresolved obstacles for so long, and is less forgivable to me for that. I feel I could probably have written more on this topic, but I felt this was already growing too long, and doesn't need a list of 10 less direct points towards my general issues with Kaladin.


I see where your coming from with this, but i actually think how Kaladin acts stems more from the very narrow definition of Honour in SA, which creates narratively weak reasons for not doing what the actual Honourable thing is. 

Also in SA seems like the Honour and Justice can't overlap or exist in concert which is mystifying, as there are many variations of both, but only one tapered/restricted view of both depicted.

Personally think, Kaldin was honour bound to remove Roshone, Moash was 100% correct to try remove Elhokar, on a Honour level and a Justice level, Kaladin should of been Honour bound to help his friend eliminate Elhokar, 

Quiet frankly Kaldin should of stopped following Dalinar with the revelations in OB, given it is 100% not honourable to follow a despot, (this applies to Szeth as well), while Dalinar was changed from that person that doesn't absolve him. 

 

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I agree completely! 'Honor', in general, is not a good thing to rely on. It's not the equivalent of 'good'. Look at any number of 'honor systems' in the world that come with the unfortunate side-effects of endless blood feuds. 

In general, this is more just a weakness of Sanderson's writing. His characters don't tend to act like people would, and there is largely not a lot of contemplation of factors the actual people dealing with these issues would consider, but rather a focus on... 'the greater evil', more cosmic evils, 'true evil' as that Kaladin quote reads. Of course, all evil is true evil, whether it is a 'small-time' abuser destroying peoples' lives or a mass murderer like Dalinar (and yet these so-called small-time abusers and small-time evils are mostly what all of us encounter in our lives)

Very little of it makes sense to me, but at the time of reading I just sort of swept it under the rug and didn't pay much attention to it save a fleeting annoyance.

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Your missing the point of the SA 

It’s about growth healing and evolving. 

Dalinar was in a unification war and did not do anything illigel, now you will say but he still did a terrible horrible thing,  

Yes he did do a horrible thing but he has spent the rest of his life to make up for what he did , which does make a difference.

It was Roshones right to send Tien to war and lirin did steal the spheres so there is an argument that he was justified in doing this. And Kaladin can’t just fight him for something that happened 5 years ago that meant practically nothing on the world scale for petty vengeance 

Elhokar was young in the first year of his rule and an idiot. But he has been trying to be better. And just because he made a mistake that he regrets doesn’t mean he is not fit to be king. Or at the very least shouldn’t be killed

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9 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

The best we get is darkness he had as 'melancholy' that his brother drove away, and he had to fight with ever since, as maybe something with chronic depression of a specific disorder? I was trying to narrow down the list of possibilities for mental disorders that it fit, but in the end I just gave up on that as too much effort than I was willing to put into it. It followed him all the way through the chasms and beyond (Syl, you were awesome there, my favorite scene from you, then that sort disappeared from you for a good while after that).

 

 

He spends years blaming Roshone for the death of his brother. He hates him. He learns to hate Amoran even more. I can even understand why someone would. Though eventually I think he even hates Sadeus even more than Roshone. This makes no sense to me. It gets so bad, that when he finally gets there, he punches Rashon, and leaves it at that. I don't mind the old hero trope of 'learn to forgive, do not take vengeance', but here, that message was executed incredibly sloppily, and unbelievably to me. He was willing to even argue with Syl that punishing Amoran via the legal means would even avoid some of those vengeance of the heart tropes, even if that kind of did blow up spectacularly. And he still wanted a degree of justice after even that.

So then, we are led to believe, that simply because he gets back home, and realizes that Roshone is 'a small town bully', he can be forgiven, simply because he isn't a world ending threat? There is blood on his hands, even if it was out of petty and spite, and there is no serious consequences of 'if we try and remove Roshone from position and do justice in the right legal way, the village and people of the area would fall apart', because they wouldn't. And that is me taking out the the possibility of direct vengeance because of Syl and honor factor. It is dishonorable to not do otherwise, much less practically forget it. And when Laral comes in and lays down the law and tells off on his treatment of Roshone, I about laughed my... Well, off but for all of the wrong reasons in the reading. She doesn't seem to get it either, but somehow she was 'the honorable' woman in that affair, having finally brought repentance to Roshone? If you want to let Roshone get off lightly, then you can do it in a much more believable way, this here, this doesn't make character sense, nor honor sense, nor spren sense. And it makes me look at like 3 different characters in scenes with a complete air of incredulity.

Next part, why did Dalinar just talk Kaladin and his Spren via Kaladin's feelings into thinking letting Elokhar off for his negligent murder of two darkeyes go simply because it was politically expedient for the kingdom at that time to let it go, as 'we have bigger problems', yes, they do, but that isn't the 'honorable' thing to do. Even if you think death shouldn't be on the table, since Elokhar didn't directly do it (which is how I view it, since he was manipulated), he still was the cause, due to negligence, so like manslaughter. Him not pursuing is bad enough, but perhaps forgivable, but why in the long years since, did he never even bring up his PERSONAL involvement, involving the indirect killing of his brother based on actions of Elokhar, to what Dalinar did? This specific issue should be used to shame Dalinar for some sort of recompense, which he NEVER pays for, it is simply forgotten about, similar to the rift (aka, Dalinar's, ah, they killed a darkeyes in envy? Ah, let us put him in charge of more darkeyes and forget about him is a wonderful solution, Dalinar mistake). But Kaladin never does anything to get justice, or honor, in any three of these deaths. And simply ends up ignoring and forgiving, thinking it is all 'small time now'. That might be so, but that 'small time bully' still largely killed his brother, and, well, totally forgiven. Obviously not, but for the stories sake, it might as well be the case. I at least would love to one day see Dalinar's response to knowing what he did here, and it's results. Which he seems to have no concept of by book 4, so we might at least get some self awarded justice, however small, even if Kaladin was too honorless to quest it himself.

(I quoted only the parts I am trying to directly adress)

So, i will disagree with your reading of some of what you mention, but of course you are entitled to your opinions, values and readings. (I also hope I do not come off as condescending or that I want to attack your opinion, I am still a bit new to online forums)

As far as I know Kaladin should have clinical depression, due to chemical imbalance. (although he also exhibits symptoms of seasonal affective disorder)

I address Roshone down below, but shortly why is it honorable to seek vengeance? Who is Roshone hurting at the moment Kal arrives in village? Yeah, he still treats Kal badly, but he also seemingly stuffed the entire village into his manor to protect them from everstorm. Kaladins oaths call on him to protect people who need it, not met out what he sees as justice, that is Skybreakers understanding of honor. And in my regards, killing Roshone at the point in time he meets him would have nothing to do with neither honor nor justice at all, but just vengeance. Roshone did not kill Tien, just had him conscripted, and as shown in RoW Tien volunteered to go with other messenger boys, if he didn't he would survive the battle.

I also think that you expect Kal to do things that are just not in his nature as a person. He has never shown interest in punishing criminals or people who did wrong in the past (unless they personally betrayed him/wronged him, but even then he never acts on it), he is always striving to actively protect people who are endangered at the moment or who might be (that is why he breakdowns in the battle of Kholinar).

I would also say that at his core, Kaladin just wants to help people and protect them in the positive sense, he does not enjoy killing at all (I would even say that on some level he actively dislikes it). When he was contemplating betraying Elkohar and killing him, he was actively getting worse and worse mentally, so I think that if he did end up giving into that he would end up hating himself.

I do think that both Elkohar and Roshone should have been punished more severely (or at all in Elkohars case, they did both commit manslaughter), however feudal society does not work like that, and Alethi are mostly feudal still (hopefully Jasnah successfully changes that at least a bit). So their society is not just, however breaking your oath is neither honorable nor just if done just for sake of vengeance. Honorable course of action would be for him to renounce his vow to protect Elkohar and then seek ways to get justice, but that would align him more with Skybreaker understanding of honor than that of Windrunners.

 

8 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I get that. But it still comes back as a refusal to seek justice. The ideal " I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. ", has no extra part where 'I will refuse to right wrongs done by those who have done wrong, simply because I hate them, and have to protect everyone I hate'. Like, out of pettiness had his brother indirectly killed, which is at least a case of manslaughter. No, he simply ignores him because 'he has seen real evil' (quote from the book), and 'Roshone is just a small time bully'. That doesn't even fit in with the oath, or Syl's magic connection to a source of honor from Kaladin's feelings. As for Kaladin's feeling on this matter, his choice is as far as I am considered, seriously out of character. Even if I can accept that maybe Syl, through the nahal bond, and honor bound, would decide not to kill him outright in an act of vengeance. But to simply IGNORE it for some falsely perceived greater value? That is something not only out of character, mind mind boggling to me, the reader. I could even accept Roshone being forgiven outright, if it was set up properly, with the right motivations. These? This doesn't even make sense, and it's dumb. Also, I don't really want to see him forgiven, but it would still be better than this inexplicable decision.

3rd ideal also has no caveats about "it being right to kill people who wronged me in the past personally." Righting past wrongs has nothing to do with protecting people either, if Roshone was still actively endangering the village, sure it makes sense to remove him (altough killing him might still be a bridge too far if there were other methods).

Windrunners are most strongly associated with actively protecting/defending, killing Roshone would protect exactly no one at that point, and might actively make things more dagnerous by destabilizing the village (altough it seems that at that point Laral was the true power there).

Justice and righting wrongs is associated with Skybreakers, and there you could make case that Roshone willfully neglected his duties as Lord when pressing Tien into service (as there might have been more suitable people) but you would still have to prove it, personal feelings should not enter the calculation at all.

31 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I agree completely! 'Honor', in general, is not a good thing to rely on. It's not the equivalent of 'good'. Look at any number of 'honor systems' in the world that come with the unfortunate side-effects of endless blood feuds. 

In general, this is more just a weakness of Sanderson's writing. His characters don't tend to act like people would, and there is largely not a lot of contemplation of factors the actual people dealing with these issues would consider, but rather a focus on... 'the greater evil', more cosmic evils, 'true evil' as that Kaladin quote reads. Of course, all evil is true evil, whether it is a 'small-time' abuser destroying peoples' lives or a mass murderer like Dalinar (and yet these so-called small-time abusers and small-time evils are mostly what all of us encounter in our lives)

Very little of it makes sense to me, but at the time of reading I just sort of swept it under the rug and didn't pay much attention to it save a fleeting annoyance.

I do agree that nebulous 'honor' is a bad system, however for both Skybreakers and Windrunners (two orders claiming to be closest to Honor) that reliance on 'honor' is tempered by leaning on law (Skybreakers) and focusing on protecting not hurting people (Windrunners). In fact Kal killing Roshone and calling it honorable or just would be the reading of honor that leads to blood feuds in my estimate, so him not doing that is a good thing.

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1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I agree completely! 'Honor', in general, is not a good thing to rely on. It's not the equivalent of 'good'. Look at any number of 'honor systems' in the world that come with the unfortunate side-effects of endless blood feuds. 

In general, this is more just a weakness of Sanderson's writing. His characters don't tend to act like people would, and there is largely not a lot of contemplation of factors the actual people dealing with these issues would consider, but rather a focus on... 'the greater evil', more cosmic evils, 'true evil' as that Kaladin quote reads. Of course, all evil is true evil, whether it is a 'small-time' abuser destroying peoples' lives or a mass murderer like Dalinar (and yet these so-called small-time abusers and small-time evils are mostly what all of us encounter in our lives)

Very little of it makes sense to me, but at the time of reading I just sort of swept it under the rug and didn't pay much attention to it save a fleeting annoyance.

I think I would disagree with this a bit. I actually, in a way, agree with the OP in that Kaladin is my least fav of the protagonists, but I don't think that's because he's poorly written or written unrealistically, rather, it's just my personal feelings toward his character (I find Shallan and Dalinar and Adolin and Jasnah and yes, Syl, etc. to be more interesting). But I think Sanderson actually does a great job of getting "in Kal's head". When you say "his characters don't tend to act like people would", I don't see it that way. In fact, I think one reason so many people were taken aback by Kal's dad in ROW was precisely this reason. He is *not* focused on the "greater evils" but on the day-to-day decisions that have to be made. He's not making cosmic choices, he's surviving. And that caused a clash (and I was one of the few who actually felt Kal's dad was acting sensibly, even if unkindly, given his situation). But Kal is *not* a regular guy. He's magical and he's cavorting around with other magical people who are bonded to splinters of gods. He is a part of the cosmic fight and can't afford to get dragged down into the minutia. I think this actually makes a lot of sense. 

Why does he avoid what might be seen as a "just" outcome for Roshone? Because it's quite literally unimportant to the broader issues that plague him. He doesn't like this! He wants to be just a regular guy worried about regular things--but big picture, strategic thinking just suits him. And he's the leader of his army whether he likes it or not, and he knows the weight of that responsibility. It's Laral that snaps him out of his pettiness, strangely enough (which is hilarious because she ALWAYS did the realistic thing that a girl/woman in her position would do). He transfers his irritation toward her, he still feels hatred and anger, but he recognizes the futility of it in the bigger scheme of things. He quite literally picks his battles. And I don't think that's unrealistic at all. 

In a war zone, people make a lot of tradeoffs for survival. Memories are short--even the Mink agrees to help Dalinar, after Dalinar's actions result in the death of his whole family. I don't think that's unrealistic at all. 

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There’s a difference between vengeance and justice. Moash killing Elhokar was vigilantism, not true justice, and not very honorable. 

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12 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I just think it was done better with Rand, I didn't really get much out of it here seeing it again. It seems to be a theme with him that makes less sense than in the former. Perhaps we simply don't know much about him, in 'the child of tanavast', and he might be more close to Rand than I think, but still... The best we get is darkness he had as 'melancholy' that his brother drove away, and he had to fight with ever since, as maybe something with chronic depression of a specific disorder? I was trying to narrow down the list of possibilities for mental disorders that it fit, but in the end I just gave up on that as too much effort than I was willing to put into it. It followed him all the way through the chasms and beyond (Syl, you were awesome there, my favorite scene from you, then that sort disappeared from you for a good while after that).

There doesn't seem to be much progress on that, short of a few points along with sworn oaths, and ever back and forth with no real change from him and Syl, to mask the actual need for progress on that phase of his story, until like book 4. It would have served me better I think, if this went faster, and took less time away from interesting other story developments.

That isn't how depression works, it isn't a linear path to "recovery" it's an off and on battle that can span years depending on the individual.

11 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

I get that. But it still comes back as a refusal to seek justice. The ideal " I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. ", has no extra part where 'I will refuse to right wrongs done by those who have done wrong, simply because I hate them, and have to protect everyone I hate'. Like, out of pettiness had his brother indirectly killed, which is at least a case of manslaughter. No, he simply ignores him because 'he has seen real evil' (quote from the book), and 'Roshone is just a small time bully'. That doesn't even fit in with the oath, or Syl's magic connection to a source of honor from Kaladin's feelings. As for Kaladin's feeling on this matter, his choice is as far as I am considered, seriously out of character. Even if I can accept that maybe Syl, through the nahal bond, and honor bound, would decide not to kill him outright in an act of vengeance. But to simply IGNORE it for some falsely perceived greater value? That is something not only out of character, mind mind boggling to me, the reader. I could even accept Roshone being forgiven outright, if it was set up properly, with the right motivations. These? This doesn't even make sense, and it's dumb. Also, I don't really want to see him forgiven, but it would still be better than this inexplicable decision.

Kaladin litteraly started avenging the wrongs Roshaon did, but he stopped, he didn't feel it. I've done similar things, you think you know what you want but when you actually do it, it leaves you dissatisfied.

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9 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

This was exactly the time, he was on a mission to save his family, and they were alive. He had free time, in which at this point, he could do something like that. Since he had free time, he figured what better way to fill that in the mean time than to investigate what the 'voidbringers' were up to after they escaped the local cells. He couldn't just fly back to the tower, but there was no absolutely pressing mission of specific order in the meantime, though his eventual goal was 'back to tower'. Even Dalinar agreed with him doing what he did with the parshmen based partially on a rational that he had nothing better to be doing on his way back. He could have went to secure his parents and brought in Roshone for at least some sort of trial, or at least attempted to start doing this at the stage in time of his being there.

And since this is about him, and his decision making, the fact that the parshmen come in and take out Roshone in a few more days to bail him out of that decision himself is nothing more than an about the point, if anything, it is a god out of the machine to save Kaladin out of his moral dilemma so he doesn't have to.

He's on a scouting mission for the largest threat the world has ever seen, he doesn't have the time to drag roshane for trial, and I would disagree that he should do so when removing Roshane would cause confusion. Someone needs to run the city, and kaladin doesn't have the time to just promote someone there, and he is currently running the place well. Also, Roshane hasn't technically broken a law in what he did to Tien, he used the law to his ends. Big difference with Amaram, who did break the law and tried to cover it up.

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I too have something to add to this deep and insightful conversation.

Spoiler

Kaladin Best Boi fite me

 Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

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3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:



Dalinar was in a unification war and did not do anything illigel, now you will say but he still did a terrible horrible thing,  

Yes he did do a horrible thing but he has spent the rest of his life to make up for what he did , which does make a difference.

How has he spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it ? I must of missed that ?

He only knows about it for a year and did absolutely nothing to make up for it.

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1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

How has he spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it ? I must of missed that ?

He only knows about it for a year and did absolutely nothing to make up for it.

He’s trying to be a good person. An honarable person.

You can’t blame him for not specifically making amends for something he didn’t remember until recently

He made a huge show of apologizing for his actions by wrighting Oathbringer

he could have just as easily said I don’t care but he didn’t,  he promised to be a better man

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26 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He’s trying to be a good person. An honarable person.

You can’t blame him for not specifically making amends for something he didn’t remember until recently

He made a huge show of apologizing for his actions by wrighting Oathbringer

he could have just as easily said I don’t care but he didn’t,  he promised to be a better man

Thats fine but saying he spent the rest of his life making up for something when he didn't is misleading in the extreme, 

Also he has done as many dishonourable things since start of SA as honourable at this point, so unsure where you get hes trying to an honourable person from, when hes honourable about half the time.

Also wouldnt class OB as an apology, dunno where you get that from

Even his 3rd bondsmith oath was more about him going forward then recognising and seeking redemption for his past.

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31 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Thats fine but saying he spent the rest of his life making up for something when he didn't is misleading in the extreme, 

 

I meant as long as we have seen him

32 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Also he has done as many dishonourable things since start of SA as honourable at this point, so unsure where you get hes trying to an honourable person from, when hes honourable about half the time.

 

Like what?

 

32 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Also wouldnt class OB as an apology, dunno where you get that from

It is an apology but not asking for forgiveness because he knows he doesn’t deserve

he is saying he has grown that he resents what he did and he is a better man today

you can read the excerpt from it it is pretty clear

34 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:
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2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I meant as long as we have seen him

He only remembered at end of OB, so given the time skip, and fact we didn't see much of him in RoW, im not sure how you mean.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Like what?

 

Put Roshone where he couldnt cause trouble at heartstone,

Disposed Elhokar

Let a known murderer (Amaram) go free, 

Married his "sister"

Didnt punish his son for murdering a highprince (mayhe even covered it up)

None of those are honourable.

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It is an apology but not asking for forgiveness because he knows he doesn’t deserve

he is saying he has grown that he resents what he did and he is a better man today

you can read the excerpt from it it is pretty clear

Don't see it as an apology.

He hasn't grown even remotely, he was "unmade" or pruned as like to say on this site, that isnt growth, 

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1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

Put Roshone where he couldnt cause trouble at heartstone,

 

This was actually a pretty good idea there was ok way he could kill him or put him in jail so he strip him of all credibility and rank practically 

And he didn’t do anymore harm there

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Disposed Elhokar

He actually worked to the best of his ability to avoid this he coudnt just let a country fall apart so it was he most honorable thing to do

 

3 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Let a known murderer (Amaram) go free, 

 

He was set to stand trial

4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Married his "sister"

Got me there

 

4 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Didnt punish his son for murdering a highprince (mayhe even covered it up)

It would do more harm than good to destabilize the kingdom he’s not a sky

 

5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Don't see it as an apology.

He hasn't grown even remotely, he was "unmade" or pruned as like to say on this site, that isnt growth, 

I just disagree with you here

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28 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This was actually a pretty good idea there was ok way he could kill him or put him in jail so he strip him of all credibility and rank practically 

A good idea would of been to put him in jail, he was in a perfect position to do that

29 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He actually worked to the best of his ability to avoid this he coudnt just let a country fall apart so it was he most honorable thing to do

 

Actually the honourable thing to do would of been to show Elhokar how to lead

30 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He was set to stand trial

Ya stand trial, and was promoted while he waited...

31 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It would do more harm than good to destabilize the kingdom he’s not a sky

Doesn't matter, honour would demand he make his son face the consequences of his actions.

 

33 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I just disagree with you here

Thats fair enough, but i dont see how you can disagree. Growth implies, you see your flaws, accept them, seek redemption, work through them, and come out the other side from q journey of personal growth.

Dalinar did none of the above, what cultivation did "unmade" who he was and where he was going and made him a completly different person. 

That is destination before journey.

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18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

A good idea would of been to put him in jail, he was in a perfect position to do that

53 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You can’t just throw nobles in jail it doesn’t work like that

the repercussions could be worse than the result you would get

18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Doesn't matter, honour would demand he make his son face the consequences of his actions.

How would he prosecute this? 
“ya the army that betrayed us ‘bout a few times yah them my son killed their leader”

Most people would just applaud them

18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Actually the honourable thing to do would of been to show Elhokar how to lead

I’m sure Elhokar was stubborn about this and he also remembered Dalinar as a drunk and a fool from an early age and leadership is a very hard thing to teach

 

18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Ya stand trial, and was promoted while he waited...

53 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Not all things work out, it doesn’t make them not honorable

And Amaram was a shard bearer and would have broken out if he had so there was no other option

18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

but i dont see how you can disagree. Growth implies, you see your flaws, accept them, seek redemption, work through them, and come out the other side from q journey of personal growth.

Dalinar did none of the above, what cultivation did "unmade" who he was and where he was going and made him a completly different person. 

That is destination before journey.

Dalinar was a horrible man before, he was artificially jumped to a good person

There really wasn’t much he could do to make amends as everything happened 10+ years ago and he didn’t need to become a better man once he remembered 

So he apologized (there wasn’t anyone to make amends to unfortunately) and there wasn’t much left for him to do

He cut out part of the journey but it’s far from over

and of course he isn’t perfect no one is

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18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Ya stand trial, and was promoted while he waited...

He didn't promote him, and didn't have the power to stop it so I have no idea what your point is.

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6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You can’t just throw nobles in jail it doesn’t work like that

the repercussions could be worse than the result you would get

Actually, Dalinar could of done it if he wanted, to set an example etc, he chose not to.

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How would he prosecute this? 
“ya the army that betrayed us ‘bout a few times yah them my son killed their leader”

Most people would just applaud them

Does it matter ? No, the honourable thing to do is tell all the highprinces, tell their allies, what happens after happens, point is, you don't get to chose when your honourable and when your not.

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And Amaram was a shard bearer and would have broken out if he had so there was no other option

 

Could of made him break his bond to the blade ? 

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He didn't promote him, and didn't have the power to stop it so I have no idea what your point is.

He had no accountabilty for what he had done, Dalinar didnt pursue the honourable course.

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Dalinar was a horrible man before, he was artificially jumped to a good person

There really wasn’t much he could do to make amends as everything happened 10+ years ago and he didn’t need to become a better man once he remembered 

So he apologized (there wasn’t anyone to make amends to unfortunately) and there wasn’t much left for him to do

He cut out part of the journey but it’s far from over

and of course he isn’t perfect no one is

Least you admit "he was articially jumped to a good person" 

But thats the exact point, he didn't earn anything. And even when was turned into a good man he still is only honourable half the time as iv said.

I get everyone on here loves Dalinar but i don't see why,real world example (kinda) pick any dictator/despot in history, give them amnesia, let them go to argentina for 15/20 years and raise orphans, then the world realise's who they are, do they get a free pass from all there actions ? Do people following a code of honour or code of law, keep following them ? 

 

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Just now, Quick Ben said:

He had no accountabilty for what he had done, Dalinar didnt pursue the honourable course.

You seem to think Dalinar had a lot more power than he had, the president can't just arrest Congress, no matter what they do.

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