El's powers? (SPOILERS)

[Listener]

I'm not sure what the purpose behind those metal inclusions is but they obviously change his power in some way. And maybe Lezian was so afraid because El had had, and perhaps still does, a formidable reputation among the Fused. It'll probably be revealed in the next book.

[LordFlea]

On 22/03/2021 at 1:26 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

His order is never stated.

Kaladin has fought 7 brands of fused and I’m pretty sure he’s never fought “those ones of masks” so he could be that 9th brand which we don’t know what surge that is.

He could be progression I’m not sure if we’ve scene any of those yet although he could be a soulcasting brand.

And a few others we haven’t seen but Kaladins fought

It would likely be Division right? That's a scary thought

[Weltall]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:19 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Brandon may have been confused when he said that it was in an interview so... I don’t know most likely it’s He Who Quiets but maybe... just maybe it’s Voice of lights

Brandon getting confused about what someone is actually asking versus what he (or the questioner) thinks they're asking has happened on occasion. This is extremely unlikely to be one of them, since he offered the very direct statement that El used to be He Who Quiets entirely on his own. If you read the WoB again you'll see that it wasn't in response to a question, it was literally just Chaos and FeatherWriter saying 'so, weird stuff going on there, huh?' and Brandon volunteering that information. There's no reason to think that he somehow confused Moash and Navani in his head when he's the one who brought it up in the first place.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Weltall

[Bejarden]

45 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Brandon getting confused about what someone is actually asking versus what he (or the questioner) thinks they're asking has happened on occasion. This is extremely unlikely to be one of them, since he offered the very direct statement that El used to be He Who Quiets entirely on his own. If you read the WoB again you'll see that it wasn't in response to a question, it was literally just Chaos and FeatherWriter saying 'so, weird stuff going on there, huh?' and Brandon volunteering that information. There's no reason to think that he somehow confused Moash and Navani in his head when he's the one who brought it up in the first place.

Yes I know that (wow I said this awhile ago) 

I just wanted to irrationaly believe it and was grasping at straws 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

On 24/03/2021 at 6:06 PM, Leuthie said:

Magical healing returns your body to a Cognitively conceived/believed state.

Woah woah, you mean The Lopen's Cognitive image had two arms all along?

As for El's metal plates, there's a few possibilities that come to mind, some of which require him using other Shard's magic system. Perhaps that's why he's been denied the Rhythms? Odium wants to keep him at arm's length.

1. They're Hemalurgic spikes. The trouble with this is: who is he spiking? He replaces his carapace soon after being reborn. Surely it would be a prominent thought of Lezian's if this guy required multiple sacrifices of Invested peeps after each rebirth. Spikes also wouldn't look like carapace replacements.
2. They're Feruchemical metalminds. Notice the quote doesn't specify a particular metal. Now, he'd probably lose them after each death, but if he's a Ferring he can just create new ones.
3. They're manifested spren. We see lesser spren become Radiant Shardplate, right? This may be the Fused version of that.
4. They're some other godmetal. Potentially very powerful, but hard to see how he'd repeatedly get enough, or why.
5. They're ralkalest, to protect against Radiant powers and Shardblades. The trouble is that aluminium is terrible as actual armour.
6. They're steel! He's adopting the human habit of encasing oneself in manufactured armour instead of growing it oneself. Note that steel was immune to Ruin's interference, too, so it might be more practical.
7. They're ornamental. He's just as nuts as other Fused. Perhaps they used to be one of the things above but now he's just stuck doing what he did 5,000 years ago.
8. It's a punishment he's compelled (or wants?) to suffer. Similar to being denied the Rhythms.

Most of these have some problems with them. It seems very unlikely that Odium would let him use other Shard's magic.

Edited May 12, 2021 by ElMonoEstupendo

[+Bzhydack]

On 12.05.2021 at 9:35 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Woah woah, you mean The Lopen's Cognitive image had two arms all along?

As for El's metal plates, there's a few possibilities that come to mind, some of which require him using other Shard's magic system. Perhaps that's why he's been denied the Rhythms? Odium wants to keep him at arm's length.

1. They're Hemalurgic spikes. The trouble with this is: who is he spiking? He replaces his carapace soon after being reborn. Surely it would be a prominent thought of Lezian's if this guy required multiple sacrifices of Invested peeps after each rebirth. Spikes also wouldn't look like carapace replacements.
2. They're Feruchemical metalminds. Notice the quote doesn't specify a particular metal. Now, he'd probably lose them after each death, but if he's a Ferring he can just create new ones.
3. They're manifested spren. We see lesser spren become Radiant Shardplate, right? This may be the Fused version of that.
4. They're some other godmetal. Potentially very powerful, but hard to see how he'd repeatedly get enough, or why.
5. They're ralkalest, to protect against Radiant powers and Shardblades. The trouble is that aluminium is terrible as actual armour.
6. They're steel! He's adopting the human habit of encasing oneself in manufactured armour instead of growing it oneself. Note that steel was immune to Ruin's interference, too, so it might be more practical.
7. They're ornamental. He's just as nuts as other Fused. Perhaps they used to be one of the things above but now he's just stuck doing what he did 5,000 years ago.
8. It's a punishment he's compelled (or wants?) to suffer. Similar to being denied the Rhythms.

Most of these have some problems with them. It seems very unlikely that Odium would let him use other Shard's magic.

Its another possibility.

He enchances himself, but not with Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. Singers are in some extend similar to Fabrials, maybe he uses metal to boost his abilities, no matter what those can be.

We still dont know El's Brand. But apearance seems to be similar to Progression or Transformation - both can be usefull for his carapace-piercing practice. And we still dont know WHY he is so important, and why is consider one of the most powerfull and dangerous Fused. But I have a theory about this.

He was a Bondsmith.

El is fascinated with Humans, and also ancient - remembers times when Spren and Singers were allies. But Nahel Bond wasnt developed yet, and when he learn about this new discovered Bond, he automaticly get fascinated. So he studied Bonds many centuries and discoveres something we know, but didnt see yet.

Unmade (other than Yelig-Nar) can be bonded.

And then Last Desolation happens. Heralds won, locked Odium and Fused on Braize. But I think (and books seems to support that) Fused are Locked on Braize only when Heralds are there. So Fused have to be physicly killed, to be sent on Braize, and if they are not - they simply stay on Roshar.

El hid between scattered Singers, and avoided being killed. For 2 thousand years he studied Radiant Powers, and seeks for Ba-Ado-Mishram, the most powerfull Unmade. He deduced (like us) BAM is the most powerfull spren on Roshar after Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling (maybe is even more powerfull than Sibling, we dont know) so Bonded, should give Radiant Bondsmith powers. Or even not deduced, he wants to try Bond her as experiment and happens to be Bondsmith.

We all know BAM was able to provide Singers with Voidlight like Bondsmith Spren. But we know also she wasnt able to do this before. What is intersting, Sibling also wasnt able to provide Towerlight without Bondsmith. They loses this ability. BAM gained it because as larger Splinter of Odium she has the largest Connection to him, and he finaly invested enough to Roshar to become "native". When she bonded El, they get closer to the Spiritual (as it hapens when Radiant swears Oath) and strenghtened Bond not only between themselves, but also between BAM and Roshar.

When El realises his new powers, he started False Desolation. Goal was to turn this intoreal Desolation, by making Perpendicularity and bringing all Fused this way from Braize. But Oathpact was stronger, and El failed with this - he was only able to bring minor Voidspren from Braize, so he can provide Singers with Forms of Power. Threat was large though, and Radiants need to bring all their power to take down Singers.

Melishi - Bondsmith and fabrial expert, had (untested) theory Bondsmith Spren, or Unmade, can be trapped in perfect Gemstone. This wasnt known before. Knowledge about trapping Spren was new at this point. So he organised mission - despite the fact he was warned about unknown consequences of trapping so powerfull Spren. Probably Naze-dauther-Kuzodo was aware of fact trapping Bondsmith Spren have MASSIVE consequences for Roshar as a whole and she was the only Radiant scientist who saw similarities between BAM and Bondsmith Spren.

So Melishi led expedition to trap BAM. But when they arrived, they learn BAM isnt alone - she had a Bond with Singer-Fused-Bondsmith. Melishi is Bonded to Sibling. Radiants and Singers start to fight. Melishi attacks El.

Then Melishi uses his Bondsmith powers to SWAP his Bond with El's Bond, similar to what Ishar wants to do with Dalinar. Ad then he was able to Use this Bond to trap BAM in gemstone.

Voidspren were ripped from Singers, because BAM was only thing what Connects them to Roshar. Also, Connected to Roshar as a Whole, BAM now damages all Roshar Connection to Cognitive Realm. This damages Spren, and turn Singers to Parshmen. This also took El's Rythms away (similar to Sibling).

Melishi cant enjoy the victory tho. El kills him, before he is killed by remaining Radiants and sent to Braize. He is defeated. This is also why Sibling wasnt bonded during Recreance - his Bondsmith was killed.

But even defeated, El learns very important thing.

Spren can be trapped in Gemstone. And Heralds are like him, and like Spren - are cognitive entities. So they can be trapped too.

Remember, trapping Spren in Gemstones wasnt known during last Desolation. Fused dont know about possibility of trapping them, because they would use this against Heralds! They had Raisium, have weapons against Radiants whitch uses the very same technology. They didnt know this when they were sent back to Braize last time, but now they are back and they have this knowledge. They dont learn this in Internet - someone have to go to Braize WITH this knowledge to share with other Fused scientists, like Raboniel. So they can be back prepared.

And this is also why El loses previous Odium's Favor. I (and many here) have theory that Odium is indeed capable of granting Adhesion Surge, but he ont want to. He can manipulate Connection after all (Venli's Regal powers). He FEARS it. The whole thing about admiration of humans is just an excuse, the real reason why El is punished is his Bondsmith episode.

This can also explain why Odium dont free BAM yet. He dont want to deal with another Bondsmith.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Bzhydack

[ElMonoEstupendo]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

He was a Bondsmith.

I started off thinking you were nuts, but this ticks off a lot of open questions. Well done!

I have some talking points:

• Bondsmith spren don't need Bondsmiths to make their Light - the Stormfather was doing it himself for centuries. The Sibling needed someone to find the tone of Honor - I think that required a bond due to the unique difficulties of being a child of two Lights. This doesn't rule out the theory, though - BAM could have had similar difficulties with Odium locked away.
  • Dalinar is certain there'll only be nine Brands of Fused, presumably because the Stormfather told him Odium wouldn't countenance Adhesion as a Surge, or wouldn't split off enough power to form a Bondsmith spren. What happened with BAM, then, I wonder? The Change Dawnshard was around at the time...
• We know the reason for El's punishment (no title, no Rhythms) from the Fused himself, in his Musings addressed to TOdium himself. Both sides know everything about what went down - there's no chance of deception or misrepresenting the matter.
  • It's just occurred to me that for El to have a pattern of replacing carapace, that practice must have been in effect before the Last Desolation.
  • El has special talents that allow him to incorporate the metal inclusions instead of expelling them when he heals. Is that potentially a Bondsmith ability (I dunno, Connecting to the metal or something)?
  • It seems unlikely he could hide that well, considering his rather unique appearance.
  • El used to have the title Vyre (He Who Quiets), and used to have Rhythms - how did he earn these things without using his powers?
• Canonically (in-world and out-), nine of ten Orders of Knight Radiant took part in the Recreance, meaning Melishi as the only Bondsmith would have had to have survived until then (with his bond, presumably). Though that could just be metaphorically true or a misunderstanding.
  • I asked the question a few days ago: is the Sibling a deadeye? Your idea might explain why not. It might also be an explicit link with what happened with the singers and the planet itself and deadeyeing, rather than just parallel effects.

[Bejarden]

2 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Melishi as the only Bondsmith would have had to have survived until then (with his bond, presumably). Though that could just be metaphorically true or a misunderstanding.

I’m pretty sure Melishi ended the bond before the Recreance and that is how the Sibling is not a Deadeye

The Honorspren mentioned it in the hearing if anyone wants to find the quote

[+Bzhydack]

10 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Dalinar is certain there'll only be nine Brands of Fused, presumably because the Stormfather told him Odium wouldn't countenance Adhesion as a Surge, or wouldn't split off enough power to form a Bondsmith spren. What happened with BAM, then, I wonder? The Change Dawnshard was around at the time...

And Dalinar is right and there is no Bondsmith equivalent of Fused.

El wasn't Bondsmith-ish Fused. He was "normal" Fused from one of 9 Brands (probably with Transformation or Progression powers) and Bondsmith because of Nahel Bond. This is main thing in this theory - he was able to start Nahel Bond, Radiant Bond, with Unmade, and become some sort of Voidish Radiant.

15 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

We know the reason for El's punishment (no title, no Rhythms) from the Fused himself, in his Musings addressed to TOdium himself. Both sides know everything about what went down - there's no chance of deception or misrepresenting the matter.

There is - if El wasnt told the real reason of Punishment by Raise, he would know only the "Official" Reason.

17 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

• It's just occurred to me that for El to have a pattern of replacing carapace, that practice must have been in effect before the Last Desolation.
• El has special talents that allow him to incorporate the metal inclusions instead of expelling them when he heals. Is that potentially a Bondsmith ability (I dunno, Connecting to the metal or something)?
• It seems unlikely he could hide that well, considering his rather unique appearance.
• El used to have the title Vyre (He Who Quiets), and used to have Rhythms - how did he earn these things without using his powers?

He was "normal" Fused throuot all Desolations. Have title, Rythms and Reputation all this time. Have also his Fused Powers (Im almost sure he has Progression). In this theory he became Bondsmith many, many years after Last Desolation, and before False Desolation.

If he has also Progression, he can grow his carapace on metal, to conseal it. Or even he could drop his piercings - being alive and in action is worth more than traditions (ok, not for all, but he seems to be practical guy)

Also, worth noting that throuout 2 thousand years Humans wasnt able to fully defeat Singers, or they were in peace with each other, so there were places when humans couldnt reach him.