+Crossen Posted March 21, 2021 Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 First off, this is not another child champion theory. I think we are all looking at the wrong champion and need to consider Dalinar's champion as opposed to Odium's champion, but I will first start with Odium's champion. I agree with the theory that Szeth will be Odium's champion. The fact that this is Szeth's book allows us to get a lot of his backstory, which will most likely be tragic. We also know that he has pains (the sounds of people that he killed being in his head) that he wishes to get rid of. Szeth may want Odium to get rid of his pain. Also, since Taravangian knows Nightblood's power, he would really want Szeth/Nightblood on his side. Now for Dalinar's champion. I haven't seen this suggested before, but maybe I have not looked hard enough. But, I think that Dalinar's champion will be VASHER. Now why Vasher? I know that a lot of work will need to be done in book 5 to really set this up, but I think that it makes sense for Dalinar to have Vasher as his champion. Brandon is currently setting up Vasher as a "retired warrior coming back to fight" trope. What would cause Vasher to come back into the fray to right his wrongs? Vasher may feel responsible for unleashing Nightblood onto the Cosmere and possibly making Odium even more powerful with a new Vessel. We are also being set up with a reuniting between Vivenna and Vasher, good or bad. These will cause him to come back into the fight and he would be an obvious choice as champion since he is a known great swordsman and may know how to defeat Nightblood. We have even seen foreshadowing of this duel with the fact that we have seen Vasher 1v1 duel in both Warbreaker and SA. Now for THAT deathrattle: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ” Now read it again with the idea that Vasher is holding Nightblood after using his "give breath to shock" trick on Szeth to get the upper hand. “I hold the suckling child (Nightblood is very childlike and sucks investiture) in my hands, a knife at his throat (A knife at Szeth's throat. Also note that this is not necessarily referring to the suckling child's throat), and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw (Vasher taking his breath back from Szeth after his trick). ” Since we have foreshadowing confirming that Vasher can use Breath on Roshar, I think that this sequence of events is very likely. This also sets up a lot of possible twists with Vasher using his Divine Breath to reverse the outcome of the duel at will. Also, it could also be that Szeth is Dalinar's champion and Vasher is Odium's champion Thoughts?. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted March 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 I just found this line from Warbreaker describing Nightblood like a child also: Quote Even after all of these years, the sword reacted like a child in may ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 21, 2021 Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 After you kill someone you can’t get the breath back I gotta say it’s pretty weak your twisting the words meanings and pronouns. I mean Vasher doesn’t even have many breaths left he’s using Stormlight to survive. He also doesn’t have Nightblood Although a point in your favor would be that Szeth heard whispers in Shinover that could have been some early Odium meddling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 21, 2021 Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 (edited) I disagree, especially with Szeth, he specifically listened to the screams of the people he killed, he doesn't want his pain to go away, he wants it, feels he deserves it. But THANK YOU, THANK YOU! for not doing another Gavilnor theory. Edited March 21, 2021 by Frustration 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 21, 2021 Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 I just want my poor boy Szeth to be happy again But he does seem to be backsliding and losing much of the progress he made in Oathbringer, so I've been very worried about him being open to Odium too, yeah. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Ben Posted March 21, 2021 Report Share Posted March 21, 2021 I actually like this theory and upvote for original thinking, alot on here quick to knock a theory esp if its goes against a popular one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffles Posted March 22, 2021 Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) Def an interesting theory. I think the themes and esp some of the non-nightblood warbreaker tie-ins hint at, if not this, then something like this. I dont know if nightblood is the child but there are several other spren and sprenoid characters it could be describing such. It could be noted that the epigraph could tenuously describe Jasnah's discovery of Glys as an infant warspren and contemplating whether most of the world would Kill Renarin out of precaution though obviously she can't do that. Edited March 22, 2021 by Waffles 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfphelps Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) On 3/21/2021 at 10:33 AM, Bejardin1250 said: After you kill someone you can’t get the breath back I gotta say it’s pretty weak your twisting the words meanings and pronouns. I mean Vasher doesn’t even have many breaths left he’s using Stormlight to survive. He also doesn’t have Nightblood Although a point in your favor would be that Szeth heard whispers in Shinover that could have been some early Odium meddling Vasher is shown to have life sense and awakens in the spar with Kaladin. We don't know what he's using to power that, but it's possible between the ending of Warbreaker and SA he ended up with many breaths that don't get depleted because he's using Stormlight to "eat" instead. You mentioned he doesn't have Nightblood anymore, but this theory doesn't require that he have it? The whole point is he might be best suited to face Szeth with Nightblood. That said in not sure I'm sold myself, but it's definitely an interesting theory. Edited March 24, 2021 by cfphelps 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 17 minutes ago, cfphelps said: Vasher is shown to have life sense and awakens in the spar with Kaladin. We don't know what he's using to power that, but it's possible between the ending of Warbreaker and SA he ended up with many breaths that don't get depleted because he's using Stormlight to "eat" instead. He could have very few breaths left and you can eat breaths back from Awakenin 18 minutes ago, cfphelps said: That said in not sure I'm sold myself, but it's definitely an interesting theory. Yes definitely a very good theory I might have came out as a bit apprehensive before but I do see it as very possible 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronUluvara Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 Szeth is bound to Dalinar by his Third Oath. Dalinar could just order him not to fight for Odium, or to fight and lose. Pretty dumb of Todium to pick a guy who's oath-bound to the guy he's fighting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 My personal feelings on this is that if Szeth is Odiums champion Dalinar will purposely lose and be killed. But Szeth will have killed Him with Nightblood so Odium won’t have his Dalinar as a Fused ( Dalinar will realize that the only way for Singers and Humans to co-exist is for them both to have a roughly equal amount of land, and winning the duel would give the Singers no land) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 31, 2021 Report Share Posted March 31, 2021 56 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: Dalinar will realize that the only way for Singers and Humans to co-exist is for them both to have a roughly equal amount of land, and winning the duel would give the Singers no land) Jah-Kavad, Iri, ect 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockheart Posted April 1, 2021 Report Share Posted April 1, 2021 I like the idea of a Szeth/Vasher duel, specifically for the fact that Nightblood is aware... would Nightblood remember his "father" and refuse to act? (I seem to remember specific quotes of the sword telling people of the man who created him, but I could be making that up) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 On 21/03/2021 at 3:03 PM, CROSSENuUP said: First off, this is not another child champion theory. Thanks goodness! I was tired of those Quote I think we are all looking at the wrong champion and need to consider Dalinar's champion as opposed to Odium's champion, but I will first start with Odium's champion. I agree with the theory that Szeth will be Odium's champion. The fact that this is Szeth's book allows us to get a lot of his backstory, which will most likely be tragic. We also know that he has pains (the sounds of people that he killed being in his head) that he wishes to get rid of. Szeth may want Odium to get rid of his pain. Also, since Taravangian knows Nightblood's power, he would really want Szeth/Nightblood on his side. Szeth don't care much about the voices and already accepted they were his fault after he realised he was not Truthless, I doubt he would be tricked by Odium. Quote Now for Dalinar's champion. I haven't seen this suggested before, but maybe I have not looked hard enough. But, I think that Dalinar's champion will be VASHER. Now why Vasher? I know that a lot of work will need to be done in book 5 to really set this up, but I think that it makes sense for Dalinar to have Vasher as his champion. Brandon is currently setting up Vasher as a "retired warrior coming back to fight" trope. What would cause Vasher to come back into the fray to right his wrongs? Vasher may feel responsible for unleashing Nightblood onto the Cosmere and possibly making Odium even more powerful with a new Vessel. We are also being set up with a reuniting between Vivenna and Vasher, good or bad. These will cause him to come back into the fight and he would be an obvious choice as champion since he is a known great swordsman and may know how to defeat Nightblood. We have even seen foreshadowing of this duel with the fact that we have seen Vasher 1v1 duel in both Warbreaker and SA. Vasher being Dalinar's champion is definitely a possibility Quote (Vasher taking his breath back from Szeth after his trick) That part is impossible, and I don't just mean because no one has figured out how to get back the breaths they given to other people but because Breaths being able to be used this way would be contrary to everything Endowment stands for. On the other hand the Smoke coming out of Nightblood is corrupted breaths so it could be that On 21/03/2021 at 3:33 PM, Bejardin1250 said: I mean Vasher doesn’t even have many breaths left he’s using Stormlight to survive. We have no idea how many breaths Vasher has, for all we know he could be 11th Heightening On 31/03/2021 at 5:48 PM, CameronUluvara said: Szeth is bound to Dalinar by his Third Oath. Dalinar could just order him not to fight for Odium, or to fight and lose. Pretty dumb of Todium to pick a guy who's oath-bound to the guy he's fighting. Szeth's Highspren all but stated he's 5th Oath would free him from his 3rd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Silver Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Wouldn't Nale be technically the best fighter that Odium has? If Kaladin has been shown to beat the best of the Fused besides El, I would imagine that every Herald is more than a match for a Fused 1v1. Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth, and Kaladin are currently the best team Radiant has to offer. Nothing against Jasnah or Shallan, they just don't have the same sort of combat experience. Kaladin bowed out of the duel. Dalinar said he was going to be the champion. Adolin doesn't have access to stormlight. So very likely it will be Dalinar. Can Dalinar borrow Kaladin's plate? Or maybe form a bond with his old plate and Oathbringer (bringing them to life somehow). Sort of what Kalak does. But even then, it is still a Herald. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Master Silver said: Wouldn't Nale be technically the best fighter that Odium has? If Kaladin has been shown to beat the best of the Fused besides El, I would imagine that every Herald is more than a match for a Fused 1v1. Dalinar, Adolin, Szeth, and Kaladin are currently the best team Radiant has to offer. Nothing against Jasnah or Shallan, they just don't have the same sort of combat experience. Kaladin bowed out of the duel. Dalinar said he was going to be the champion. Adolin doesn't have access to stormlight. So very likely it will be Dalinar. Can Dalinar borrow Kaladin's plate? Or maybe form a bond with his old plate and Oathbringer (bringing them to life somehow). Sort of what Kalak does. But even then, it is still a Herald. El might be better Also don't forget Jasnah can soulcast people from the CR Edited April 3, 2021 by mathiau 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Silver Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 15 hours ago, mathiau said: El might be better Also don't forget Jasnah can soulcast people from the CR Yes she can. Nothing against Jasnah or Shallan, I just imagine (if the contest turns out to be a duel and not an eating contest) Odium's champion will be decked out in plate. Remember how tough Eshoni was in Words of Radiance. And she was only a regal with 5-7 years of combat experience. The surge of transformation wouldn't work on plate or anything carrying enough stormlight (I think) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge-Four Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 On 3/21/2021 at 7:33 PM, CROSSENuUP said: I agree with the theory that Szeth will be Odium's champion. I really don't understand how this would happen, Szeth's ideal in OB was to follow Dalinar, if he becomes Todium's champion then it would simply mean that Szeth violated his oaths and thus, he would lose his Radience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Listener Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) On 3/21/2021 at 8:03 PM, CROSSENuUP said: I agree with the theory that Szeth will be Odium's champion. Szeth doesn't seem that unhinged to me yet and he seems pretty opposed to Odium. Also, he's likely to get his last Ideal near the end of the book and people are theorizing the contest will happen near the middle. Until he achieves the 5th Ideal, he still has to obey Dalinar. On 3/21/2021 at 8:03 PM, CROSSENuUP said: Vasher may feel responsible for unleashing Nightblood onto the Cosmere and possibly making Odium even more powerful with a new Vessel. None of them know that its a new Vessel, though that may change by the time the contest comes On 3/21/2021 at 8:03 PM, CROSSENuUP said: Since we have foreshadowing confirming that Vasher can use Breath on Roshar, I think that this sequence of events is very likely. This also sets up a lot of possible twists with Vasher using his Divine Breath to reverse the outcome of the duel at will. Also, it could also be that Szeth is Dalinar's champion and Vasher is Odium's champion. Most importantly, Brandon has always said that you dont need to read all his books to enjoy them individually. While RoW was stretching that, he admitted he did it to give the whole thing an air of mysticism for those who hasn't read his earlier works. But using Breath in a battle would require a lot of explaining and it would require either giving a very important chunk of the book to someone who has had just one interlude or describing the contest from the view of a bystander, which would be far more confusing. Edited April 5, 2021 by Listener 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Listener Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 6 hours ago, Bridge-Four said: I really don't understand how this would happen, Szeth's ideal in OB was to follow Dalinar, if he becomes Todium's champion then it would simply mean that Szeth violated his oaths and thus, he would lose his Radience. This is not an argument for 'Szeth will be Odium's champion', but he wouldn't necessarily lose his Radiance in doing so. If he achieved the 5th Ideal then he wouldn't have to follow the 3rd anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Listener said: Dalinar says that he will be his own champion. None of them know that its a new Vessel, though that may change by the time the contest comes Most importantly, Brandon has always said that you dont need to read all his books to enjoy them individually. While RoW was stretching that, he admitted he did it to give the whole thing an air of mysticism for those who hasn't read his earlier works. But using Breath in a battle would require a lot of explaining and it would require either giving a very important chunk of the book to someone who has had just one interlude or describing the contest from the view of a bystander, which would be far more confusing. No double posting simply edit your last post We’re talking about Odiums Champion not Dalinar. Also I don’t believe that Dalinar will be his own Champion because we’re all expecting it What was done to Hoid can be noticed so that might help them figure it out He also said I believe that as the books progress it will become more and more cross-overy Edited April 5, 2021 by Bejardin1250 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Listener Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: No double posting simply edit your last post We’re talking about Odiums Champion not Dalinar. Also I don’t believe that Dalinar will be his own Champion because we’re all expecting it What was done to Hoid can be noticed so that might help them figure it out He also said I believe that as the books progress it will become more and more cross-overy I tried to edit my last post but I couldn't add a quote to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 On 4/2/2021 at 1:37 PM, mathiau said: We have no idea how many breaths Vasher has, for all we know he could be 11th Heightening Well... only 200 years ago or so he gave away all his Breaths and we know he’s concerned about the ethics of it ( I think) so I don’t know how he would have that much He also has been on Roshar for a while 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 8 hours ago, Listener said: I tried to edit my last post but I couldn't add a quote to it. The method is to quote the message in the new message box then use copy paste it in the edit box 8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: Well... only 200 years ago or so he gave away all his Breaths and we know he’s concerned about the ethics of it ( I think) so I don’t know how he would have that much He also has been on Roshar for a while 300 but yes, he is probably not much higher than 5th, I'm just saying we have no way to know for sure 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted April 5, 2021 Report Share Posted April 5, 2021 11 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: Well... only 200 years ago or so he gave away all his Breaths and we know he’s concerned about the ethics of it ( I think) so I don’t know how he would have that much 2 hours ago, mathiau said: 300 but yes, he is probably not much higher than 5th, I'm just saying we have no way to know for sure When did he do that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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