Living Shardblades Underutilized?

[AirsickAviar]

Going through my second read through of the current set of books in the SA... And I can't believe I didn't catch it.

If Syl, or presumably any bonded spren can become anything, almost at the whim of the radiant, to whatever is needed or thought of, that alone might have a potential lethality far beyond that of even nightblood. Why not, just imagine a shiny metal surface that is in the perfect shape to be instantly summoned that would be from your hand, to have a piece jutting into the eye slits of 100 shardbearer's around you? I know size limits seem to be largely figurative, but even if there was a limit there in size, toned down, why not something similar to nearly instantly KO anyone you are in a duel with even near you? It would take aiming and having to pretend to work around your opponents defenses much easier. Think multifaceted, and then take away all your opponents potential dodge options by having that spike also there. One could do this with less than the 6' of metal that we got already, but the pure unavoidable lethality radius would be much closer, but still more than possible if you could control you imagination enough, and simply get in range. This would be a far more dangerous attack to use in a huge amount of the close in fighting we have seen in the books. With a full knight radiant, it is almost described as being almost an instant transition, not even waiting for heart beats, with the spren forming to custom shapes near instantly, this could be done so easily to be so very hard to dodge from simply by manipulating the shape to just abstract pointy object that bear no semblance of a normal weapon at all, that would have a point part inside your opponents body's location rn, through any gaps in armor, with it's handle where your hand is already.

Also, this is related, but why not simply summon Syl in a very thin piece of metal that envelops your entire body as a second skin? Sure, you couldn't breathe, see or move that well, but with high control, this could save you a lot of effort in defending for split seconds at a time in crucial spots, especially in times where one might not have sworn the oath for plate, and against other shardbearers...

[Eldergod3]

Conceptual Limitations probably, also these people live in a pre industrial magical society they don’t think the same way we do.

[mathiau]

I think you're imagining a bit too far but yes they're not using Shardblades to their full power

Quote

Questioner

Is there a limit to what the spren can become, like we've seen them become a blade or a spear or a shield, can they become, like-- I've heard hints of a bow and arrow. Can they become a sword and a shield or just one main thing?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, it is more expansive than people guess it is, but it is limited.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

[AirsickAviar]

So they are limited, so it is doubtful that it could ever just think, and boom an army down. While that's helpful to know, I still can't help but see that no matter what arbitrary limitations will be placed on them, be it length, breadth, shape, range, or simply the conceptual skill of the wielder, that shardblades simply for the ability to instantly transform size and shape at all, are practically the ultimate form of close combat weapon around. Dropping any single adversary around you to a degree of proficiency no amount of skill or speed can dodge, not even a teleporter of the style of the Pursuer. Maybe not for killing a shard, like NB, but for everyone killable with a sword, in any fight, yes, 100x more scary when properly realized. Picking the limitations he set up, you could set yourself up a field of dummies and get craftsmen to practice conceptual builds of thin twisted blades around grooves and corners to fit every situation on that field, all the while you practicing, eventually getting so good that you can run through them and at whatever range these effective shapeshifts can be brought by, instantly stab and drop all the dummies at a dead run. No shardplate could properly protect anyone when you get good enough with it.

[i’m in the details]

I suspect shardblade forms are a little like green lantern rings, where the user’s, and maybe the spren’s, creativity is the only limitation within whatever bounds BS has set blades to have. It is a little odd that Kaladin, arguably the best warrior we have a pov for hasn’t tried anything more creative with Syl. And if he’s too straightforward of a warrior we should have seen Jasnah create some abstract-but-combat-efficient weapons. 
 

however Brandon had her pretending to be a normal shard bearer in RoW to not spoil the workings of living plate, he may have also done that to no spoil the more creative uses for blades. 
 

it’s particularly strange because in mistborn vin’s combat efficiency is almost entirely reliant upon her being extremely clever with her allomancy, I’m suprised we havnt seen anyone Vin-ing it with a blade. It’s likely for the same reason Jedi and Sith don’t turn off their blades mid swing in Star Wars: it makes for shorter and maybe less compelling fight scenes.   

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chaos
Sotd2 spoilers

[Parzival]

Well part of the question is also if a shardblade can be summoned inside of someone. I'm fairly certain there is a WoB about how a shardblade can be summoned in air or water because it pushes them out of the way when forming, but it can't be summoned in a solid, only cut them once its been summoned. So one of the limitations could be that you can't summon it inside a person.

Chiberty

What happens if you try to summon a Shardblade, but there is a wall where it would appear? What about liquids in the way, or person, and what if Shardplate is in the way?

Brandon Sanderson

Generally, the Blade isn't going to appear inside of something solid--and will appear (shoving aside) in liquid. It can be hit or miss on people, but generally doesn't work--and Shardplate would stop it from materializing.

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 4, 2020)

Also, does it need to be touching the summoner? cause we have seen a few scenes in which the shardblades drop into their wielders hands, so is it possible to summon say a guilitine blade over the head of an oponent?

Edited March 21, 2021 by Parzival
Found the WoB

[AirsickAviar]

On 3/21/2021 at 1:51 PM, Parzival said:

Generally, the Blade isn't going to appear inside of something solid--and will appear (shoving aside) in liquid. It can be hit or miss on people, but generally doesn't work--and Shardplate would stop it from materializing.

This is what I was looking for. A more practical weakness to the insta-death potential than other limitations I tried to think of that don't slow it down much at all for a close in fight.

This makes it a very interesting fighting style towards the higher end. It would devolve into opponents trying to kill close in with very close to no head movement whatsoever, wearing something like shardplate. Not letting their movement increase to such a degree the can't directly see their forward momentum when they do move or a speed they can't stop close to instantly on. This would give a serious attacker's advantage still to the person experienced with the shapeshifting weapons, and I would imagine it would end up having an art of the one/two/three combo strikes, in which you try to use one form of weapon to push into your opponent one direction, making momentum, and then even as that momentum becomes unavoidable, instantly have spikes through the slits on the other side. Yeah, still terrifying, but at least there is some hope, slim hope. At least it would delay the battlefield momentum a little bit of such a terrible shardbearer. The styles and battles of this sort of thing could be interesting to see on the page though. I still expect between any two shardbearers with plates and blade would still be over very fast though.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chaos
Removed sotd2 spoilers

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

 

Anything about Sequel of the Dusk has to be under tagged spoilers, even even here

[AirsickAviar]

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Anything about Sequel of the Dusk has to be under tagged spoilers, even even here

By the Lord Ruler! I did not think anyone would catch that. Well, it is all spoiled now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Daggon Forescout]

20 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

With a full knight radiant, it is almost described as being almost an instant transition, not even waiting for heart beats, with the spren forming to custom shapes near instantly, this could be done so easily to be so very hard to dodge from simply by manipulating the shape to just abstract pointy object that bear no semblance of a normal weapon at all, that would have a point part inside your opponents body's location rn, through any gaps in armor, with it's handle where your hand is already.

I got the impression that when Ishar "skips" his blade, ie vanishes then resumons his blade to bypass Teft's blade, that's a super advanced technique that most people can't duplicate without extensive practice. That and I think there's some serious perception shenanigans which explain why so far everyone has only ever summoned real world objects. With the exception of Lift and her fork, people only summon real weapons, probably because it is orders of magnitude harder to imagine something new as opposed to asking for "a sword"

[danex]

3 hours ago, AirsickAviar said:

By the Lord Ruler! I did not think anyone would catch that. Well, it is all spoiled now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What? No, you still need to edit the spoiler out of your message, please do that.

11 hours ago, i’m in the details said:

  

You too, no 6th of the Dusk Sequel spoilers here.

 

As for the actual point of this topic, I think that the spren do have to stay a single piece of metal. So that does heavily limit things. No moving parts or anything like that.

As for size limits, we have this WoB

Quote

Questioner

We've seen that the "Sylblade" can change shape to fit Kaladin's needs. Is there a limit on the size of the blade that Syl can become?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay. And can you share with me what the upper limits on those sort of things would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Upper limits of hers are about human-sized.

 

 

[Parzival]

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

Anything about Sequel of the Dusk has to be under tagged spoilers, even even here

 

7 hours ago, Dannex said:

What? No, you still need to edit the spoiler out of your message, please do that.

You too, no 6th of the Dusk Sequel spoilers here.

RoW Lore, Magic, and Cosmere Discussion

Follow 4

Discuss Rhythm of War worldbuilding and cosmere related things here! Cosmere spoilers are permitted.

According to the page title cosmere spoilers are permitted, I don't see what the problem is. What is a tagged spoiler?

[danex]

1 minute ago, Parzival said:

According to the page title cosmere spoilers are permitted, I don't see what the problem is. What is a tagged spoiler?

Something in a spoiler box

Spoiler

Like this

And then outside the spoiler box you need to say what book is being spoiled. Like this:

Sixth of the Dusk Sequel:

Spoiler

Spoilers go here

 

[Bejarden]

that does not include SoDS2

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, Parzival said:

 

RoW Lore, Magic, and Cosmere Discussion

Follow 4

Discuss Rhythm of War worldbuilding and cosmere related things here! Cosmere spoilers are permitted.

According to the page title cosmere spoilers are permitted, I don't see what the problem is. What is a tagged spoiler?

Unpublished is not Cosmere

 

[AirsickAviar]

Did someone miss the joke that was brought up about my username, or am I just confusing the last set of exchanges in this thread?

[Parzival]

On 3/22/2021 at 7:56 AM, Dannex said:

Something in a spoiler box

  Reveal hidden contents

Like this

And then outside the spoiler box you need to say what book is being spoiled. Like this:

Sixth of the Dusk Sequel:

  Reveal hidden contents

Spoilers go here

 

So like this

Spoiler

?

 

[mathiau]

Just now, Parzival said:

So like this

  Reveal hidden contents

?

 

Exactly

[Chaos]

Sotd2 is a special exception and should always be spoiler tagged. Some people will not want far future cosmere spoilers, so please tag those.

I removed a few comments that were not tagged.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chaos

[Valigus]

On 3/21/2021 at 3:48 PM, i’m in the details said:

I suspect shardblade forms are a little like green lantern rings, where the user’s, and maybe the spren’s, creativity is the only limitation within whatever bounds BS has set blades to have. It is a little odd that Kaladin, arguably the best warrior we have a pov for hasn’t tried anything more creative with Syl. And if he’s too straightforward of a warrior we should have seen Jasnah create some abstract-but-combat-efficient weapons. 
 

however Brandon had her pretending to be a normal shard bearer in RoW to not spoil the workings of living plate, he may have also done that to no spoil the more creative uses for blades. 
 

it’s particularly strange because in mistborn vin’s combat efficiency is almost entirely reliant upon her being extremely clever with her allomancy, I’m suprised we havnt seen anyone Vin-ing it with a blade. It’s likely for the same reason Jedi and Sith don’t turn off their blades mid swing in Star Wars: it makes for shorter and maybe less compelling fight scenes.   

The thing with Jedi and sith is an actual lore technique but it’s not done very often because it’s very very dangerous and take a a lot of skill, when it’s done it’s basically the same as what we saw Ishar do.

[Bigmikey357]

Kaladin and Syl were exploring different applications of shape-shifting. Remember she was exploring surgical tools and how she might possibly become something like a scalpel for Kal. They may be something akin to Green Lantern rings but you have to get the spren to understand what you are trying to accomplish,  thus making an extra step. 

Living Blades are underutilized I agree, but that's because they are perfectly suited for the warfare practices on current day Roshar.  Nobody has needed them to do more or thought about ways to make what is essentially a God weapon be anything more. But I suspect that interaction with the greater Cosmere will change things significantly.  Just wait until s Radiant has to combat someone with guns...

[Mage_914]

I'm still convinced that Willshapers and Stonewards could use Cohesion to make the blades more flexible. This would open up a bunch of stuff ranging from razorwire traps to compliant mechanisms.

 

The compliant mechanism thing is huge too because it give your shardblade moving parts without increasing the part count. You could create a working pair of pliers for instance.

 

The razorwire thing also fits with Stormlights more anime style elements. Imagine a bunch of fused rushing a Willshaper in a butler outfit and surrounding him. Suddenly his hand twitches ever so slightly and all the fused heads fall off in slow motion. WE NEED IT!!!!!

[+Oltux72]

58 minutes ago, Mage_914 said:

I'm still convinced that Willshapers and Stonewards could use Cohesion to make the blades more flexible. This would open up a bunch of stuff ranging from razorwire traps to compliant mechanisms.

Why would Cohesion work on Shardblades, although Gravitation does not?

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would Cohesion work on Shardblades, although Gravitation does not?

Gravitation works on your own plate, maybe it works on your own blade too

[ScadrianTank]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Gravitation works on your own plate, maybe it works on your own blade too

From RoW Ch5:

Quote

Syl, flying beside Kaladin, eyed the spear Rock had thrown. Despite the wind rushing in his ears, Kaladin heard her dismissive sniff. Well, she couldn’t be infused with Stormlight. Trying to push it into her was like trying to fill an already brimming cup with more water.