Concerning Adolin and Maya

[Zanarkand]

I know I can't be the only one thinking along these lines and I don't mean to steal anyone's thunder, however I couldn't find a topic on this subject.

Basically I have been reading a lot of theories and speculation about Adolin bonding Maya and becoming a Radiant, however I am utterly convinced this won't happen due to the following reasons:

First off, let's remember that Adolin and Maya are already bonded, and their bond seems to be functionally distinct from the radiant bond (admittedly this could just be due to the deadeye status of Maya though I doubt it.)

Secondly, if she becomes able to again, why would Maya want to bond with a Radiant? She previously participated in an act specifically designed to destroy the old order of Radiants. Why would she now walk that back by helping to create a new Radiant?

Finally, there is Adolin's general character arc. This point is hard for me to articulate, but Adolin just doesn't seem like he is heading in the direction of becoming a Radiant. He is trying to find his place in the world and become his own man, not the man he thinks his father wants him to be. What does he think his father wants him to be? A Knight Radiant.

To be clear, I do think Adolin's arc is leading to Maya being healed (duh?) I also think they will stay bonded in some sense. However, I think their bond will lead them to become something new. What that is I couldn't begin to guess, but I'm excited to find out.

[Aspiring Writer]

47 minutes ago, Zanarkand said:

He is trying to find his place in the world and become his own man, not the man he thinks his father wants him to be. What does he think his father wants him to be? A Knight Radiant.

Just because he wants to be his own person doesn't mean he won't end up following some of his father's expectations. That would follow the same mistaken logic that Adolin will just do the opposite of what his father wants rather than just doing what he wants.

[Zanarkand]

@Aspiring Writer I agree with your logic but from a more meta point of view it seems to me that the author is pointing Adolin in a different direction. Just my opinion though.

[apepi]

Maybe...he will just develop a normal Nahel Bond with Maya and not a Radiant one? We haven't seen that before yet with humans.

Edited March 17, 2021 by apepi

[Quick Ben]

4 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

I know I can't be the only one thinking along these lines and I don't mean to steal anyone's thunder, however I couldn't find a topic on this subject.

Basically I have been reading a lot of theories and speculation about Adolin bonding Maya and becoming a Radiant, however I am utterly convinced this won't happen due to the following reasons:

First off, let's remember that Adolin and Maya are already bonded, and their bond seems to be functionally distinct from the radiant bond (admittedly this could just be due to the deadeye status of Maya though I doubt it.)

Secondly, if she becomes able to again, why would Maya want to bond with a Radiant? She previously participated in an act specifically designed to destroy the old order of Radiants. Why would she now walk that back by helping to create a new Radiant?

Second point is a good one, you would imagine she wouldn't rethread that path, but given how all Kholins are radiants now, it seems it is set up for him to be a radiant just "in a diff way" like Renarin.

4 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

Finally, there is Adolin's general character arc. This point is hard for me to articulate, but Adolin just doesn't seem like he is heading in the direction of becoming a Radiant. He is trying to find his place in the world and become his own man, not the man he thinks his father wants him to be. What does he think his father wants him to be? A Knight Radiant.

To be clear, I do think Adolin's arc is leading to Maya being healed (duh?) I also think they will stay bonded in some sense. However, I think their bond will lead them to become something new. What that is I couldn't begin to guess, but I'm excited to find out.

Disagree with him not becoming radiant just because its what Dalinar wants, 

And when B.A.M is released there won't be anymore deadeyes (my understanding) so won't be Adolin who heals Maya really, whether Adolin bonds Maya after this or they just remain "friends" is up for debate though

[Criggleworth]

This is definitely something I've been pondering. Like most people, I think Adolin will help heal Maya. And I agree with the idea that Adolin won't become a traditional Knight Radiant surgebinder.

However, a thought just occurred to me. The Ars Arcanum in Stormlight notes that there should be something more esoteric than Voidbinding and that Khriss does not think this is the Old Magic. Which has me wondering- maybe there is a third type of "binding" of the surges, one that is more Cultivation focused. In this idea, Surgebinding is primarily of Honor, Voidbinding (which i believe is similar to Surgebinding but with a different expression of each surge) is primary of Odium, and the esoteric surges are primarily of Cultivation. Perhaps called something like Lifebinding.

I'm starting to think that Adolin and Maya will be the first of this new, esoteric category of surge binding- the first "Lifebinder".

Of course, I could be wildly off base. We shall see!

[hskeeter]

1 hour ago, Criggleworth said:

However, a thought just occurred to me. The Ars Arcanum in Stormlight notes that there should be something more esoteric than Voidbinding and that Khriss does not think this is the Old Magic. Which has me wondering- maybe there is a third type of "binding" of the surges, one that is more Cultivation focused. In this idea, Surgebinding is primarily of Honor, Voidbinding (which i believe is similar to Surgebinding but with a different expression of each surge) is primary of Odium, and the esoteric surges are primarily of Cultivation. Perhaps called something like Lifebinding.

I'm starting to think that Adolin and Maya will be the first of this new, esoteric category of surge binding- the first "Lifebinder".

Of course, I could be wildly off base. We shall see!

I like your ideas, but I do believe that Lift has already got this third method.  Lift has made a deal with Cultivation and is the only one we know of so far that uses lifelight which is converted a different way than everyone else so far.  Its organic too, she just has to eat to get investiture.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

38 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

I like your ideas, but I do believe that Lift has already got this third method.  Lift has made a deal with Cultivation and is the only one we know of so far that uses lifelight which is converted a different way than everyone else so far.  Its organic too, she just has to eat to get investiture.

I always thought that Lift was a traditional Edgedancer that simply used Lifelight to fuel her surges instead of Stormlight.  Kind of like how Venli can use Voidlight and Stormlight.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 hours ago, Criggleworth said:

This is definitely something I've been pondering. Like most people, I think Adolin will help heal Maya. And I agree with the idea that Adolin won't become a traditional Knight Radiant surgebinder.

However, a thought just occurred to me. The Ars Arcanum in Stormlight notes that there should be something more esoteric than Voidbinding and that Khriss does not think this is the Old Magic. Which has me wondering- maybe there is a third type of "binding" of the surges, one that is more Cultivation focused. In this idea, Surgebinding is primarily of Honor, Voidbinding (which i believe is similar to Surgebinding but with a different expression of each surge) is primary of Odium, and the esoteric surges are primarily of Cultivation. Perhaps called something like Lifebinding.

I'm starting to think that Adolin and Maya will be the first of this new, esoteric category of surge binding- the first "Lifebinder".

Of course, I could be wildly off base. We shall see!

I'm assuming Maya will return when BAM inevitably gets released, probably in book 5.  Whether or not Adolin becomes a traditional KR is still up in the air imo.  Personally I would love to see Maya killed in some way, sending Adolin down a dark path of violence or something of that sort.  Perhaps Dalinar inadvertently kills her?  

 

Could also see Maya get caught up in whatever Ishar was doing to those Spren at the end of RoW...  That certainly has to be going somewhere.  Whatever avenue Brandon decides to go down, I don't think it's something we'll be able to easily predict.

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, Criggleworth said:

The Ars Arcanum in Stormlight notes that there should be something more esoteric than Voidbinding and that Khriss does not think this is the Old Magic. Which has me wondering- maybe there is a third type of "binding" of the surges, one that is more Cultivation focused. In this idea, Surgebinding is primarily of Honor, Voidbinding (which i believe is similar to Surgebinding but with a different expression of each surge) is primary of Odium, and the esoteric surges are primarily of Cultivation. Perhaps called something like Lifebinding.

I'm starting to think that Adolin and Maya will be the first of this new, esoteric category of surge binding- the first "Lifebinder".

I have a theory about this (which I do realise is a bit ‘out there’). I think that Surgebinding is a joint magic system for both Honor and Cultivation. That’s why Adhesion and Regrowth were the only Surges to still work when the Fused were using the suppression fabrial in Urithiru - Adhesion is purely of Honor, and Regrowth is purely of Cultivation. The other Surges are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, which made them more vulnerable to suppression.

Then the weird new stuff going on with Renarin is adding Odium’s power into the mix, which is why the Surges are expressed differently. That’s the Voidbinging.

[Criggleworth]

1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I always thought that Lift was a traditional Edgedancer that simply used Lifelight to fuel her surges instead of Stormlight.  Kind of like how Venli can use Voidlight and Stormlight.

I take Lift to be the same way, fueling traditional surges with Lifelight.

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

I have a theory about this (which I do realise is a bit ‘out there’). I think that Surgebinding is a joint magic system for both Honor and Cultivation. That’s why Adhesion and Regrowth were the only Surges to still work when the Fused were using the suppression fabrial in Urithiru - Adhesion is purely of Honor, and Regrowth is purely of Cultivation. The other Surges are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, which made them more vulnerable to suppression.

Then the weird new stuff going on with Renarin is adding Odium’s power into the mix, which is why the Surges are expressed differently. That’s the Voidbinging.

I agree that Renarin is adding Odium's power in. But, I believe Sanderson has stated that Renarin is not a Voidbinder. I believe he is both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder- one surge from each table.

I have thought about Surgebinding as a mix of Honor and Cultivation, especially since the Radiant spren are clearly mixtures of their investiture. But, it feels like there should be a more "Cultivation-y" surge power, since there is Voidbinding as separate but related to Surgebinding. And then the half and half ones like Renarin overlap between the different systems. 

I don't think the Old Magic or fabrials would fall under the "more esoteric" power than Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum. Even though fabrials clearly can do the surges.

[Zapata]

2 hours ago, hskeeter said:

I like your ideas, but I do believe that Lift has already got this third method.  Lift has made a deal with Cultivation and is the only one we know of so far that uses lifelight which is converted a different way than everyone else so far.  Its organic too, she just has to eat to get investiture.

Quote

PrinceDusty

At the Pixel Project event, you talked about a further extent of Cultivation's magic than just the boon and bane? Are there any people alive at the end of Oathbringer who are influenced by that magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Lift. Well, I guess that's a boon, isn't it? Yes, there are. But nobody on screen that has Cultivation magic, other than boons or curses from the Nightwatcher. Yes, there is such a thing, no, there's no one else on screen. But what Lift does is a hint.

I think this means that full Cultivation magic uses Lifelight in a way that Lift has not yet. If Lift doesn't have it, but she "hints" at it, i feel like there's something else we're missing.

[hskeeter]

1 hour ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I think this means that full Cultivation magic uses Lifelight in a way that Lift has not yet. If Lift doesn't have it, but she "hints" at it, i feel like there's something else we're missing.

We could be waiting for a while then as Lift is intended to be a major player in the back 5 books.   

[Zanarkand]

3 hours ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I think this means that full Cultivation magic uses Lifelight in a way that Lift has not yet. If Lift doesn't have it, but she "hints" at it, i feel like there's something else we're missing.

So surgebinding might be Honor's magic, with a touch of Cultivation mixed in? The surges of the fused might be a corruption or repurposing of Honor's magic by Odium. Odium's distinct magic is voidbinding, and Cultivation has her own distinct magic system. Lifebinding perhaps?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Zanarkand
Spelling

[MGershone]

I've been thinking about this. The reason Lift didn't fall unconscious seems to be her Lifelight. This is logical, because the Sibling is one of the few spren who remain communicative, and they also harness Lifelight (Stormlight also, but that's beside the point). However, the only surge Lift is able to access is Regrowth, just like Kaladin is only able to access Adhesion while the suppression fabrial is active. This makes me think that Regrowth is Cultivation's truest Surge. But Lift still isn't a Cultivation-Surgebinder, because it seems like anyone can access a Radiant bond. However, Odium has the Brands, which are his own special Surgebinders, which implies that the other Shards should have something similar. Basically, I think we'll end up with 4 types of Binding: Radiant, which anyone can theoretically access; Odium, which is the Brands; and Honor and Cultivation, neither of whom we have seen yet.

Side point: If Honor and Cultivation have special Surges, what's Odium's truest Surge?

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Zanarkand said:

So surgebinding might be Honor's magic, with a touch of Cultivation mixed in? The surges of the fused might be a corruption or repurposing of Honor's magic by Odium. Odium's distinct magic is voidbinding, and Cultivation has her own distinct magic system. Lifebinding perhaps?

something like that. We know almost nothing about voidbinding, and even less about lifebinding, unfortunately. It's pretty much pure guesswork at this point.

[hskeeter]

I believe surgebinding is a style/type of magic.  The different Shards might have different surgebinding specific to them as well as some in common.  The "light" is investiture (power/energy) and these seem to be specific to the shard/god.

[Parzival]

18 hours ago, MGershone said:

Side point: If Honor and Cultivation have special Surges, what's Odium's truest Surge?

Well Odium isn't native to Roshar, whereas Honor and Cultivation have been there far longer and have invested themselves in the planet. So I don't think Odium has a truest surge

[Zapata]

3 hours ago, hskeeter said:

I believe surgebinding is a style/type of magic.  The different Shards might have different surgebinding specific to them as well as some in common.  The "light" is investiture (power/energy) and these seem to be specific to the shard/god.

so far, we haven't seen Cultivation-specific surgebinding. Lift uses Lifelight, which does not seem to be used any differently than a regular Edgedancer's Stormlight, and the ways Venli uses Voidlight doesn't seem to surprise Timbre too much. The Fused might be Odium-specific surgebinding, because it seems like their surges are turned inward instead of outward. That could be related to the Dawnsinger stoneshaping and other possible powers, as well. And so far, Voidbinding has been indicated to be somewhat separate from Surgebinding, and there's no reason why a hypothetical Lifebinding would be any different. Basically what im saying is that the Shards have basically the same surgebinding, but also their own separate magics.

[DSCrankshaw]

Didn't humans destroy their original planet with surgebinding? That would suggest that it's more of Odium than Honor. That's why Adhesion is considered not to be a true surge by the Fused, because it wasn't one of the original ones.

That said, in general I like the theory that Adolin's bond with Maya is something different.  In some ways it seems like what Syl was asking Dalinar to make her bond like, as Adolin seems to be able to feel what Maya feels. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by DSCrankshaw

[Frustration]

36 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Didn't humans destroy their original planet with surgebinding? That would suggest that it's more of Odium than Honor. That's why Adhesion is considered not to be a true surge by the Fused, because it wasn't one of the original ones.

How does the cataclysm of Ashyn indicate that it's more Odium than Honor

[DSCrankshaw]

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How does the cataclysm of Ashyn indicate that it's more Odium than Honor

Because humans didn't follow Honor until after they came to Roshar. They brought Surgebinding to Roshar along with Odium. 

As Syl told Kaladin:

Quote

“It’s true, then?” he finally said. “About the parshmen. That this was their land, their world, before we arrived? That … that we were the Voidbringers?”

She nodded. “Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1202). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

And as the Stormfather told Dalinar:

Quote

But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1051). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

And Raboniel recalled that the humans were fleeing from the results of Surgebinding:

Quote

“I wasn’t there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns— but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind.

“She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns. The result of humans Surgebinding without oaths, without checks. Of course, that was before any of us understood the Surges. Before the spren left us for you, before the war started.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (Kindle Locations 17505-17509). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So if humans destroyed their former world with Surgebinding, they didn't get that power from Honor. And apparently the singers didn't have Surgebinding before then. Surgebinding came to Roshar with the humans. Honor added control to Surgebinding, not the power. Now, it's possible it didn't come directly from Odium. There's some hint that Ishar was experimenting with Surgebinding, and that he was a Bondsmith before the Oathpact, according to Syl:

Quote

“Your abilities are what made the original Oathpact,” she said. “And they existed— and were named— long before the Knights Radiant were founded. A Bondsmith Connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created— or at least discovered— the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better. You Connect things, Dalinar. Realms. Ideas. People.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (Kindle Locations 5614-5618). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Because humans didn't follow Honor until after they came to Roshar. They brought Surgebinding to Roshar along with Odium. 

As Syl told Kaladin:

And as the Stormfather told Dalinar:

And Raboniel recalled that the humans were fleeing from the results of Surgebinding:

So if humans destroyed their former world with Surgebinding, they didn't get that power from Honor. And apparently the singers didn't have Surgebinding before then. Surgebinding came to Roshar with the humans. Honor added control to Surgebinding, not the power. Now, it's possible it didn't come directly from Odium. There's some hint that Ishar was experimenting with Surgebinding, and that he was a Bondsmith before the Oathpact, according to Syl:

 

Fused are red meaning they use investiture that Odium stole from another shard

[DSCrankshaw]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fused are red meaning they use investiture that Odium stole from another shard

Does that mean surgebinding belongs to another shard, or does it mean that spren and singers do? I think voidspren were definitely stolen and corrupted. However, I think that, given the evidence I've cited, surgebinding was developed by the humans under Odium's rule. There's just not much evidence it comes from Honor. Eyewitness testimony says otherwise.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, DSCrankshaw said:

Does that mean surgebinding belongs to another shard, or does it mean that spren and singers do? I think voidspren were definitely stolen and corrupted. However, I think that, given the evidence I've cited, surgebinding was developed by the humans under Odium's rule. There's just not much evidence it comes from Honor. Eyewitness testimony says otherwise.

Unless Honor or Cultivation made the fused it would have to be surgebinding.

And on top of that Odium didn't invest in Ashyn so the magic system isn't his.

Honor made the Honorblades and the Spren are of Honor/Cultivation and neither of those are red.