discuss How Adonalsium was shattered and why the 16 shards have their intents

[Parzival]

Alright this is my first theory post and I bet this theory will be somewhat shared by most people and has probably even been posted before, but I haven't found it if it has and I haven't seen any WoBs that directly approve or disoprove of it. So here it goes. My basic theory is that the dawshards were used to shatter Adonalsium, or were at least a fundamental component of the weapon or technique used to shatter it. Brandon has stated that the dawnshards were created post Adonalsium but pre-shattering so I think that they are fundamentally related to Adonalsium and this is how they were able to shatter it. My secondary theory to go along with this is that the intent and commands of the dawnshards influenced the intents and commands of the resulting Shards of Adonalsium. We have seen the Dawnshard of Change in the novella and this could obviously be related to Ruin and Cultivation who both work towards differnt types of change. Also, Preservation could be related to a dawnshard with an intent along the lines of protecting or making things remain the same, and this could be the dawnshard Hoid possesed that has made him unable to harm others or eat meat, becuase he can no longer do things that would harm other living creatures. So thats pretty much it, I'm still new to 17th shard so I'm not sure if I've looked over all the sources I could have, but I just saw this connection and it seemed strong enough to put out their. Below is the WoB that dawnshards were post Adonalsium but pre-shattering.

Gary

I was wondering if Dawnshards were created at the same time that Adonalsium was.

Brandon Sanderson

Dawnshards, I’ll have to RAFO that, mostly because my timeline for all the Yolen stuff, with the Adonalsium stuff, is going to depend on writing Dragonsteel. And right now, I intend those to be post-Adonalsium but pre-Shattering. But I can’t canonize that until I’ve actually written that mythology and lore. Because the original intent of the Dawnshards, when you read Dragonsteel Prime (which we’ll release with the Words of Radiance leatherbound), you will find two Dawnshards in there. And their original intent has changed a great deal as I’ve canonized things and really, really dug into building the cosmere. And you’ll see what my kind of original intent for those was. (Or at least I can talk about it.) And it’s changed since then. The way that they were in that book (and have remained so far) is that they are younger than Adonalsium.

Dragonmount Zoom Call (Dec. 10, 2020)

Edited March 11, 2021 by Parzival
Forgot tag

[apepi]

To me, the shards are just pieces of Adonalsium's soul. Each Intent is like a piece of their personality. No one is truly all Preservation or Ruin, but these are the pieces of that were part of their soul extracted to a single ideal/Intent

 

And there are 4 because there is 4 Dawnshards that ripped those pieces apart? And they each are 4 they each rip out 4, so 4*4 is 16. Though that is just conjecture.

 

I don't think the number of shards is that important, as Brandon seems to have wobbled on the number of them I think?

 

I believe we will learn more about Adonalsium's during the back half in the book eras when we see the... Ire(?) more.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, apepi said:

I believe we will learn more about Adonalsium's during the back half in the book eras when we see the... Ire(?) more.

Dragonsteel will contain more info on that.

[mathiau]

Firstly, welcome to the Shard

1 hour ago, Parzival said:

My basic theory is that the dawshards were used to shatter Adonalsium, or were at least a fundamental component of the weapon or technique used to shatter it.

That's exactly what the Sleeplesses said

Quote

My secondary theory to go along with this is that the intent and commands of the dawnshards influenced the intents and commands of the resulting Shards of Adonalsium

Yes an important amount of people believe that, some even tried to sort which Shard were to which Dawnshard. As you can expect with one Dawnshard confirmed, one half-confirmed, one that might have been hinted at and one about which we have no clue people rarely agree on which Shard is where

[Parzival]

19 minutes ago, apepi said:

To me, the shards are just pieces of Adonalsium's soul. Each Intent is like a piece of their personality. No one is truly all Preservation or Ruin, but these are the pieces of that were part of their soul extracted to a single ideal/Intent

They are pieces of the soul or intent of Adonalsium, but Brandon has said it would have been possible for Adonalsium to have shattered into a different number of shards or 16 differnt shards, so I think the use of dawnshards affected which intents created shards

[Parzival]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Firstly, welcome to the Shard

That's exactly what the Sleeplesses said

Thanks! I've been reading theories on here for a while, but finally decided to make an account a few days ago.

I totally forgot about that! I didn't give Dawnshard the in depth read I should have, gonna have go go reread those parts now!

[Frustration]

@Parzival please don't double post

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Parzival said:

Thanks! I've been reading theories on here for a while, but finally decided to make an account a few days ago.

I totally forgot about that! I didn't give Dawnshard the in depth read I should have, gonna have go go reread those parts now!

Your welcome

But in the future please avoid doing double posts, especially in that case where editing your previous message and quoting me would have pinged me

[Mage_914]

Yeah this was all pretty much confirmed at this point. In the Dawnshard novella it's straight up stated by the sleepless that the four Dawnshards were four godly commands that were used to Shatter Adonalsium. It's also heavily implied that each Dawnshard ripped off four pieces each (4x4=16) as per the mural where Rysn finds and becomes the Dawnshard.

 

We can even speculate on the nature of each Dawnshard. Rysn hears a voice in her mind shouting CHANGE and subsequently becomes the Dawnshard of Change. We also see Kelsier hearing the word SURVIVE and subsequently survives an execution, a battle against an Inquisitor and even actual death. Dalinar hears the word UNITE and subsequently is able to unite the realms, literally creating a perpendicularity with his fists.

As for how we categorize each shard under each dawnshard, thats were it gets more controversial. I think most people at this point feel that they split on Dawnshard lines, but many disagree about where those lines are. I categorize it like this.

CHANGE

Cultivation - Change through growth

Ruin - Change through Destruction

Endowment - Change through transfer

Invention - Change through Creation

 

SURVIVE

Preservation - Survival through stasis

Mercy - Survival through aid

Valor - Survival through courage

Wisdom - Survival through caution

 

UNITY

Honor - Unity through oaths

Devotion - Unity through Love

Dominion - Unity through Law

Unknown Shard

 

INDIVIDUALITY

Autonomy - Individuality through Isolation

Odium - Individuality through Emotion

Ambition - Individuality through accomplishments

Whimsy - Individuality through oddity

 

There's obviously a lot of guesswork in there based off the shard names we already know which is why its kind of controversial. Anyway, good theory. I dig it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Mage_914

[basement_boi]

On 3/11/2021 at 5:37 PM, Mage_914 said:

Yeah this was all pretty much confirmed at this point. In the Dawnshard novella it's straight up stated by the sleepless that the four Dawnshards were four godly commands that were used to Shatter Adonalsium. It's also heavily implied that each Dawnshard ripped off four pieces each (4x4=16) as per the mural where Rysn finds and becomes the Dawnshard.

 

We can even speculate on the nature of each Dawnshard. Rysn hears a voice in her mind shouting CHANGE and subsequently becomes the Dawnshard of Change. We also see Kelsier hearing the word SURVIVE and subsequently survives an execution, a battle against an Inquisitor and even actual death. Dalinar hears the word UNITE and subsequently is able to unite the realms, literally creating a perpendicularity with his fists.

As for how we categorize each shard under each dawnshard, thats were it gets more controversial. I think most people at this point feel that they split on Dawnshard lines, but many disagree about where those lines are. I categorize it like this.

CHANGE

Cultivation - Change through growth

Ruin - Change through Destruction

Endowment - Change through transfer

Invention - Change through Creation

 

SURVIVE

Preservation - Survival through stasis

Mercy - Survival through aid

Valor - Survival through courage

Wisdom - Survival through caution

 

UNITY

Honor - Unity through oaths

Devotion - Unity through Love

Dominion - Unity through Law

Unknown Shard

 

INDIVIDUALITY

Autonomy - Individuality through Isolation

Odium - Individuality through Emotion

Ambition - Individuality through accomplishments

Whimsy - Individuality through oddity

 

There's obviously a lot of guesswork in there based off the shard names we already know which is why its kind of controversial. Anyway, good theory. I dig it.

Wisdom is not confirmed as a Shard. There are two unknown Shards. Also the Dawnshards are Commands essential for the existence of everything. I don’t think Individuality is essential for the existence of everything.

[Mage_914]

2 hours ago, basement_boi said:

Wisdom is not confirmed as a Shard. There are two unknown Shards. Also the Dawnshards are Commands essential for the existence of everything. I don’t think Individuality is essential for the existence of everything.

Wisdom is all but confirmed at this point as per several WoBs. We know its intent just not it's actual name. As for the individuality bit, thats why I said this is one of the more controversial parts to the conversation around Dawnshards. I think perhaps Identity is a better word for what I was trying to say there. Identity is an essential spiritual aspect of the Cosmere and it fits with the pattern that I picked up on.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Mage_914 said:

Wisdom is all but confirmed at this point as per several WoBs. We know its intent just not it's actual name. As for the individuality bit, thats why I said this is one of the more controversial parts to the conversation around Dawnshards. I think perhaps Identity is a better word for what I was trying to say there. Identity is an essential spiritual aspect of the Cosmere and it fits with the pattern that I picked up on.

It really isn't, it is haevely implied, but that was before the four new ones in RoW, invention could be seen as Wisdom and so forth.

[Mage_914]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It really isn't, it is haevely implied, but that was before the four new ones in RoW, invention could be seen as Wisdom and so forth.

Wisdom was stated as being something akin to prudence and as wanting simply to survive. The Shards that were revealed in RoW were Valor, Mercy, Invention and Whimsy. None of those sound like a Shard associated with caution, survival or prudence. Also Wisdom is in hiding. Harmony mentions that he can't contact some Shards because they don't want to be contacted. Kinda sounds like thats our guy.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Mage_914 said:

Wisdom was stated as being something akin to prudence and as wanting simply to survive. The Shards that were revealed in RoW were Valor, Mercy, Invention and Whimsy. None of those sound like a Shard associated with caution, survival or prudence. Also Wisdom is in hiding. Harmony mentions that he can't contact some Shards because they don't want to be contacted. Kinda sounds like thats our guy.

Um, that is actually opposite of what we know.

Spoiler

Paleo (paraphrased)

Is Wisdom a Shard? If so, how bad does it want to survive?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a Shard with a similar intent. The Shard has realized that survival might not be the most desirable/important.

Footnote: Paleo later asked Brandon for clarification on this one because he couldn't quite remember the survival part when he wrote it down. Brandon stressed again what the Shard has realized.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Mage_914 said:

Wisdom was stated as being something akin to prudence and as wanting simply to survive. The Shards that were revealed in RoW were Valor, Mercy, Invention and Whimsy. None of those sound like a Shard associated with caution, survival or prudence. Also Wisdom is in hiding. Harmony mentions that he can't contact some Shards because they don't want to be contacted. Kinda sounds like thats our guy.

The Shard In Hiding was not stated to be akin to Prudence nor to just want to survive, Prudence has been stated to "look awfully like a Shard's name" which doesn't mean anything and The Shard In Hiding's intent was stated to only be tangentially related to their desire to Survive. It's probably not Invention but it can be Invention.
 

Edited March 14, 2021 by mathiau

[apepi]

52 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The Shard In Hiding was not stated to be akin to Prudence nor to just want to survive, Prudence has been stated to "look awfully like a Shard's name" which doesn't mean anything and The Shard In Hiding's intent was stated to only be tangencially related to his desire to Survive. It's probably not Invention but it can be Invention.
 

Do we know if their vessel is a male or?

[mathiau]

42 minutes ago, apepi said:

Do we know if their vessel is a male or?

Absolutely not but in my native language we use masculine, unknown and mixed are the same gender so I sometime slip up

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Absolutely not but in my native language we use masculine, unknown and mixed are the same gender so I sometime slip up

Until a few years ago English was the same, not as a rule but out of practice, so it's not as much of a mistake as you would think.

[+Oltux72]

On 11.3.2021 at 8:23 PM, apepi said:

To me, the shards are just pieces of Adonalsium's soul. Each Intent is like a piece of their personality. No one is truly all Preservation or Ruin, but these are the pieces of that were part of their soul extracted to a single ideal/Intent

How is that possible if they were used to shatter him? Are you saying it was suicide by proxy?

[apepi]

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How is that possible if they were used to shatter him? Are you saying it was suicide by proxy?

I assume the dawnshards were the ones that shattered him.

[Parzival]

20 hours ago, apepi said:

I assume the dawnshards were the ones that shattered him.

Yes the dawnshards are what were used to shatter Adonalsium. 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

On 12/03/2021 at 0:37 AM, Mage_914 said:

Yeah this was all pretty much confirmed at this point. In the Dawnshard novella it's straight up stated by the sleepless that the four Dawnshards were four godly commands that were used to Shatter Adonalsium. It's also heavily implied that each Dawnshard ripped off four pieces each (4x4=16) as per the mural where Rysn finds and becomes the Dawnshard.

 

We can even speculate on the nature of each Dawnshard. Rysn hears a voice in her mind shouting CHANGE and subsequently becomes the Dawnshard of Change. We also see Kelsier hearing the word SURVIVE and subsequently survives an execution, a battle against an Inquisitor and even actual death. Dalinar hears the word UNITE and subsequently is able to unite the realms, literally creating a perpendicularity with his fists.

As for how we categorize each shard under each dawnshard, thats were it gets more controversial. I think most people at this point feel that they split on Dawnshard lines, but many disagree about where those lines are. I categorize it like this.

CHANGE

Cultivation - Change through growth

Ruin - Change through Destruction

Endowment - Change through transfer

Invention - Change through Creation

 

SURVIVE

Preservation - Survival through stasis

Mercy - Survival through aid

Valor - Survival through courage

Wisdom - Survival through caution

 

UNITY

Honor - Unity through oaths

Devotion - Unity through Love

Dominion - Unity through Law

Unknown Shard

 

INDIVIDUALITY

Autonomy - Individuality through Isolation

Odium - Individuality through Emotion

Ambition - Individuality through accomplishments

Whimsy - Individuality through oddity

 

There's obviously a lot of guesswork in there based off the shard names we already know which is why its kind of controversial. Anyway, good theory. I dig it.

I think it's a mistake to take every instance of an ALL CAPS instruction as one of the Divine Commands, simply because SURVIVE and UNITE don't seem like particularly potent weapons you could deploy against God. Also, there's no obvious "things" for Kelsier or Dalinar to have picked up, unlike the confirmed Dawnshard, CHANGE.

Ishar shows the same ability to open a Perpendicularity, so Dalinar's ability to do so is a feature of Bondsmiths rather than a Dawnshard.

All that said, though, I still dig it. The fourth Command in your set could be DIVERGE or something similar.

[wordspren]

On 4/29/2021 at 8:11 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

All that said, though, I still dig it. The fourth Command in your set could be DIVERGE or something similar.

Ooooh, I really like this potential Dawnshard. Or what about IDENTITY? 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

56 minutes ago, wordspren said:

Ooooh, I really like this potential Dawnshard. Or what about IDENTITY? 

The Dawnshards are primordial Commands, they have to be instructions, so IDENTITY doesn't work, nor does UNITY (though UNITE or CONNECT would). Plus, Identity is already an attribute manipulated by the various magics.

They're the four Commands Adonalsium used to create all things, right? They're the fundamental actions that all things do as part of existing. And they were deployed against Adonalsium himself, so they must be tangentially related to bringing down God. Everything changes, so that makes sense - Big A himself changed into the Sixteen.

Does everything unite? And how would that shatter a god into Shards?

I expect one of them will be FEEL or something roughly equivalent. We've seen stones and winds and plants feel in the cosmere, so that seems right.

Everything also sticks to certain rules, even the Shards themselves. Perhaps OBEY? With the other two that would mean you end up with the three Shards that perhaps most closely embody those Commands on Roshar.