Mid-Range Game 49: Lode of Luthadel

[Mat]

Just now, Quintessential said:

So I guess now would be the time to mention that I'm tinfoiling elim-Mistborn!Stink also, but with Archer? XD

...I don't think that helps xD

[Quintessential]

Just now, Illwei said:

Then explain why because that makes no sense :P.

I vote on STINK (for no actual reason, just wanted to see what would happen) and then Archer shortly thereafter found a problem with me where he'd never mentioned one before. Could just be that he hadn't been on, but...

 

[---]

Just now, Quintessential said:

I vote on STINK (for no actual reason, just wanted to see what would happen) and then Archer shortly thereafter found a problem with me where he'd never mentioned one before. Could just be that he hadn't been on, but...

 

Yeah no you're not convincing me here. I'm not saying I believe it, but Mistborn!STINK Most likely = Elim!Quinn, nothing rn on Archer. This feels like you trying to deflect what's going to happen if STINK flips Mistborn

[Quivil]

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

- Taniel votes Whysper (Poke vote)

Naw, that wasn't a poke vote, that was a greeting. You could also call it a vote of confidence (KON-fid-inse), but not one of confidence (kon-FIDE-inse).

[Quintessential]

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

Yeah no you're not convincing me here. I'm not saying I believe it, but Mistborn!STINK Most likely = Elim!Quinn, nothing rn on Archer. This feels like you trying to deflect what's going to happen if STINK flips Mistborn

I wasn't... trying... to convince you... I'm just stating a thought that's been in the back of my mind for a bit. Not even sure what makes you think that I'm elim with Mistborn!STINK? I randomly voted on him. To see what the reaction would be, from him as much as from everyone else. I then found Archer's reaction odd, like he was trying to deflect suspicion from STINK. Therefore, I am tinfoiling (and not very seriously) Archer/STINK e/e-Mistborn. 

This feels... exactly like QF51!Illwei actually XD but since the elims are gonna be acting pretty similar to villagers in this case, I'm gonna just say that's NAI. 

(also, now alternatively tinfoiling Illwei/Archer e/e-Mistborn, but that's just as hazy and obviously they can't both be true so eh)

[---]

Just now, Quintessential said:

(also, now alternatively tinfoiling Illwei/Archer e/e-Mistborn, but that's just as hazy and obviously they can't both be true so eh)

Okay yeah now you're just making no sense

[Quivil]

14 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Wild theory here:

Quinn votes for her Mistborn, STINK, with no reasoning. Archer votes her for barely any reasoning afterwards, so if so, something said in Quinn's posts at least will try to signal to other Elims on her team.

Hey! That's a good idea!

Illwei.

[Mat]

Just now, Quintessential said:

Not even sure what makes you think that I'm elim with Mistborn!STINK? I randomly voted on him.

That's why she thinks you're elim with Mistborn!STINK :P. That and this defense which seems over-the-top to me?

1 minute ago, Quintessential said:

I then found Archer's reaction odd, like he was trying to deflect suspicion from STINK. Therefore, I am tinfoiling (and not very seriously) Archer/STINK e/e-Mistborn.

Deflect what suspicion? Like you said, it was an unprompted and poke vote and therefore had nothing to defend against or deflect away.

2 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

This feels... exactly like QF51!Illwei actually XD but since the elims are gonna be acting pretty similar to villagers in this case, I'm gonna just say that's NAI. 

'This feels like village Illwei but that's NAI because elims try to act like villagers'? :P.

[---]

1 minute ago, Tani said:

Hey! That's a good idea!

Illwei.

Tani/STINK e/e but only if Tani flips first

[|TJ|]

And so it begins

Spoiler

[Quintessential]

8 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Okay yeah now you're just making no sense

Archer Illwei

This is just... idek but like... I can't tell whether it's just an Illwei thing to dismiss everything I say without giving any reason why, or whether it leans more towards v!her or e!her... I know she's done it as both but my gut associates it with e!her more than v!her so here's a vote. Probably will change this eventually, since it's meta + gut and hence not reliable. 

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

That's why she thinks you're elim with Mistborn!STINK :P. That and this defense which seems over-the-top to me?

Sorry, that's probably because I'm kinda frustrated with Illwei dismissing everything I say as irrational

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Deflect what suspicion? Like you said, it was an unprompted and poke vote and therefore had nothing to defend against or deflect away.

You yourself said you assumed I had reasoning that I was either withholding or hadn't had time to state. Votes generally equate suspicion, especially from me : P I would imagine Archer could make that leap just as easily as you.

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

'This feels like village Illwei but that's NAI because elims try to act like villagers'? :P.

No, not because elims try to act like villagers, that's always true. I mean because in this game, the elims have far less TMI than normal, so their behavior in this game will be more similar to that of villagers. 

Also, it doesn't feel like village!Illwei in general--it feels like she did in QF51, specifically, where she spent C1 catastrophizing everything I said about her as either totally irrational or an elim trying to cast shade on her. Which normally I'd think was a very elim thing to do, but she turned out to be village so...

 

[Mat]

Hmm yeah those are all good points. Village points for Quinn, whether that stays depends on Stink and Archer's flips... maybe. not sure anymore :P.

[Quivil]

10 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Tani/STINK e/e but only if Tani flips first

Which is why you haven't changed your vote. :raises eyebrow at you, smiling:

[Quintessential]

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Hmm yeah those are all good points. Village points for Quinn, whether that stays depends on Stink and Archer's flips... maybe. not sure anymore :P.

You realize you can only conclude stuff from their flips if one of them is e-Mistborn, though, right?

(also, making good points about other people is much easier for elims in this game, so idk whether I really deserve those village points)

[Mat]

Just now, Quintessential said:

You realize you can only conclude stuff from their flips if one of them is e-Mistborn, though, right?

(also, making good points about other people is much easier for elims in this game, so idk whether I really deserve those village points)

Hence the maybe/not sure anymore  

How so? The elims basically know just as much as we do. I'd think it'd be about the same.

[Quivil]

Just now, Quintessential said:

You realize you can only conclude stuff from their flips if one of them is e-Mistborn, though, right?

(also, making good points about other people is much easier for elims in this game, so idk whether I really deserve those village points)

So... you want elim points instead of village points?

Ok. You just lost elim points.

 

I need another way to say forcefully that is not an -ly adjective...

[Quintessential]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

How so? The elims basically know just as much as we do. I'd think it'd be about the same.

I mean much easier for elims than usual XD sorry, shoulda been clearer. My point is that making a good argument is mostly NAI in this game.

[Mat]

1 minute ago, Quintessential said:

I mean much easier for elims than usual XD sorry, shoulda been clearer. My point is that making a good argument is mostly NAI in this game.

We're going to have a hard time getting anywhere, then xD

[Quintessential]

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

We're going to have a hard time getting anywhere, then xD

Ikr? I'm still trying to figure out what kind of analysis is actually gonna work in this game. Then again, once an elim dies (which could happen via NK in this game, which is good) we can look at whether they've tried to defend anyone, and be more suspicious of those people from there. Once we find an elim Mistborn, we can look at everyone who's defended them, though what the Mistborn themself has done is totally useless 'cause they know nothing : P

That's all I've got so far.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Quintessential
edited for clarity

[---]

Just now, Quintessential said:

This is just... idek but like... I can't tell whether it's just an Illwei thing to dismiss everything I say without giving any reason why, or whether it leans more towards v!her or e!her... I know she's done it as both but my gut associates it with e!her more than v!her so here's a vote. Probably will change this eventually, since it's meta + gut and hence not reliable. 

Look I'm not going to try and thunderdome you this game, nor do I want to die d1. I'm going to address this and then move on.

I did not dismiss your argument/statement. but since you think I did, I'll go back and actually try to respond to what you said.  

14 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

[1] I wasn't... trying... to convince you... [2] I'm just stating a thought that's been in the back of my mind for a bit. Not even sure what makes you think that I'm elim with Mistborn!STINK? I randomly voted on him. To see what the reaction would be, from him as much as from everyone else. I then found Archer's reaction odd, like he was trying to deflect suspicion from STINK. Therefore, I am tinfoiling (and not very seriously) Archer/STINK e/e-Mistborn. 

[3] This feels... exactly like QF51!Illwei actually XD but since the elims are gonna be acting pretty similar to villagers in this case, I'm gonna just say that's NAI. 

[4] (also, now alternatively tinfoiling Illwei/Archer e/e-Mistborn, but that's just as hazy and obviously they can't both be true so eh)

[1] I never said that you were trying to convince me. I Proposed STINK/you e/e, with the potential addition of Archer. You took that and spun it to STINK/Archer e/e with you not there. that sets it up for you to be potentially able to try and direct the vote onto Archer if STINK ever flips Mistborn. 

[2] I too, was just stating a thought :P. I was not trying to convince anyone, or even argue with anyone this yet. You and I seem to always get into shouting matches and I didn't want to do that. I get you're trying to engage with the thread and I'm the easiest to do that with, but it never actually goes anywhere good, and a gut read on me isn't enough to start that wallpost battle with :P.

[3] Coming back to this later

3 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

[5] Sorry, that's probably because I'm kinda frustrated with Illwei dismissing everything I say as irrational

[5] references my response to [4], in which I told you that you're making no sense now. I was dismissing a single sentence as irrational, because it was :P.

I made a theory about STINK/Quinn/Archer, then you immediately spin that into STINK/Archer, and then right after that turn it into Archer/Illwei. That 1) Makes no sense, just....at all. I didn't vote or interact with Archer at all to make you think that, and I even offered him up as a target, which you took. if he was my Mistborn I wouldn't have done that, and if I was the Mistborn then I wouldn't know he was my teammate. So what you did was try to turn all the suspicion off of you right there, and put it onto me and Archer, without giving any real reasoning, whether it made sense or not.

So I dismissed one thing. and it was irrational. It only makes sense from the perspective of an Elim trying to get people off their back.

3 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

[1] No, not because elims try to act like villagers, that's always true. I mean because in this game, the elims have far less TMI than normal, so their behavior in this game will be more similar to that of villagers. 

[2] Also, it doesn't feel like village!Illwei in general--it feels like she did in QF51, specifically, where she spent C1 catastrophizing everything I said about her as either totally irrational or an elim trying to cast shade on her. Which normally I'd think was a very elim thing to do, but she turned out to be village so...

[1] Right, were...were you not the person telling me that there was still ways to catch them? this was the point that I made before and you told me It was basically invalid, no? :P.

[2] I've already talked about meta, and I say again to you, why are you using my meta when you are one of the people who argue so adamantly against using yours?

I have not exaggerated or taken anything you've said out of context. I've barely replied to you. So I don't see how you think this is Elim-y of me.

 - Illwei throws out theory of STINK/Quinn/Archer team
 - Quinn says she thinks STINK/Archer team
 - Illwei Asks why
 - Quinn gives reasoning, and then modifies her guess to Illwei/Archer
 - Illwei thinks it is dumb that Quinn thinks Illwei/Archer because that makes no sense :P.
 - Quinn thinks Illwei is catastophizing everything she says

?? I don't see it, and I don't see how Matrim sees it. Even in this I'm trying not to, because I don't want to get in a big argument with you right now. I don't think you're an Elim yet, I threw out a guess at a team for fun, but the fact that you took it personally and then decided to vote on me for it is just ????

I'm now responding because apparently I was antagonizing your arguments and not responding to them simultaneously, according to you :P.  

You voting on me is not an Elim gut read of me, or meta. it's me suggesting suspicion of you, and you not liking that :P.

15 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Hmm yeah those are all good points. Village points for Quinn, whether that stays depends on Stink and Archer's flips... maybe. not sure anymore :P.

Again, huh?

18 minutes ago, Tani said:

Which is why you haven't changed your vote. :raises eyebrow at you, smiling:

Again, an offhand e/e read doesn't mean I think either of you are Elims rn, it means that if you flip Elim I'm more inclined to think that STINK is as well. you could also very well be village, and STINK could also very well be an Elim without you.

[Quivil]

Archer.

Illwei reads Village to me. All her points are valid, she doesn't seem to be twisting things, and gut.

[Liranil]

48 minutes ago, TJ Shade said:

And so it begins

  Hide contents

Lol that's me catching up on everything right now XD

I don't really feel like I have anything to contribute on the role analysis front since there's already been a lot said about that. I'm kinda leaning towards believing that the elim teams are of 3 or 4 each and for the sake of just-in-case overestimating, I'll probably assume 4 each. (Do the elim teams have to have the same number of players to start out with? There's nothing that specifically says that... hmm...)

I wasn't a fan of how much elim strategy Gears' first post suggested, but since it was pre-written (idk if you've specifically said that but if you wrote that much in the first ten minutes then hats off to you!), that's NAI. Quinn's reasoning seemed solid enough to me, but so does Illwei's... idk, there's definitely not a lot to go on yet. 

Because I think Quinn/Illwei both have good points: Stink

[Ashbringer]

2 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

My vote came well before theirs did, which I think is important. And I specifically said it wasn't mainly about the distancing. (Though I am paranoid it's a signaling thing. But again that's not the reason.)

It's not meant to be an opposite contribution crusade, to me it sort of feels like Archer is trying to steer the discussion in a selective way. And, like Tani said (and I alluded to), outing Vin would just result in her death in every situation.

Yeah, I just found the posts out of order. Mainly because it was TUO and Tani bouncing off of each other that bugged me.

But... uh... oh, here?

Quote

Get double ninja'd :P.

To be clear, that's wasn't the forefront reasoning to my vote.

Gotcha.

Opposite contribution crusade will hopefully never become a thing  I just meant that it was a lot of votes for not a lot of posts. But Archer does big posts so I guess that's not so unusual. But your point is noted; although elaboration would be appreciated, I've got two other votes to deal with... 

2 hours ago, Tani said:

My elaboration can be found in my superlong scanner post. The time where I first vote for Archer. The thing about "scanners should out any mistborn they find" rang soooooo many alarm bells for me...

... noted, but less noted.

This is what I was trying to get at - I'd prefer if we can get most of us on the same page D1/D2 about both 1) what a Seeker should do if they find a Mistborn (or a Terris does; Tineyes probably can't prove Mistborn-ness unless two Tineyes catch someone targeting two different people) and 2) what we should do if a Seeker outs one regardless of what we decided for #1. It seems like more people are leaning towards letting the Mistborn be, but I want people to take a side.

1 hour ago, The Unknown Order said:

Then Archer, I'm sorry but I don't have time to elaborate. 

Uh... well, when you do, I'd appreciate.

 

... aaaand there's a new page. Well, I'll edit this if there's any fires I need to put out. If not I need to do HW.

Edit: so Tani was off Archer and is now back on... hmm. I assume same reasoning still applies?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ashbringer

[Quintessential]

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

[1] I never said that you were trying to convince me. 

The thing about trying to convince you was in response to you saying:

Quote

Yeah no you're not convincing me here.

Since I wasn't trying to convince you, that response seemed a little... odd to me. But ig I can see that being just a figure of speech or something?

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I Proposed STINK/you e/e, with the potential addition of Archer. You took that and spun it to STINK/Archer e/e with you not there. that sets it up for you to be potentially able to try and direct the vote onto Archer if STINK ever flips Mistborn.

Okay, point of frustration here: Regardless of my alignment, I'm not about to say "yeah I might be e/e with STINK!" As it happens, I know that's literally impossible (spoiler alert: I'm village) so none of my theories are going to factor in that I might be elims with someone and it's kinda unreasonable for you to expect them to, or think it's weird that they don't. Okay?

Also, in retrospect I see what you mean--it does look like I was trying to spin it away from me. But seriously, I've been considering that theory literally since Archer voted me, and since you brought up an e/e relationship with STINK I figured I'd state the one I'd been thinking about. it just reminded me of it, that's all.

And yeah, if STINK ever flips e!Mistborn, I will probably vote Archer at least at first (though obviously plenty could change in the interim), and I assume you'll vote me. What everyone else does is up to them, as always.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I was dismissing a single sentence as irrational, because it was :P.

I'd love to hear an explanation of why it was irrational : P 

To be clearer about what I meant:

- Archer had four votes on him, and you came into the thread with an unrelated comment about STINK and me. Which is fine in and of itself.

- It reminded me of a tinfoil thing I'd thought of, so I responded with that.

- You said that didn't make sense and asked me to explain, which is fine. But when I did, and then you said it still didn't make sense, and since you didn't say why it didn't make sense that just felt like you were dismissing/deflecting it without really even thinking about it.

You outright dismissed the idea I'd had, which I wouldn't think was odd if it had included you. I guess this is the thing that frustrates me: you're equating my somewhat-dismissal of your theory with your outright dismissal of mine. However, I can personally dismiss your theory (though not publicly--and I did respond as best I could : P) because I know my alignment and know your theory can't be true. Village!you, on the other hand, would have no preconceived reason to think my theory is false--in fact, technically our theories could both be true, though why I'd propose mine if me and STINK are elims together, idk--and so I'd assume you would at least genuinely consider it. You don't seem to have done that, though, or at least if you have, you've skipped the step of explaining what in your consideration you found to be lacking about my idea.

So at this point I'm tinfoiling (note the emphasis on that word here) that Archer is elim with you and you're trying to deflect attention away from him.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

So I dismissed one thing. and it was irrational. It only makes sense from the perspective of an Elim trying to get people off their back.

People aren't on my back in the first place, so no on that point. The only person who's voted me is Archer, and nobody's really expressed suspicion of me. Given that you said your theory felt tunnely to you, I wasn't worried about it. Again, it just reminded me of something I'd been thinking of. 

Also, again, I'd love to hear an explanation of why it was irrational, any more than anything anyone else has to say about other players during C1.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

[1] Right, were...were you not the person telling me that there was still ways to catch them? this was the point that I made before and you told me It was basically invalid, no? :P.

At which point you responded, pointed out that there weren't really ways to catch elims, I realized you're right, and I'm now of that view as well.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

[2] I've already talked about meta, and I say again to you, why are you using my meta when you are one of the people who argue so adamantly against using yours?

sigh okay sorry this needed clarification. I note that you feel like you did in QF51. Purely an observation. I'm voting on you because the thing that makes you seem like in QF51 reads elimmy to me in general (and also is something you've done in elim games but that isn't the primary reason), and I thought it was pretty odd in QF51 too. If I were going purely, or mostly, off of meta, I wouldn't be voting you at all because since you were vil in QF51, I'd be thinking "huh, this is a vil thing for Illwei". 

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

- Illwei throws out theory of STINK/Quinn/Archer team
 - Quinn says she thinks STINK/Archer team
 - Illwei Asks why

This is accurate; this much I agree with.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

 - Quinn gives reasoning, and then modifies her guess to Illwei/Archer

I gave reasoning, yeah. However, I wasn't modifying my guess. I was stating an alternative theory that I could see being true. As it is, I can still see STINK/Archer, though I'm leaning more towards Archer/Illwei now. But at the time that I proposed the latter, I could easily have seen either being true.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

 - Illwei thinks it is dumb that Quinn thinks Illwei/Archer because that makes no sense :P.

See my detailed explanation above.

53 minutes ago, Illwei said:

decided to vote on me for it is just ????

The vote is partly out of frustration, if I'm being honest. It feels like you're either not reading anything I say or intentionally misinterpreting it. So. I'm frustrated. 

But also. If it is intentional misrepresentation, then that's elimmy : P so that's the other place the vote stems from.

(yes, I'm aware that I said the vote was partly based on meta. Thinking about it now, it wasn't, or at least it no longer is. I can't actually think of a time in either MR48 or LG74 where you've really done... this, whatever this is. Or, if it happened it was milder there.)

And yeah, I didn't want to have another wallpost argument either : P

Edited March 17, 2021 by Quintessential

[Archer]

Striker.

 I propose we put votes/retractions at the start of posts, to help the GM out. 

Welcome to the madness, Whysper.

I’ve been trying to think of how elim!me would signal to my mistborn that I’m on their team. Voting for them is not a strategy I would consider. It seems like a good way to get read as a threat, not an ally.

I realize I’ve been connected to Stink, and this probably won’t help my case, but I see little reason to sus them. They haven’t said anything objectionable, and the alleged signalling that’s occurring is so blatant that it can’t be real. My pocketing comment looks bad, but I’d like to believe elim!me would have joined a CW rather than take a shot at Quinn the way I did. On that front, I’d say if the Stink thing bugs you, vote who you think is their teammate, not Stink themselves. It’s Quinn and I who have been sus, not Stink.

Taniel has an interesting playstyle. High effort, low originality; their biggest posts have been rehashing established content. That said, I think they’ve found their groove now, and they have more confidence joking about being an elim than I think a real elim would.

Also, putting it out there, I’m reading Quinn as village. My preferred exes are Striker, Gears, and Flyingbooks, in that order. Striker seemed a little too eager to shed Illwei’s poke while being casual about it, and I didn’t really agree with much they said in the rest of that post either. It’s all defendable, but in context, it felt off, so that’s where my vote is going. Gut read, wooo.

Sorry, gotta go, otherwise I'd read the recent posts more closely. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Archer