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19 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Yo idk what I'm doing this game but if someone dares to call meta on me i will smite you

even though the last time it happened, it was right? :P 

20 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Yo honestly this game is gonna be tougher for village because the Elims...don't have as much TMI as normal? especially with both 1) a second elim team that they have to find as well, either to take out or avoid and 2) The other members of their faction to find. so it's going to be a ton easier for them to try and look like they're solving the game, and a tonne easier for them to not look coordinated because...they can't coordinate. so yeah.

A. This makes it harder for them too and B. there will be other tells, though. They can't coordinate their efforts, so if one of the elim Mistborn falls under suspicion, each of them is going to individually have to respond, without knowing for sure whether anyone else will. So at that point they will be quite obvious.

That being said, though, you're right :P. I have no idea to what extent, if at all, vote analysis will actually work in this game XD though I'm still gonna try.

22 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Note that there are going to be two factional kills a cycle though. the counter here I assume is the Elims not knowing their own teams /shrug.

Right, if they got really unlucky they might even accidentally NK one of their own. But that's... probably too much to hope for. I feel reasonably optimistic that at least one of the elims kills will hit an elim from the opposite team, though :) 

6 minutes ago, Gears said:

The roles in this game are weak enough that I find role madness a reasonable assumption until a counterclaim exists.

This is not to say that we're asking any vanillas that may or may not be out there to claim, though XD please let this not be a repeat of TJ's last game

7 minutes ago, Gears said:

Given that each elim knows the Mistborn and one other, teams of three mean that the non-Mistborns all know who each other are. As such, I'm discounting teams of 3 because it removes the 'unknown teammates' aspect of the game.

Note that TJ said the knowledge of an additional member was subject to the number of players. @TJ Shade can you confirm one way or another whether the elims know two other members each or just one?

Would note that I agree with Archer to an extent about theorizing what the elims will do. I think it's fine to an extent, but seriously, it doesn't help us to talk about how the elims might theoretically find one another so please just refrain XD talking about who the elims will vote for/kill is less dangerous, since, again, they don't know who each other all are. The Mistborn can do that, yeah, but at that point we can catch them just by noting whose predictions of the NK are most accurate : P

11 minutes ago, Gears said:

Assumptions are inherently bad [not suspicious, disadvantageous].

I take personal offense at this statement

13 minutes ago, Gears said:

Pre-written analysis is prewritten. And NAI, presumably. Unless you think otherwise, in which case do inform me as to why.

I believe Archer's point is that regardless of when you wrote it, it does help both elim teams when people theorize ways they could find each other. The rest I have no problem with, but I do think the various mentions of strategies for the teams to use in locating each other were somewhat unnecessary. 

~~~

Tesse Mourn had absolutely no idea how she'd gotten herself into this. This was almost as bad as that time a few years ago in Fallion's Tears... She'd seen a lot, since then, but dealing with two different armies laying siege to her new home city, and then having to trick their leaders and their Mistborn into murdering each other... for neither the first nor the last time, she wished she weren't a Soother.* They never would have asked her to do this if she weren't.

*for legal reasons I'd like to clarify that this is not a real Soother claim. Interested parties see LG74 for details.

 

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Faleast smiled. It was good to be back.

I'm back too, you know, whispered AraRaash in his head. They still hadn't figured out a better way of communicating without mental-speaking... AraRaash had a few ideas, but Faleast had vetoed them on account of the likelihood they would leave him hanging from a hook. Having a second jaw... that wouldn't go without drawing attention. And attention meant Inquisitors, and Faleast had not had a good time the last time he'd met an In

Now that's not fair. The hook's for abusing Allomancy. They'd just cut your head off.

"The point is taken," Faleast said dully. "But this works for now, now that Ruin's not a problem." Or, not his problem.

How'd we do that again? I forget.

"I don't think it's happened yet. But it will, one way or the other. Just not sure how."

Ah. So the Principle was invoked again?

"... the what?" Faleast whispered.

Oh. You don't remember? I guess so. Well... I'll explain it when you're older.

"I miss Derrick already," Faleast said, chuckling. The experiment had been a nice change. One insanity for another.

Great. Well, I wouldn't discount Ruin entirely. My guess is he won't be able to imitate the both of us, but he can definitely speak and possibly listen. He's just not. Because he knows how this is going to go, and either way it does...

Faleast nodded. Well, he had a meeting to head to. The Ventures were looking for atium. They wouldn't find it, of course; it was possible Rashek had hidden some in Kredik Shaw, but the majority was in the Trust. That and a handful of beads embedded under Faleast's sternum, but those weren't exactly for sale. Faleast couldn't use it, but he would figure out what to do with them in time. Fortune was an elusive art; not as useful to him under the guard of the Overseer - best still to call them that, he thought - but still something he could do a lot with.

No, Faleast had his eyes set on a much grander prize. It had eluded him in Fallion's Tears. Probably didn't even exist there. But here... that was a different story, wasn't it?

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15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

even though the last time it happened, it was right? :P 

Alas, though your conclusion was technically right, the reasoning was wrong, and will lead you astray more often than not if you continue to follow it

but oop guess I'm an Elim again this time too. welp.

15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

A. This makes it harder for them too

How? because they can accidentally vote eachother out? this doesn't exactly help them but their lack of coordination and TMI is a benefit to them, and I stand by that. They vote someone out? they're down one, but they've gone deeper.

15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

B. there will be other tells, though.

Besides the Mistborn? I'd rather not rely on just people defending their mistborn, but /shrug. there isn't anything else. I don't like that, and it's going to make it hard. So yeah. Mistborns are the "other tells" but that's basically it.

15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

Right, if they got really unlucky they might even accidentally NK one of their own. But that's... probably too much to hope for.

nope:

On 3/9/2021 at 9:20 AM, TJ Shade said:

If the player with the highest votes is a member of their faction, the player with the second highest votes is killed instead, and so on.

15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

I think it's fine to an extent, but seriously, it doesn't help us to talk about how the elims might theoretically find one another so please just refrain XD talking about who the elims will vote for/kill is less dangerous, since, again, they don't know who each other all are.

If you have a theory about how the Elims might find eachother than keep it to yourself until you think you see it happen. I think talking about who you think they're going to kill is just completely useless, not...Harmful. I don't remember anyone mentioning talking about this so ??? just kinda a strange thing to talk about in the first place so???

15 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

*for legal reasons I'd like to clarify that this is not a real Soother claim. Interested parties see LG74 for details.

Gottit. You're a soother :P.

Striker

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25 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Yo honestly this game is gonna be tougher for village because the Elims...don't have as much TMI as normal? especially with both 1) a second elim team that they have to find as well, either to take out or avoid and 2) The other members of their faction to find. so it's going to be a ton easier for them to try and look like they're solving the game, and a tonne easier for them to not look coordinated because...they can't coordinate. so yeah.

I will kill you right now. Sorry this is just my dislike of people trying to control the thread coming through :P.

I agree it will be harder to read the kills as there is a lot of randomness and lack of communication going on. 

I feel like asking people not to lie is a legitimate request to make. If someone role-claims then a scanner reveals they have a different role, are we supposed to just ignore it? In the unlikely event that we get a break like that, I intend to take advantage of it. I'm saying that now as fair warning to any villagers who might be considering a gambit. 

7 minutes ago, Gears said:

1. Given that each elim knows the Mistborn and one other, teams of three mean that the non-Mistborns all know who each other are. As such, I'm discounting teams of 3 because it removes the 'unknown teammates' aspect of the game.

2. Better that everyone knows, yes? Better that everyone is aware of the worst-case. [I do concede that you're probably right about this, but I find that public knowledge about every possible thing is advantageous as well.]

Exactly the opposite. Elims would be more honest if anything because they have much more to lose. Also, Vin, our Mistborn, all hail, would plausibly lie about their role considering their power. And chaos is good. A note: You have great analysis but make broad assumptions at the end. Assumptions are inherently bad [not suspicious, disadvantageous].

Pre-written analysis is prewritten. And NAI, presumably. Unless you think otherwise, in which case do inform me as to why.

3. The thought was every semi-elim openly claiming their faction to vote as a bloc and constantly X and kill villagers to get rid of the X and then promptly slaughtering each other. It's not viable because the first team to betray wins in that case but there must be a certain degree of villagers killed.

1. My reading of the rules was that the wording was designed to maintain balance as the game scaled. So if there were only a dozen players, the elim team would know every member of their group. If we had 25 players and therefore bigger elim teams, the uncertainty would enter into it. A small, coordinated elim team in a small game has less of an advantage than a large coordinated elim team in a large game, because in bigger games, the proportionate number of non-voters increases. Two people can't hammer a six person game because everyone votes, but five people can hammer a 20 person game because usually only half the players vote in those.

2. I appreciate your appreciation of my analysis. Having highlighted the risks of TMI, I'll remove my vote. Gears (sorry, TJ. I'm going to do this a lot this game.) My analysis is indeed NAI, save the responses to quotes. 

3. I'm fairly sure Illwei was joking about their plan for the elims. Joking is part of village!Illwei's meta... I'll note that down

4 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

Right, if they got really unlucky they might even accidentally NK one of their own. But that's... probably too much to hope for. I feel reasonably optimistic that at least one of the elims kills will hit an elim from the opposite team, though :) 

This is not to say that we're asking any vanillas that may or may not be out there to claim, though XD please let this not be a repeat of TJ's last game

I believe the elims can't kill those on their own team, but they are free to take out the other team.

Correction to my thought from earlier that we can see if there's multiples of roles by counting the number of vote manips we get C2: Gears said we aren't told the counts, so that will be hard to do. I'm not sure how I feel about vanillas claiming. 

3 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

No, Faleast had his eyes set on a much grander prize. It had eluded him in Fallion's Tears. Probably didn't even exist there. But here... that was a different story, wasn't it?

*hides atium stash*

(*for legal reasons, that isn't a claim either)

1 hour ago, PizzaPower55 said:

I believe you refer to me when you say "pizza guy", so hello!

Is this your first mafia game? 

3 minutes ago, Illwei said:

1. How? because they can accidentally vote eachother out? this doesn't exactly help them but their lack of coordination and TMI is a benefit to them, and I stand by that. They vote someone out? they're down one, but they've gone deeper.

2. Besides the Mistborn? I'd rather not rely on just people defending their mistborn, but /shrug. there isn't anything else. I don't like that, and it's going to make it hard. So yeah. Mistborns are the "other tells" but that's basically it.

3. If you have a theory about how the Elims might find eachother than keep it to yourself until you think you see it happen. I think talking about who you think they're going to kill is just completely useless, not...Harmful. I don't remember anyone mentioning talking about this so ??? just kinda a strange thing to talk about in the first place so???

1. They also can't set up MLs as easily. 

2. They also can't coordinate their voting or role use to defend each other, so it is less subtle.  

3. Agreed. Comment after someone does what you think an elim would do, not before to give them ideas. 

I was ninja'd a lot writing this. Oop. Now if you'll excuse me, I have an LG aftermath to read...

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8 minutes ago, Illwei said:

but oop guess I'm an Elim again this time too. welp.

lol nah I currently have no gut/meta read on you at all. Which is... yeah idk what that means XD

8 minutes ago, Illwei said:

How? because they can accidentally vote eachother out? this doesn't exactly help them but their lack of coordination and TMI is a benefit to them, and I stand by that. They vote someone out? they're down one, but they've gone deeper.

The whole advantage that elim teams normally have is TMI, and free communcation/coordination, to balance out their more limited numbers. Here, they have like basically none of that. That's what I mean.

Yes, it will be harder to find the elims because they don't have TMI, but it will also be harder for them to do anything because they don't have TMI. That was what I meant : P

(ninja'd by Archer saying the same thing more succinctly lol)

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6 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

Yes, it will be harder to find the elims because they don't have TMI, but it will also be harder for them to do anything because they don't have TMI. That was what I meant : P

And my point remains that the Elims being hard to find means that they won't need to try as much for MLs

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1 hour ago, Illwei said:

Yo idk what I'm doing this game but if someone dares to call meta on me i will smite you

I will also take my free potshot at saying that this meta is unbecoming of you Illwei, and my meta demands that you meta is out meta-d in the meta-defining way of SE that is the meta red of Illwei

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You know, when I first saw this game I hoped I'd get to be Elim for it. Partially because I thought it would be supercool.

PMs are closed tho, so sad. :(

Oo! I know! One way you Elims can let your Mistborns know who you are is by voting for them! :) Then you will win.

I kinda wonder what would happen if the Elims joined together and took over the thread...

Ok. Imma alignment claim now. I have the alignment of: Whatever side wins. :)

 

Just random stuff.

Also, Liranil.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something had happened. Something to do with... ducks? Reva couldn't remember exactly.

She had found something, though. Something she hadn't had before, tucked into her coin pouch.

A single bead of atium, and a memory that came with it.

A name. Derrick.

A place. Fallion's Tears.

And a fear. A taste of a fear she could not name.

The strangest part was that she had never before set foot outside her homeland.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, Imma clarify something here: Reva is not Daux (LG74), she has somehow had (some of) his memories implanted into her head. I'm not sure how, but magic.

P.S. I agree with Quinn and Archer and Ash. Just cuz you say stuff about metal doesn't mean you're roleclaiming.

 

 

Edit: @STINK: You're s'posed to bold the votes...

Edited by Tani
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49 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

STINK @STINK

Can we have reasoning? :P.

I've decided that this game I don't really want to try to meta read anyone. It's dug me into a lot of holes lately and I don't want to do that, so I'm going to try to look at things from this game and this game only (to a certain and reasonable extent). Don't know how well that will work, though.

Still busy with other things, I'll do a readthrough later :/ Sorry.

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I hear ya, Mat. Anyway, Flyingbooks followed the thread around when it was posted. Shortly after, TJ made a clarification that no secret text is allowed. When I GMed the QF, Flyingbooks asked about using white text, so I know it's something they think about. Elims have more reason than villagers to want to secretly communicate. Unfortunately, they said they'd be inactive the first cycle due to schoolwork, so I can't follow-up on my suspicions. 

Quinn agreed with me a lot in their posts so far, so I worry they're trying to pocket me. Quinn

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2 hours ago, Archer said:

I feel like asking people not to lie is a legitimate request to make. If someone role-claims then a scanner reveals they have a different role, are we supposed to just ignore it? In the unlikely event that we get a break like that, I intend to take advantage of it. I'm saying that now as fair warning to any villagers who might be considering a gambit.

I'll add a note on this: I don't think fake-claiming in and of itself is a bad thing. (Kas's LG Aftermath post gives a few good reasons for this, but 1) that's the LG with perfect Seekers and 2) a whole lot of PMs.)

Lurchers and Seekers, for instance, probably should fake a claim if given the chance, because those are really powerful roles even outside of LG/AG rules and thus are much more likely to get Elim killed, especially in this environment where there's two Elim teams. And a Seeker shouldn't out them unless they've got a really good reason to (ie they've burned another metal giving them a 2/3 chance of being Elim, or if they've been protecting Elims / scanning people who later die).

On the other hand, the main point of being a Thug is to not let anyone know you're a Thug so you can soak up an Elim kill or hammer or attempted misexe. Plus outed Thugs tend to have a hard time in games where there are confirmed Elim roles with extra lives, such as Conversion games or this game with the two Elim Mistborn. So fake-claiming as a Thug also is a good strategy.

If someone claims they're a Thug but is actually a visiting role, or claims Smoker but is actually a Coinshot, that's reason enough for suspicion. But fake-claiming as a Lurcher/Seeker/Thug is something that I think is fairly innocuous.

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Game two and I am already confused! Though, to be fair, this feels a bit more complex than the last one :P.

5 hours ago, Illwei said:

Striker

Mans hasn't even spoken yet :sad_cowboy:

 

Edited by Biplet
tragically, my sad cowboy image did not show up
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Bip there is so much not going on in that post I am extremely confused

Alas, I am just Perpetually ConfusedTM so /shrug

Edited by Illwei
ah. twas an image. Yeah if you tried to c/p that won't work. alas.
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Just now, Illwei said:

Bip there is so much not going on in that post I am extremely confused

I just wanted to post my sad cowboy image without annoying everyone, but I do not know how spoilering works. Thus you get text sad_cowboy

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Variel watched the day's events closely. It seemed that Straff and Cett had decided to come for Luthadel. Well, he couldn't have that happening in his city, now could he?

~

Hello! I'm alive. Today was rough, and I've only just now had time to go through and read the thread. Some thoughts I had, in no particular order:

  • Not a fan of telling players how to play the game, whether that's telling them not to lie or to avoid talking about certain subjects that might help the elims. Not only is it perfectly valid to lie as a villager, it can sometimes even be beneficial as well, if the LG is anything to show us. Plus, the elims are already thinking about every way they might figure out who their teammates are. It's not like anything that's put in the thread will be new to them. Sure, if someone does a lot of talking about how the elims might coordinate, you can start side eying them, but I'm not a fan of preemptively telling players to avoid discussing something they might want to.
  • To Vin: avoid claiming like the plague. The mistborns in this game are probably more powerful in general this game overall, because (besides Zane for most of the time) they can choose the metals they want to use. Having that choice is a great plus for the village, even if you can't kill anyone. 
  • To village scanners: please don't out Vin. The elims will all go after her if she's been outed, and they can be fairly certain she'll die as both teams will probably go for her, double hitting her.
  • @Illwei That vote's pretty fair, I'll give you that. :P

I feel like I'm forgetting something, but don't know what. It probably wasn't important. :P

Anyway, testing something to help bip out:

Spoiler

722889084871376958.png

 

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4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Anyway, testing something to help bip out:

please tell me what you did and why you and bip are magical and why your emojis don't have the dJDKFHDSKJH border around them

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Not a fan of telling players how to play the game, whether that's telling them not to lie or to avoid talking about certain subjects that might help the elims.

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

To Vin: avoid claiming like the plague

haha. but I second. but also if you're about to voted out then /shrug I see no downsides.

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Illwei That vote's pretty fair, I'll give you that. :P

:thinking;

Edited by Illwei
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Just now, Illwei said:

haha. but I second. but also if you're about to voted out then /shrug I see no downsides.

....how do I always have some sort of very obvious contradiction in my first posts???

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

please tell me what you did and why you and bip are magical and why your emojis don't have the dJDKFHDSKJH border around them

it's the power of our love for each other, obviously. :P

(for those not aware, me and Bip are dating)

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2 hours ago, Archer said:

Quinn agreed with me a lot in their posts so far, so I worry they're trying to pocket me. Quinn

I don't really love this reasoning- I mean, if you made good points you can expect people to agree with you. If people don't agree with you D1, chances are that's where their vote is going. So I'm not really sure where this is coming from. Though I'll only flag you for now because the rest of your posts have seemed village to me.

Striker's post reads village to me. I... really don't know what to think about that :P.

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1 minute ago, Illwei said:

obviously he's evil

Well with my history

But I also don’t want to make assumptions based on meta which I already said I’m gonna try not to rely on especially in this case where I know it likely will be unreliable. But that turns into an IKYK with myself.

So ignoring it is. Playing by reads this game, Striker’s slight village. Until I have a reason to doubt that.

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