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Limits of compounding


therunner

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Hello,

I was wondering about upper limits on the compounding. From the case of Lord Ruler we know that even with compounding atium you cannot maintain youth indefinitely, due to your spiritweb "knowing" the proper age, and eventually even compounding cannot provide enough f-charge to maintain the effect.

Also, Sazed states that feruchemy gives diminishing returns, with WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6126) making it sound like that the diminishing returns appear only if you tap "faster" then when storing (does this also inversely imply that taping slower than storing also produces diminished effect, with some investiture being used to "stretch out" the charge?)

Combined, I was wondering if this implies some sort of upper limit on the compounding, i.e. that the amount of f-attribute gained when tapping *-mind eventually tapers out to some maximum amount, which it approaches in the limiting case of infinite feruchemical charge in the *-mind. From Lord Ruler we know such limitation exists for atium, so I wonder if some other attributes might exhibit either this limitation due to spirit web, or due to potential diminishing returns of feruchemy.

In cases where this limitation would be applicable, it would mean that while compounding is exponential for producing f-charge, for the purpose of actually using the attribute it behaves more like scaled logistic function.

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Well, yes, you can't Compouding Pewter (for example) to have infinite strength because there is a limit to how fast you can burn a metalmind and how much you can store. This limit probably depends on each user, but it means that there is a limit on how much attribute you can use at once without extinguishing everything at the same time.

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22 minutes ago, therunner said:

does this also inversely imply that taping slower than storing also produces diminished effect, with some investiture being used to "stretch out" the charge?

I think not, though tapping it slower than you stored it would let it last longer at a weaker potency, in general.

22 minutes ago, therunner said:

Combined, I was wondering if this implies some sort of upper limit on the compounding, i.e. that the amount of f-attribute gained when tapping *-mind eventually tapers out to some maximum amount, which it approaches in the limiting case of infinite feruchemical charge in the *-mind. From Lord Ruler we know such limitation exists for atium, so I wonder if some other attributes might exhibit either this limitation due to spirit web, or due to potential diminishing returns of feruchemy.

In cases where this limitation would be applicable, it would mean that while compounding is exponential for producing f-charge, for the purpose of actually using the attribute it behaves more like scaled logistic function.

It does seem to be the case, though at least F-Gold seems to have no practical limitation to what it can heal from when compounded

[Stormlight/Warbreaker]

Spoiler

(You could survive being cut by a Shardblade, though I suspect Nightblood would still be a threat).

 

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1 hour ago, therunner said:

Combined, I was wondering if this implies some sort of upper limit on the compounding, i.e. that the amount of f-attribute gained when tapping *-mind eventually tapers out to some maximum amount, which it approaches in the limiting case of infinite feruchemical charge in the *-mind. From Lord Ruler we know such limitation exists for atium, so I wonder if some other attributes might exhibit either this limitation due to spirit web, or due to potential diminishing returns of feruchemy.

Seems to be. Sazed told us he have not enough atributes in Metalminds he swallowed because they were simply small (to be possible to swallow).

So there are two main "material" limitations of compounding:

1. Size of metalminds - you cannot have large Metalminds to swallow and burn (is possible to burn metals elswhere, but it is difficult) and you cannot have infinite metalminds to store (they need to be in contact with your body).

2. Burning rate. You cannot burn metals infinitly fast.

But those limits are very high in case of normal metals, we can even imagine Compounder inside of special Metalmind Armor.

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1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I think not, though tapping it slower than you stored it would let it last longer at a weaker potency, in general.

I at first thought the same, but at the same time if what is stored is lets say "10 kg/day" and to tap faster you need to sort of "fold" it (in the WoB Brandon uses the word compound, which i want to avoid) to get more out of it, which costs some energy. Going along with this to tap slower then stored, you need to "thin" it out. Honestly I also mostly think that to tap slower does not result in diminished capacity, but I though it is good to mention.

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

It does seem to be the case, though at least F-Gold seems to have no practical limitation to what it can heal from when compounded

[Stormlight/Warbreaker]

  Reveal hidden contents

(You could survive being cut by a Shardblade, though I suspect Nightblood would still be a threat).

 

I would say that it makes sense that F-gold would not suffer from the speculated limitation, as it works by restoring the physical self to spiritual ideal (filtered through cognitive). You can never be more like your ideal self, so in this sense F-gold would not create tension between spiritweb and physical self (as it does not change you from your spiritweb but towards your spiritual ideal).

8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Seems to be. Sazed told us he have not enough atributes in Metalminds he swallowed because they were simply small (to be possible to swallow).

So there are two main "material" limitations of compounding:

1. Size of metalminds - you cannot have large Metalminds to swallow and burn (is possible to burn metals elswhere, but it is difficult) and you cannot have infinite metalminds to store (they need to be in contact with your body).

2. Burning rate. You cannot burn metals infinitly fast.

But those limits are very high in case of normal metals, we can even imagine Compounder inside of special Metalmind Armor.

I do agree that these 'material' limitations are sufficiently high to not affect Compounding. That is why I wanted to focus on the more spiritual limitations (in line with Lord Ruler and atium) and on the potential diminishing returns due to limitations of Feruchemy itself.

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Just now, therunner said:

I at first thought the same, but at the same time if what is stored is lets say "10 kg/day" and to tap faster you need to sort of "fold" it (in the WoB Brandon uses the word compound, which i want to avoid) to get more out of it, which costs some energy. Going along with this to tap slower then stored, you need to "thin" it out. Honestly I also mostly think that to tap slower does not result in diminished capacity, but I though it is good to mention.

I would say that it makes sense that F-gold would not suffer from the speculated limitation, as it works by restoring the physical self to spiritual ideal (filtered through cognitive). You can never be more like your ideal self, so in this sense F-gold would not create tension between spiritweb and physical self (as it does not change you from your spiritweb but towards your spiritual ideal).

I do agree that these 'material' limitations are sufficiently high to not affect Compounding. That is why I wanted to focus on the more spiritual limitations (in line with Lord Ruler and atium) and on the potential diminishing returns due to limitations of Feruchemy itself.

I wonder if Bronze compounding would eventually reach a similar limit to Atium compounding, if you stay awake for enough consecutive years.

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54 minutes ago, therunner said:

I do agree that these 'material' limitations are sufficiently high to not affect Compounding. That is why I wanted to focus on the more spiritual limitations (in line with Lord Ruler and atium) and on the potential diminishing returns due to limitations of Feruchemy itself.

Atium is very specific due to fact is pure Ruin. This mean feruchemicaly you dont have equal parts of Preservation and Ruin, you have just a little Preservation and a lot of Ruin. This mean Atium is Intended to waste power and cause Entropy. In this case - internally. Unlike other atributes of Body, witch are always part of this Body, Youth is limited and temporary.

Probably this also thoe thing in case of other atributes, but in much lesser extend. For example, old Windwhisper probably would need to Tap metalminds more for the same effect when he was young due to fact old man's senses are weaker. The same for Brute, Sparker, probably also even Bloodmaker.

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