Article on Iron

[therunner]

Hello,

when going through the article on Iron (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron) I noticed that in the section on Feruchemical use it says the following:

"An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer. Iron is used to store physical mass, or more accurately, density."

and quotes the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum (citation [2]) for it, however when going through my copy of Alloy of Law, no mention of density was made. Are there multiple version of Alloy of Law with different Ars Arcanum?

Also, in combination with this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692 which is also quoted in the Feruchemical Use section, which says :

" I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets."

I think the case is that F-Iron while F-Iron stores weight, somehow that does not translate to any effective change in density (which admittedly does not make much sense considering the definition of density), so I think the mention of storing density should be removed.

[Starwatcher]

Yeah, Feruchemical iron is... complicated. I can't find a mention of density in the AoL Ars Arcanum, but Sazed does mention density in HoA chapter 78: "Tapping weight increased the density of his body and of his bones, keeping him from damaging himself as he collapsed on top of the soldier." Since Sazed (WoA chapter 12) and Wax (BoM chapter 12) both make a point that just storing in their ironminds doesn't change how fast they fall, as well as Khriss' comments about conservation of momentum in that chapter of BoM (which there's also a WoB about), I think iron has to store mass, not weight, and that density increases some as you tap your ironmind (as part of the whole, "you also get some side effects so that you don't accidentally kill yourself"), but not as much as it should based on your increase in mass, probably because of Higgs field and other particle physics shenanigans (i.e. at the end of the day, at a certain point, Brandon's telling a story, not trying to find a scientific theory that perfectly describes his fictional world, and if you look too closely there's going to be some handwaving).

[therunner]

Thanks for the reply and the details on Sazed, it has been a while since I read HoA. I know it imparts enough strength/resistance to allow the body to handle the increased weight, but the WoB I linked seems to imply to me that somehow this resistance does not extended to external threats (bullets, knives). However the quote from Sazed can be read that the increased density does protect him to some extent, although it could also be read that it simply allows him to fall without breaking his bones under his weight (this used to be a big problem for theropods, likeT-Rex, if they fell they would most likely break some bone).

I do agree that ultimately there is no scientific theory that would fully describe it as it is literature after all, I was interested in the density argument as it came up in some speculations on the topic of compounders. And seeing no mention of it in the arcanum that was quoted I though I would ask.

[Starwatcher]

Yeah, I do agree that the "or more accurately, density" line that's currently in the article isn't, in fact, accurate; I'll try to at least clear that up some.

...and, done: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron?&diff=146410&oldid=137252

Edited March 5, 2021 by Starwatcher
Made the edit

[BenduLuke]

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Hello,

when going through the article on Iron (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron) I noticed that in the section on Feruchemical use it says the following:

"An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer. Iron is used to store physical mass, or more accurately, density."

and quotes the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum (citation [2]) for it, however when going through my copy of Alloy of Law, no mention of density was made. Are there multiple version of Alloy of Law with different Ars Arcanum?

Also, in combination with this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692 which is also quoted in the Feruchemical Use section, which says :

" I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets."

I think the case is that F-Iron while F-Iron stores weight, somehow that does not translate to any effective change in density (which admittedly does not make much sense considering the definition of density), so I think the mention of storing density should be removed.

 

2 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

Yeah, I do agree that the "or more accurately, density" line that's currently in the article isn't, in fact, accurate; I'll try to at least clear that up some.

...and, done: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron?&diff=146410&oldid=137252

I have been looking at this article for some time and it seemed to me that neither Sazed or Wax was able to store enough mass to make an appreciable difference in density because they could only store weight 1 to 1 and tapped it with some regularity thus removing it. However if either had been an Iron compounder that that would have been a different story. Their density would have increased sufficiently through allomantic multiplication to make a difference in penetration and durability. So the correction @Starwatcher made actually muddies the issue. The issue isn't whether tapping weight would make a person more resistant to damage, but whether a regular Iron ferring could store enough weight to make a difference. The other problem with tapping attributes is you only get back all of your storage if you tap it at the rate you stored it, but both Wax and Sazed tapped it much faster than they stored it converting some and perhaps more than some of the mass into the force to more rapidly recover the weight. Instead of changing what the article said it may have been better to include a potential compounding section as a special circumstance.

The corrections @Starwatcher made violate conservation of momentum laws. Some degree of damage resistance would need to happen to Steel compounders to compensate for tapping large amounts of speed from their metalminds stored though compounding. Again a Ferring wouldn't necessarily have that issue due to the limited amount of speed they could store. The problem with Iron/Steel compounding is one of scale not a problem with the definition with regard to regular ferrings.

Edited March 5, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Starwatcher]

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. It's a weird scenario, we have a book that says there is some density increase but also a WoB basically saying it's negligible. Overall, I don't read what we have as establishing that that an iron Twinborn could significantly increase their density. It seems possible to me that, whatever density change there is just sort of caps out at a certain point, after which you're in danger of killing yourself by tapping too much iron (kind of like you risk killing yourself by running too fast if you're a steel Twinborn). Ultimately, my general feeling right now is that, based on the information we currently have, this is the most we can say without being too speculative for the Coppermind.

[therunner]

I would also point out two things:

1) If tapping weight made appreciabale difference to density (even if only with compounding) then storing lets say 95% of weight should then decrease durability considerably (we have WoB that becoming weightless is impossible, but coming very close probably isn't you would just get diminishing returns), and someone should have noticed that.

2) The durability argument also has the issue that most of durability does not come from mass of atoms/molecules, but from the bonding energy, which should not increase by tapping weight (this is complicated by them being able to handle the increased mass without breaking bones).

In my mind it works roughly that the body itself does not know its effective mass increased (through some spiritual realm shenanigans), so it can move as usual without breaking, but for external things the body is much heavier. I.e. only its external connections (to ground, others, etc.) are affected, not ones internal to body.

[BenduLuke]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I would also point out two things:

1) If tapping weight made appreciabale difference to density (even if only with compounding) then storing lets say 95% of weight should then decrease durability considerably (we have WoB that becoming weightless is impossible, but coming very close probably isn't you would just get diminishing returns), and someone should have noticed that.

2) The durability argument also has the issue that most of durability does not come from mass of atoms/molecules, but from the bonding energy, which should not increase by tapping weight (this is complicated by them being able to handle the increased mass without breaking bones).

In my mind it works roughly that the body itself does not know its effective mass increased (through some spiritual realm shenanigans), so it can move as usual without breaking, but for external things the body is much heavier. I.e. only its external connections (to ground, others, etc.) are affected, not ones internal to body.

it could also be that mass is added from the spirit realm. Regardless whether the body knows the mass has increased it must have, or their relative strength wouldn't increase proportionally to handle the effects of the increased weight, or getting through the barrier between body and air that provided the magical effect would itself provide resistance to penetration and likely to a much higher degree.

With regard to storing weight there is a lower limit, but with compounding there is almost no upper limit to the amount of density. 1/1000th of a persons weight would be 1/10th of a lb to 3/10th's of a lb approximately for an adult, and there would be diminishing returns with regard to how much difference in density the change in weight makes. A compounder could store that same 1/1,000 of their weight for 1 minute and allomantically turn that into 1,000 x that same weight for 1 minute in less than 7 minutes of burning and storing weight.

Wax must have had some benefit in durability when he tapped virtually his entire store to smash through a floor without any injuries. Normally ferings don't tap anywhere near their limit in such a short time. Sazed used his total storage over an extended period but didn't come anywhere near what his one time mass could have been. That is what leads me to believe that the limit to density and thus durability potentially provided by Iron tapping a compounder could achieve have yet to be observed because of the limit to the amount of weight a regular Iron fering can actually store. That limit is restricted to the persons own weight, percent they are storing, and the length of time they are storing it. By definition with any amount of stored weight that can provide the seed for the acquisition of a near infinite amount of weight for almost a limitless amount of time. With that much available to tap the rules for damage resistance that are evident to ferings would be thrown out the window. The safe limit to instant density would be the surface strength of what they are standing on and the strength of what is available to spread the weight out on through pulls. The same Iron compounder would have virtually no limit while in free fall. Under the right circumstances they themselves could exert gravity as well as being able to pull on metals.

On a related topic one of the limits to steel compounders would be the escape velocity of the planet they are on. Once they reach escape velocity their feet will certainly leave the ground.

[Starwatcher]

At this point, I think the discussion is into the realm of being too speculative for the Coppermind and would probably be better suited for another forum.

[BenduLuke]

3 minutes ago, Starwatcher said:

At this point, I think the discussion is into the realm of being too speculative for the Coppermind and would probably be better suited for another forum.

20 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. It's a weird scenario, we have a book that says there is some density increase but also a WoB basically saying it's negligible. Overall, I don't read what we have as establishing that that an iron Twinborn could significantly increase their density. It seems possible to me that, whatever density change there is just sort of caps out at a certain point, after which you're in danger of killing yourself by tapping too much iron (kind of like you risk killing yourself by running too fast if you're a steel Twinborn). Ultimately, my general feeling right now is that, based on the information we currently have, this is the most we can say without being too speculative for the Coppermind.

An average of twice as much density caused by twice as much weight may not increase everything the same amount. it could cause a greater density increase in the bones for support with lesser density in the tissues and finally very little density in the skin with no density increase in the water that is most of the body. So over all the density increase would seem negligible.

What we do have to establish Iron twinborn density are the rules for compounding in general. Miles a Gold compounder had nearly unlimited health, and Steel compounding has been stated to provide nearly unlimited speed, so we can expect Iron to provide nearly unlimited density/mass/weight and the potential consequences of that given that strength both structural and muscle scales to handle it.

What other forum would you recommend?

[Starwatcher]

I'm not sure, I'm not really active in the fandom outside of the Coppermind; I guess depending on how much of the cosmere you've read and how much you want to involve other books, the Mistborn, Cosmere, or RoW magic subforums, or the corresponding channels on the 17S Discord could all be appropriate (like I said, I'm not really active outside of Coppermind work though, so there may be something I'm not aware of here). Anyways, glancing through the rest of the metal articles on the Coppermind, it looks like we only really mention Compounding when there's a specific WoB on the subject, which doesn't appear to be the case here; especially given the handwaving that's already going on with Feruchemical iron and the tension between Sazed's comment about density compared to Brandon's comment in the AoL annotations, the precise nature of iron Compounding just seems too speculative for the Coppermind.

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, Starwatcher said:

I'm not sure, I'm not really active in the fandom outside of the Coppermind; I guess depending on how much of the cosmere you've read and how much you want to involve other books, the Mistborn, Cosmere, or RoW magic subforums, or the corresponding channels on the 17S Discord could all be appropriate (like I said, I'm not really active outside of Coppermind work though, so there may be something I'm not aware of here). Anyways, glancing through the rest of the metal articles on the Coppermind, it looks like we only really mention Compounding when there's a specific WoB on the subject, which doesn't appear to be the case here; especially given the handwaving that's already going on with Feruchemical iron and the tension between Sazed's comment about density compared to Brandon's comment in the AoL annotations, the precise nature of iron Compounding just seems too speculative for the Coppermind.

This is also the only forum that I am not only active in but enrolled in. I thought you meant another part of this forum.

Since the stated mechanics of compounding are that a person can store an attribute in their metalmind then burn that metalmind to amplify the attribute through allomancy and store that amplified amount back into a metalmind that can be burned to again multiply the attribute we can project the massive density increase that Iron compounding would produce if it follows the stated compounding rules. By necessity that means it will affect penetration, but that affect has not been observed yet because of the limits regular ferring and feruchemists have had up to this point. Weight seems like it has been treated as a mildly useful attribute to store by characters in mistborn so far which would explain why it has not been explored to the limit. If density increases proportionally to densities in the body that would also explain why tissues seem to have no appreciable change in overall density and thus resistance to piercing force until reaching much greater extremes of weight. It would also explain the hand waving and seeming contradictions.

[Chaos]

On 3/6/2021 at 2:20 PM, BenduLuke said:

This is also the only forum that I am not only active in but enrolled in. I thought you meant another part of this forum.

Since the stated mechanics of compounding are that a person can store an attribute in their metalmind then burn that metalmind to amplify the attribute through allomancy and store that amplified amount back into a metalmind that can be burned to again multiply the attribute we can project the massive density increase that Iron compounding would produce if it follows the stated compounding rules. By necessity that means it will affect penetration, but that affect has not been observed yet because of the limits regular ferring and feruchemists have had up to this point. Weight seems like it has been treated as a mildly useful attribute to store by characters in mistborn so far which would explain why it has not been explored to the limit. If density increases proportionally to densities in the body that would also explain why tissues seem to have no appreciable change in overall density and thus resistance to piercing force until reaching much greater extremes of weight. It would also explain the hand waving and seeming contradictions.

I agree this is plausible, but also, Compounding can get weird, and we shouldn't add speculation (even well reasoned) to the Coppermind. I think this is especially important with Feruchemical iron, which has lots of handwavium as it is. We've been culling away a lot of speculation that has crept up over the years on the Coppermind.

[BenduLuke]

On 3/8/2021 at 5:44 PM, Chaos said:

I agree this is plausible, but also, Compounding can get weird, and we shouldn't add speculation (even well reasoned) to the Coppermind. I think this is especially important with Feruchemical iron, which has lots of handwavium as it is. We've been culling away a lot of speculation that has crept up over the years on the Coppermind.

It really isn't speculation that if you increase weight in the same volume without increasing gravity you increase density and mass and eventually with near unlimited weight available you would become more resistant to damage just like Wax when he crashed through a floor or totaled an entire building using his weight. Wax took thousands of hours to have access to that kind of weight, but an Iron compounder could store it in minutes to a few short hours. Truthfully it also appears to me that an Iron compounder could potentially be stronger and more durable than a Pewter compounder though perhaps not pound for pound.

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

It really isn't speculation that if you increase weight in the same volume without increasing gravity you increase density and mass and eventually with near unlimited weight available you would become more resistant to damage just like Wax when he crashed through a floor or totaled an entire building using his weight. Wax took thousands of hours to have access to that kind of weight, but an Iron compounder could store it in minutes to a few short hours. Truthfully it also appears to me that an Iron compounder could potentially be stronger and more durable than a Pewter compounder though perhaps not pound for pound.

Sentences like these are more appropriate for forum posts than in wiki articles, I am afraid. I don't disagree with the analysis, but the wiki is not the place for such extrapolation.

[BenduLuke]

19 hours ago, Chaos said:

Sentences like these are more appropriate for forum posts than in wiki articles, I am afraid. I don't disagree with the analysis, but the wiki is not the place for such extrapolation.

Thanks for the feed back.