Who will win the contest? Predicting the back half.

[Could Be Fire]

So we're ten days in the universe away from the big headliner event, with Odium/Dalinar. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone thinks the outcome will be because whatever it will be will set the stage for the back half. No matter what Odium is re-bound, but we still have 5 more books of Roshar plot left. The way I see it there are three options.

1) Dalinar wins. Odium goes back to Braize and the coalition regains Alethkar/Herdaz. In this universe, I see the main conflict of the back half being the question of what will happen to the Singers and what the role of the Knights Radiant is now that the Odium is re-bound. Sanderson could use this to highlight that not all problems are caused by the literal personification of hatred sitting on the system and force the Singers and the Humans to confront the atrocities they've wrought in the past. 

2) Odium wins. Fused forces keep their control over most of Roshar and Odium gains Dalinar's soul. This is a much darker world for our protagonists but I think it sets up a more focused back half. It becomes much more crucial that they come to terms the fused and to find a way to find some sort of compromise for everyone who lives on Roshar. I think it could try really neatly into what we've seen with the growth and recovery with some other Heralds and Unmade and the 'sympatheic' fused like Leshwi/Rabonial. 

3) Chaos reigns. Someone (Cultivation, Hoid, Kelsier, the Stick, etc.) figures out how to break the contest and a totally unexpected result happens. This is the most unpredictable and unlikely ending but there is some basis for it. Both Odium and the Heralds figure out multiple 'loopholes' in the Oathpact, so even bondsmith/Honor deals aren't infallible. 

What's everyone else guess/thoughts/ideas? 

[+Child of Hodor]

14 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

So we're ten days in the universe away from the big headliner event, with Odium/Dalinar. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone thinks the outcome will be because whatever it will be will set the stage for the back half. No matter what Odium is re-bound, but we still have 5 more books of Roshar plot left. The way I see it there are three options.

1) Dalinar wins. Odium goes back to Braize and the coalition regains Alethkar/Herdaz. In this universe, I see the main conflict of the back half being the question of what will happen to the Singers and what the role of the Knights Radiant is now that the Odium is re-bound. Sanderson could use this to highlight that not all problems are caused by the literal personification of hatred sitting on the system and force the Singers and the Humans to confront the atrocities they've wrought in the past. 

2) Odium wins. Fused forces keep their control over most of Roshar and Odium gains Dalinar's soul. This is a much darker world for our protagonists but I think it sets up a more focused back half. It becomes much more crucial that they come to terms the fused and to find a way to find some sort of compromise for everyone who lives on Roshar. I think it could try really neatly into what we've seen with the growth and recovery with some other Heralds and Unmade and the 'sympatheic' fused like Leshwi/Rabonial. 

3) Chaos reigns. Someone (Cultivation, Hoid, Kelsier, the Stick, etc.) figures out how to break the contest and a totally unexpected result happens. This is the most unpredictable and unlikely ending but there is some basis for it. Both Odium and the Heralds figure out multiple 'loopholes' in the Oathpact, so even bondsmith/Honor deals aren't infallible. 

What's everyone else guess/thoughts/ideas? 

I'm for kind of option 1 of the contest itself, but option 3 swoops in the aftermath of the contest. Whenever Brandon has characters tell us we "This is what's gonna happen" I assume it won't happen. So I don't think either end state that Rayse and Dalinar hashed out will be where we leave things at the end of book 5.

I think Dalinar repairs Honor and Taravangian dies. Leaving the power of Odium without a vessel. Cultivation and Dalinar both have Connection to Odium and they tear the Shard apart and both Ascend to their piece of it.

Cultivation has Connection to Odium because she took a piece of Dalinar, who Nightwatcher called "Son of Odium", saying it would be useful. Also, she's been angry about her lover being murdered by Rayse for a couple thousand years. She's been deep in her feelings which would establish some Connection to Odium. Dalinar has Connection because was groomed to be Odium's Champion. In RoW Rayse brags about not needing the Everstorm to appear to Dalinar now because their connection has deepened. 

End state is Cultivation + Part Odium and Dalinar as Honor + Part Odium as the two gods. Less overtly dangerous than Odium by itself, but both total wildcards. Singers and Humans live in the cities they've claimed. 

Part of why I like this is we have to learn about Voidbinding somehow, we've learned nothing so far. If Odium becomes a part of the two Shards powering the Knights Radiant then that changes the magic system fundamentally. That doesn't mean the existing Radiant spren all become "enlightened", but now Odium is a part of their "parents" they may be more open to it.  There are sure to be other weird effects on the magic of Roshar from the nature of the Shards changing. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'm for kind of option 1 of the contest itself, but option 3 swoops in the aftermath of the contest. Whenever Brandon has characters tell us we "This is what's gonna happen" I assume it won't happen. So I don't think either end state that Rayse and Dalinar hashed out will be where we leave things at the end of book 5.

I think Dalinar repairs Honor and Taravangian dies. Leaving the power of Odium without a vessel. Cultivation and Dalinar both have Connection to Odium and they tear the Shard apart and both Ascend to their piece of it.

Cultivation has Connection to Odium because she took a piece of Dalinar, who Nightwatcher called "Son of Odium", saying it would be useful. Also, she's been angry about her lover being murdered by Rayse for a couple thousand years. She's been deep in her feelings which would establish some Connection to Odium. Dalinar has Connection because was groomed to be Odium's Champion. In RoW Rayse brags about not needing the Everstorm to appear to Dalinar now because their connection has deepened. 

End state is Cultivation + Part Odium and Dalinar as Honor + Part Odium as the two gods. Less overtly dangerous than Odium by itself, but both total wildcards. Singers and Humans live in the cities they've claimed. 

Part of why I like this is we have to learn about Voidbinding somehow, we've learned nothing so far. If Odium becomes a part of the two Shards powering the Knights Radiant then that changes the magic system fundamentally. That doesn't mean the existing Radiant spren all become "enlightened", but now Odium is a part of their "parents" they may be more open to it.  There are sure to be other weird effects on the magic of Roshar from the nature of the Shards changing. 

I don’t think Odium’s Vessel is dying a second time in two books. That smacks of lazy plotting and Brandon is too good a plotter for that.

[+Bzhydack]

17 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

So we're ten days in the universe away from the big headliner event, with Odium/Dalinar. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone thinks the outcome will be because whatever it will be will set the stage for the back half. No matter what Odium is re-bound, but we still have 5 more books of Roshar plot left. The way I see it there are three options.

1) Dalinar wins. Odium goes back to Braize and the coalition regains Alethkar/Herdaz. In this universe, I see the main conflict of the back half being the question of what will happen to the Singers and what the role of the Knights Radiant is now that the Odium is re-bound. Sanderson could use this to highlight that not all problems are caused by the literal personification of hatred sitting on the system and force the Singers and the Humans to confront the atrocities they've wrought in the past. 

2) Odium wins. Fused forces keep their control over most of Roshar and Odium gains Dalinar's soul. This is a much darker world for our protagonists but I think it sets up a more focused back half. It becomes much more crucial that they come to terms the fused and to find a way to find some sort of compromise for everyone who lives on Roshar. I think it could try really neatly into what we've seen with the growth and recovery with some other Heralds and Unmade and the 'sympatheic' fused like Leshwi/Rabonial. 

3) Chaos reigns. Someone (Cultivation, Hoid, Kelsier, the Stick, etc.) figures out how to break the contest and a totally unexpected result happens. This is the most unpredictable and unlikely ending but there is some basis for it. Both Odium and the Heralds figure out multiple 'loopholes' in the Oathpact, so even bondsmith/Honor deals aren't infallible. 

What's everyone else guess/thoughts/ideas? 

I think Option 1. Few reasons.

1. Its only 10 days left to Contest, and is many fields to cover.

2. We know Taravangian set his previous vassals on positions where they can still continue fighting and causing problems without him. This is also true for Singers, Iriali and also Shin. All of them dont need Odium in person to continue fighting.

3. Ishar. I think he will be most important in this book. No way to know what he can do and what he wants. With his Connection manipulation he can dovery odd things.

4. Shinovar. Whole plot with Unmade and stoneshamans with great knowledge. Also, this would be Szeth/Dalinar book. This mean this is where real action would be set.

[Quick Ben]

21 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

So we're ten days in the universe away from the big headliner event, with Odium/Dalinar. I'm really interested in hearing what everyone thinks the outcome will be because whatever it will be will set the stage for the back half. No matter what Odium is re-bound, but we still have 5 more books of Roshar plot left. The way I see it there are three options.

1) Dalinar wins. Odium goes back to Braize and the coalition regains Alethkar/Herdaz. In this universe, I see the main conflict of the back half being the question of what will happen to the Singers and what the role of the Knights Radiant is now that the Odium is re-bound. Sanderson could use this to highlight that not all problems are caused by the literal personification of hatred sitting on the system and force the Singers and the Humans to confront the atrocities they've wrought in the past. 

I really hope this doesn't happen, doesn't make for the most interesting plot for back 5 and 5 books would really drag on

21 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

2) Odium wins. Fused forces keep their control over most of Roshar and Odium gains Dalinar's soul. This is a much darker world for our protagonists but I think it sets up a more focused back half. It becomes much more crucial that they come to terms the fused and to find a way to find some sort of compromise for everyone who lives on Roshar. I think it could try really neatly into what we've seen with the growth and recovery with some other Heralds and Unmade and the 'sympatheic' fused like Leshwi/Rabonial. 

This would be my preferred option, except Odium would launch an offensive against the rest of the cosmere in my version of this option.

21 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

3) Chaos reigns. Someone (Cultivation, Hoid, Kelsier, the Stick, etc.) figures out how to break the contest and a totally unexpected result happens. This is the most unpredictable and unlikely ending but there is some basis for it. Both Odium and the Heralds figure out multiple 'loopholes' in the Oathpact, so even bondsmith/Honor deals aren't infallible. 

What's everyone else guess/thoughts/ideas? 

I think the contest will most likely end in a draw or it being rendered null and void. What happens then im not sure.

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Also, she's been angry about her lover being murdered by Rayse for a couple thousand years. She's been deep in her feelings which would establish some Connection to Odium.

Im of the opinion cultivation either helped Odium murder Honour, or helped Honour trick Odium into thinking he killed him but was actually suicide

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think Odium’s Vessel is dying a second time in two books. That smacks of lazy plotting and Brandon is too good a plotter for that.

I tend to agree with this as well. Plus The plot of Taravangian "saving" the cosmere is too good not to do, esp since appears cultivation is playing puppeteer.

[apepi]

I think no matter what, some time during either this next book or the other back half, Odium is going to to be able to leave the system. Because narratively we have to see that happen I think, no matter who wins or loses.

[Nesh]

Something I've been considering lately: What happens if the contest somehow ends in a draw?  They only set conditions for what happens if either side wins.

[Could Be Fire]

9 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Something I've been considering lately: What happens if the contest somehow ends in a draw?  They only set conditions for what happens if either side wins.

This a solid point! I'm partial to option 3 type endings myself just because it's more interesting to see something totally unexpected. 

[apepi]

1 hour ago, Nesh said:

Something I've been considering lately: What happens if the contest somehow ends in a draw?  They only set conditions for what happens if either side wins.

My current thought is if it ends in a draw, nothing of the current changes. Odium is stuck and the war still goes on.

[Nesh]

3 minutes ago, apepi said:

My current thought is if it ends in a draw, nothing of the current changes. Odium is stuck and the war still goes on.

Well I assume the war  will go on in any event.

[apepi]

1 minute ago, Nesh said:

Well I assume the war  will go on in any event.

I mean, the deal is supposed to stop the war I thought?

[Nesh]

Just now, apepi said:

I mean, the deal is supposed to stop the war I thought?

Yeah, but the back half,  There's still going to be conflict.  So at best this is a band-aid.

[apepi]

18 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Yeah, but the back half,  There's still going to be conflict.  So at best this is a band-aid.

I mean, we know that their will be conflict...but with who?

[Could Be Fire]

On 3/6/2021 at 0:07 PM, apepi said:

I mean, the deal is supposed to stop the war I thought?

Odium has agreed to be bound and ceasing hostilities no matter who wins. I think the "catch" is that the Singer's themselves have a major reason to continue hostilities even without Odium's direct support. Like Odium is exacerbating the war, but he's the not sole cause. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Could Be Fire

[Display Name]

Teravangian knows where Rayse went wrong so the contest is going to result in numbers 2 or 3.The death rattle "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw." might be predicting it.  Dalinar refusing to fight may count as a forfeit and we get number 2 or neither Dalinor nor the baby killing the other disqualifies both and we get number 3.  The contest will be part 1 of the book with parts 4-5 about the fallout.

I think Taravangian is Passion and not Odium.  Where it ends with "And now, Taravangian was going to save them all." was misdirection to make the reader think he's Odium, but 'them all' includes Cultivation,Honor, and Roshar itself.  Book 5 will end with Dalinar ascended as Honor and Passion investing in Roshar bringing Roshar back in balance with the 3 moons and the ancient singer gods "of spren, stone, and wind".  Singers and humans will have their own kingdoms and squabble amongst themselves.  One of the last scenes will be Dalinar and Taravangian chatting by a hearth.

The last 5 books will be about the Dawnshards.  It'll involve whatever Ishar and Kalak are up to, Sja-anat's ultimate goal, and the off-world groups like the Ghostbloods and 17th Shard.

[Frustration]

40 minutes ago, Display Name said:

I think Taravangian is Passion and not Odium. 

That is what Rayse would have you believe, but not only is talk of Passion not exclusive to him, he is still Odium

Spoiler

Valhalla

Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they would.

Valhalla

Would any of them not talk about it that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Excellent, good questions.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?>

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Frustration

[hskeeter]

Ok IMHO it will be Odium/Taravangian who wins, but this will happen before half-way through the book.  Then, the second half will be the plots of Cultivation to kill Odium in revenge for Honor's death.  Keep in mind the 3 Spren that are Bondsmith Spren are Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling! One of whom is bonded with Dalinar, the second with Navani.  Seeing the plots of Cultivation now?  Stormfather/Dalinar are associated with Honor, Nightwatcher with Cultivation, and Sibling/Navani with both.  Also, keep in mind that Taravangian is only Odium's vessel, and over time his personality will fade.  Add in the fact that Odium has now killed 4 Shards as well as Andonalsium and there is a lot of higher powers who want to see Odium splintered. Also, keep in mind the story is about the people involved and how they interact with the higher powers.  Meanwhile, never forget who Hoid/Wit is; one who held a shard and put it down.  He is a major player in the Cosmere and (unless I missed my interpretation badly) he is on the side of the people (all of them).. 

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

Andonalsium

All of the original vessels killed Adonalsium, it wasn't just Rayse, also Odium didn't exist before the Shattering

[Bejarden]

20 minutes ago, hskeeter said:Meanwhile, never forget who Hoid/Wit is; one who held a shard and put it down.  He is a major player in the Cosmere and (unless I missed my interpretation badly) he is on the side of the people (all of them).. 

I don’t think he ever held a Shard only a Dawnshard 

I don’t think he is on any side his grudge seems to be on Rayse alone not the power he would probably help other Vessels

He’ll probably just hightail it out of there once he realizes what has happened 

[hskeeter]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

All of the original vessels killed Adonalsium, it wasn't just Rayse, also Odium didn't exist before the Shattering

I stand corrected!  Thank you kind sir.