Adhesion is of both Honor and Odium

[+JesterLavorre]

I posted about this in the comments for the Surgebinding Shardcast episode, but I wanted to elaborate on it more. 

 

So, Adhesion, according to the Ars Arcanum, is the surge of pressure and vacuum. While it is more broadly the surge of connection, this is at least its physical embodiment.

Now, we have Odium being described by Syl:

Spoiler

“Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go.”

Odium is described as a Void, a vacuum, drawing in emotion. Through pressure. It seems like this description of Odium is very reminiscent of Adhesion, supposedly Honor’s truest surge.

We know all the other nine surges are a combination of two shards. Honor and Cultivation. What if Adhesion is also a combination of two shards. But not Honor and Cultivation. Honor and Odium.

Additionally, this effect is reflected in Raysium. According to Navani talking about Raysium in fused weapon stealing Stormlight:

Quote

“My scholars think they must be employing an Investiture differential. If a gemstone is full of Stormlight—or, I assume, Voidlight—and that Light is removed quickly, it creates a pressure differential (or a kind of vacuum) in the gemstone.”

Again, a pressure differential being a key factor in Odium magics. Raysium is an investiture pressure vacuum.

 

Anyway, this could be pure coincidence, but it does open up some interesting questions, particularly about Voidbinding. Specifically because some of the abilities of Voidbinders seem linked to Connection, an ability of Adhesion.

[apepi]

Your post reminded of something that I remember from the cosmere reddit thread:

Here it talks about the Dor(DnD) and how they are under pressure. With Odium being the one who put and splintered them and'trapped them in the cognitive realm, then he must have been the one who put them under pressure as well. So this might give your theory more credit.

That gemstone pressure tidbit is a good catch, I did not know that happened.

I have been thinking about this page for a while sense it was introduced to me, were the two shards in a gemstone? Or would them just being on the cognitive realm make them be pressured somehow?

But with your tidbit here, either Odium maybe could have used his surge in conjunction with a gemstone to hold them in place where they are?

[+JesterLavorre]

25 minutes ago, apepi said:

But with your tidbit here, either Odium maybe could have used his surge in conjunction with a gemstone to hold them in place where they are?

I don’t even know if he would need a gemstone. Once he got them to the cognitive realm, it’s possible the power just had no way to get back out into the spiritual.

The mention with pressure and the Dor is a really good catch, though. I’m not sure what it could mean, but it’s very interesting.

[theTruthshaper]

I don't think this is in the right direction at all. By what basis would you call Gravitation a surge of Honor and Cultivation? What about Illumination?

[+JesterLavorre]

38 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

By what basis would you call Gravitation a surge of Honor and Cultivation? What about Illumination?

Raboniel tells Venli all the nine surges other than Adhesion are of both Honor and Cultivation:

Quote

“Adhesion is not a true Surge, but a lie that was presented to us as one. True Surges are of both Honor and Cultivation—Cultivation for life, Honor to make the Surge into natural law. Things must fall to the ground, so they created Surges to make it happen.”

 

[Bejarden]

4 hours ago, JesterLavorre said:

Raboniel tells Venli all the nine surges other than Adhesion are of both Honor and Cultivation:

 

If she’s wrong about adhesions she can be wrong about the others

[+JesterLavorre]

45 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If she’s wrong about adhesions she can be wrong about the others

That’s true, though it is at least a cultural thing for the singers that surges are associated with two shards each. I’m not super set on this idea. It’s just an interesting thematic connection I noticed and wanted to talk about a bit. I’m definitely open to different interpretations.

[mathiau]

On one hand

Quote

Questioner

I've had this question burning deep inside me since I finished RoW, is there a truest Surge of Odium? My headcanon for now is Transportation.

Brandon Sanderson

Hey! So, I'll deal with this eventually in the books, so it's a RAFO for now! But do keep in mind that the Surges on Roshar, as they're understood now, are mostly Honor/Cultivation.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 9, 2020)

On the other hand

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Feruchemy is the "balance" between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a "balance" magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. 

Argent (paraphrased)

Like Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

The Surges that are not Honour's and Cultivation's true Surge are obviously the balance magic between H and C but what is the balance system between H and O and between C and O? I think the pure Surges are changing to become Honour-Odium and Cultivation-Odium hybrids, this would explain the atium-like effect Kaladin showed in WoR and Ishar in RoW, it would also explain how that have happened:

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"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

Drawer 30-20, a particularly small emerald

(Oathbringer, epigraph of chapter 84)

Glys and Renarin are something new, Voidbinding Radiants didn't exists at the time that emerald was recorded, and yet we already had a Radiant able to use Foresight.

(Before you answer that Illumination makes no sense as Cultivation's pure Surge, remember we have no proof Foresight is not a part of V-Progression or a V-Illumination V-Progression hybrid that could also be obtained as a S-Illumination V-Progression hybrid)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, apepi said:

Here it talks about the Dor(DnD) and how they are under pressure. With Odium being the one who put and splintered them and'trapped them in the cognitive realm, then he must have been the one who put them under pressure as well. So this might give your theory more credit.

We know that the Dor is an incredibly dense essentially plasma storm (it's not called the Expanse of Densities for nothing!), so I'm inclined to think it's just a natural consequence of shoving such an immense amount of Investiture into one place, but interesting catch nonetheless.

[Frustration]

This is intresting, esspecially considering Honor and Odium are often considred for the Unite type Dawnshard.

[Serack]

On 3/3/2021 at 8:53 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We know that the Dor is an incredibly dense essentially plasma storm (it's not called the Expanse of Densities for nothing!), so I'm inclined to think it's just a natural consequence of shoving such an immense amount of Investiture into one place, but interesting catch nonetheless.

I think the stuff the OP brings up goes a long way to support the idea that Odium was particularly well equipped to shove such an immense amount of investiture into the cognitive realm as if it were an investiture pressure vessel.  

[mathiau]

21 minutes ago, Serack said:

I think the stuff the OP brings up goes a long way to support the idea that Odium was particularly well equipped to shove such an immense amount of investiture into the cognitive realm as if it were an investiture pressure vessel.  

It seems like that is what happen whenever a Shard loses his Vessel without finding a new one

Quote

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

[apepi]

It seems more to that to me. Odium purposely trapped them in the cognitive realm. I haven't even heard that Honor was in anywhere 'trapped' the same way, on the cognitive realm.

[Serack]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:53 PM, mathiau said:

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013)

Jeeze, he said that nearly 3 years before Secret History released.  Did anyone figure out he took up the shard in the interim?

I'm looking at WoB now and found this one too:

Quote

FirstRainbowRose

I just wanted to add in my two cents and say it was absolutely brilliant... and I think I'm starting to be able to breath again (crying that much hurts)...I also really loved that there's an "cameo" for Kelsier at the end... that made me really happy to see.

Brandon Sanderson

Glad you liked the book, Rainbow!

You may want to note that the moment Preservation dropped out and let the last of his consciousness die, someone was waiting in the Cognitive Realm to seize the power and hold on for a short period until Vin could take it up more fully. You'll find him using it to whisper in moments of great stress in the book, to one person in specific in two places. (I'll bet someone on here has already found them.)

He never could just let things well enough alone....

Footnote: The person Brandon refers to having been whispered to is Spook.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

I wish I had a timeline of theories for what happened to the power between Leras dying and Vin ascending

[mathiau]

35 minutes ago, Serack said:

Jeeze, he said that nearly 3 years before Secret History released.  Did anyone figure out he took up the shard in the interim?

Don't know but he said that 2 and ha half years ago and people still think F-Nicrosil works like F-Iron

Quote

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

Edited March 8, 2021 by mathiau

[LewsTherinTelescope]

35 minutes ago, Serack said:

Jeeze, he said that nearly 3 years before Secret History released.  Did anyone figure out he took up the shard in the interim?

Brandon was super open about it after HoA. That WoB you have linked where he says that Kel held the power between Leras and Vin was from a Q&A the day after release. Not much time for competing theories to form.

27 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Don't know but he said that 2 and ha half years ago and people still don't think F-Nicrosil works like F-Iron

(Assuming you mean F-copper, not F-iron) Because we know the F-nicrosil in a medallion does not work like normal F-nicrosil does.

Quote

Calderis

Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? 

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

Additionally, because we see F-nicrosil being tapped at varying rates and start to run out with the Bands.

Edited March 8, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+JesterLavorre]

Another thing I just thought of: we know there was a Bondsmith on Ashyn. But they worshipped Odium there, not Honor. Could they have used Odium bondsmithing on Ashyn? 

[+Crossen]

What if Ba-Ado-Mishram is somewhat like a bondsmith spren but of both Odium and Honor? We know that the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram messed up bonds between spren and humans and with the bonds of the singers so this would make sense.

This could also be the cause of the Recreance. Once everyone figured out that Ba-Ado-Mishram was of both Honor and Odium they felt that as a betrayal by Honor and thought that capturing her would end all bonds on both sides, thus ending the war since no one would get anymore special powers. The knew that capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram would end the bonds and surgebinding, but not exactly what would happen. They probably thought that the spren would just be unbinded, and not become deadeyes.

This could also explain why Nale et al were killing those who tried to bind to spren. They thought that it would start the wars all over again. There is no eternal war without surges.

Also as a side note, I always felt that it was weird how there was so much emphasis on the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram has two hyphens in her name. I don't know where this emphasis came from, but maybe it has something to do with Ba-Ado-Mishram (possibly) being of two shards.

[+JesterLavorre]

3 hours ago, CROSSENuUP said:

What if Ba-Ado-Mishram is somewhat like a bondsmith spren but of both Odium and Honor? We know that the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram messed up bonds between spren and humans and with the bonds of the singers so this would make sense.

This could also be the cause of the Recreance. Once everyone figured out that Ba-Ado-Mishram was of both Honor and Odium they felt that as a betrayal by Honor and thought that capturing her would end all bonds on both sides, thus ending the war since no one would get anymore special powers. The knew that capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram would end the bonds and surgebinding, but not exactly what would happen. They probably thought that the spren would just be unbinded, and not become deadeyes.

I definitely like this theory. Even without adhesion being of the two shards, I still think this is possible. They talk about it a bit on the Ba-Ado-Mishram Shardcast. Basically, I think BaM could be a Bondsmith spren like the Sibling, but unmade. Like Raboniel was trying to do.

Also, Voidbinding is said to originate from the unmade,, and if BaM has something to do with voidish adhesion, that would make perfect sense with the name of “Voidbinding.”

[apepi]

45 minutes ago, JesterLavorre said:

I definitely like this theory. Even without adhesion being of the two shards, I still think this is possible. They talk about it a bit on the Ba-Ado-Mishram Shardcast. Basically, I think BaM could be a Bondsmith spren like the Sibling, but unmade. Like Raboniel was trying to do.

Also, Voidbinding is said to originate from the unmade,, and if BaM has something to do with voidish adhesion, that would make perfect sense with the name of “Voidbinding.”

Here's my wacky theory, she(?) used to be here before Honor/Cult, then they coopted her(mad her their own with their own investiture), then Odium did the same thing as them, making her his.

[StormFather!]

So, Brandon said that all nine Unmade together would be Odium’s Godsren. I can’t find the quote right now.