Jofwu

The tower, the crown, and the spear

29 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

but I've never been happy with how he could have anything to do with a "tower" or a "crown".

I mean, he does literally get a cloak with a tower and crown on it from Dalinar after the Battle of the Tower. But it's possible it could be more. I dunno, I'll admit I have a bit of a gut bias against "special boy Kaladin does special things because he's special", and it doesn't to me feel in line with his arc at the end of RoW, so perhaps I'm not always giving these kinds of things a fair shot :lol:

(I do try to, but there's definitely an emotion-based reluctance at times that I don't always properly ignore.)

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@Jofwu So if he's king of the Radiants why does it specify Tower, and Crown?

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, he does literally get a cloak with a tower and crown on it from Dalinar after the Battle of the Tower. But it's possible it could be more. I dunno, I'll admit I have a bit of a gut bias against "special boy Kaladin does special things because he's special", and it doesn't to me feel in line with his arc at the end of RoW, so perhaps I'm not always giving these kinds of things a fair shot :lol:

(I do try to, but there's definitely an emotion-based reluctance at times that I don't always properly ignore.)

I don't think it's unreasonable to associate the epigraph with what happened at the end of TWoK. I mean, heck, it could be just saying "Kaladin needs to accept he's a Radiant and pick up a spear to save Dalinar." All stuff that happened.

The point of my long-winded rambling post :rolleyes: is really to draw the connection between the epigraph and Kaladin's chapter icon. And if there is a connection there, I don't think anything we've seen so far is good enough. Partly because Brandon is saying we don't know enough about the icon yet. Partly because I think the connection between the the Battle of the Tower and the icon is very weak. I mean, if the spear had the Kholin glyphpair on it or something, that would be one thing. A single tower glyph and an actual crown feels different to me.

I DO feel like it's in line with Kaladin's arc. I can't imagine Kaladin continuing to hold spears on the battlefield after book 5... But I also can't imagine him settling down for a quiet life as a mental health therapist. Shouldering him with the burden of leadership feels right, and I think he'd be good at it.

This is incredibly flimsy evidence I'm presenting. It's more a "what if" than some theory based on strong evidence. So I don't think your emotional reluctance is invalid at all, compared to my argument. :lol:

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

@Jofwu So if he's king of the Radiants why does it specify Tower, and Crown?

Tower as a symbol of the Radiants. Crown as a symbol of leadership.

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23 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Partly because Brandon is saying we don't know enough about the icon yet.

Fair enough, I'm very curious about it as well.

24 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

But I also can't imagine him settling down for a quiet life as a mental health therapist.

Honestly, I think that's exactly what he needs, at least for a while: a bit of time without any massive weight on his shoulders, lives depending on him, or hard decisions to make. He's started the path to getting over some of his demons, but I feel he's by no means done with them, and I don't think the burden of leading the Radiants is something he's in a good place for quite yet (though a few years down the line, he could be a good candidate, just not during the short time period Book 5 will probably cover).

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2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I don't know how much of this is my own original thoughts at this point... I'm sure some of it is coming from others, but I've forgotten who exactly, and where. In any case, I've referenced these ideas a few times in the last few months so I wanted to write them out in one place.

Behold, the great mystery that is Kaladin's chapter icon:

kaladin.png

We know that this symbol isn't without meaning. ALL of the character chapter icons show something related to the character that's not particular hard to figure it out. (well, most of them--Taln's still has a bit of mystery to it as well) Obviously with Kaladin's we have some spears, but there's got to be more to it than that. Brandon has essentially confirmed that there's something of significance in it that we don't know about yet:

So let's break it down. What are we looking at?

It's got 5 spears. Four down below and a fifth sticking out further. The fifth one has some kind of banner tied to it, with a glyph that's somewhat obscured. There's also some kind of circular ring shape. Not quite a crescent. Lastly are some sketchy lines all parallel to the spears. It's hard to tell what these are meant to depict.

Perhaps the lower four spears are meant to be indicative of Bridge Four? Seems like a reasonable notion, but not much more to say on that.

It's important to note that we don't know what the glyph is. We've tried to decipher it in the glyphs threads... But even knowing the glyph phonemes doesn't make "translating" glyphs very easy, and this one is hard to get a clear idea of.

I could also swear that I've asked Isaac about the ring shape, I think at JordanCon 2018... Unfortunately, if I'm not imagining this then I never bothered to record it in Arcanum... I was interested in the idea because I wondered if perhaps it was depicting an eclipse. This would be odd, as Roshar's moons work in a way such that eclipses aren't a thing that happens there. But I recall Isaac confirming that it is NOT depicting an eclipse. Take it or leave it, I guess.

I didn't give much more thought about this icon, after working through some of these questions in the past... Until after Rhythm of War.

Somebody (I think on Reddit) was asking about the glyph here, and they wondered if it might depict a tower. And I think that's a pretty reasonable guess. To be honest, I had wondered in the past if it might be some kind of spinoff of Dalinar's own tower-shaped glyph. We see the Kholin glyph looks fairly similar to the one here, and the "khokh" of Dalinar's glyphpair is depicted as a tower.

kholin.png     2021-03-02 11_28_53-File_Khokh.svg - The Coppermind - 17th Shard — Mozilla Firefox.png

It would make sense that Kaladin might adopt some kind of Kholin glyph eventually, after he essentially joined Dalinar's camp at the end of TWoK. He was granted some land in Alethkar by the Kholins, in the Crownlands. Maybe there's a connection though.

In any case, I do have to agree that the glyph looks somewhat tower-like. But Kholin/Dalinar connections aside, why would Kaladin pick up a tower-shaped glyph? Especially in the current setting of the books, where a tower has pretty strong ties to THE tower, Urithiru?

Now let me dig up the TWoK Chapter 53 epigraph that I've referenced in this post title:

I was never quite sure what to make of this epigraph. The "tower and crown" are part of Dalinar's glyphpair, so it always seemed suggestive of him to me. But then the spear doesn't fit at all. Many people take "spear" as a strong indicator of Kaladin, but I've never been happy with how he could have anything to do with a "tower" or a "crown". The whole "fallen title" bit could easily just refer to the Knights Radiant in general, or perhaps some role within their number.

But then I got to thinking about what might happen in Stormlight Archive book 5...

Many people think Dalinar will fall to Odium. I don't--some arguments here, but that's beside the point. Many people think Dalinar will reunite the pieces of Honor and Ascend, or something similar to this--I'm betting this. Many people think Dalinar will simply die. But NOT many people seem to think Dalinar will come out of book 5... the same person that he is now. And this makes me wonder who will take up his position as the King of Urithiru, and the leader of the Radiants.

Now, I've seen some people argue (reasonably) that the Radiants don't need a monarch. It's not entirely clear what their leadership structure looked like in the past. I think it's possible that they will continue on with some kind of... representative democracy type leadership? But I think they are much more likely to pick out a primary leader to unite under. This is what seems to have naturally happened with Dalinar, and I don't see why they wouldn't want it to continue that way.

So... if Dalinar is out of the picture, for one reason or another, who becomes the boss?

Navani is the obvious first choice! She's bonded to Urithiru itself, after all. She's a queen. She's used to leadership. She's a bondsmith. Perfect.... But I'm just not convinced. I honestly don't really get the sense that Navani would WANT this job. She has finally embraced her scholar side. She finally has the opportunity to be the engineer that she has always wanted to be. She's knocking that job out of the park I bet. And it's a REALLY important job too! I just... can't believe she would be very jazzed to get pulled back into the world of politics.

So who else do you pick?

Jasnah isn't a terrible candidate, but she's already Queen of Alethkar so there's a conflict of interest here. The same one that pushed Dalinar out the door, practically. And I kind of get the sense that she doesn't want the authority of Queen of the Radiants either.

And.... That's pretty much the end of the list I can come up with...

Except for Kaladin. Kaladin who has single-handedly saved EVERYONE multiple times. Kaladin who is famous and respected by pretty much everyone. Kaladin who has been on the front lines of the war as well as at the top with kings and queens. Kaladin who easily has practically no political ties that bring a conflict of interest. Kaladin who was one of the first new Radiants. Kaladin who has remarkable leadership skills. Kaladin who has broad support among the lower class darkeyes of Vorin nations and no political baggage with others.

Kaladin who is scarred from his time on the front lines in innumerable ways and who REALLY DOES need to step back a bit from the battlefield after this one last mission to wrap up book 5.

Kaladin who is the de facto leader of the Windrunners--the order associated with Jezrien, who was a king and the leader of the Heralds.

I think Kaladin is perfect for the job!

So back to the Death Rattle...kaladin.png

What could the fallen title refer to? Not entirely clear, but perhaps it refer to the leader of the Radiants? I'm not sure if it's "fallen" as some reference back to the Recreance and the Radiants of the past or if it's just referring to Dalinar dropping that title by one means or another. The associated of the spear to Kaladin is easy of course. The tower and the crown could simply refer to Urithiru and his role as leader/king of the Radiants.

Could it be that this is precisely what we see depicted in Kaladin's chapter icon? Again, the spears are obvious. The banner bearing the glyph of what seems to be a tower--Urithiru, a symbol of the Knights Radiant. And the circular shape around the edge, representing a simple crown.

Sadeas needs a new highprince, might be a modified version or what amaram made the glyph ?

Spears pointing inward could be indicitive of future torture on braize mayhaps ?

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3 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I DO feel like it's in line with Kaladin's arc. I can't imagine Kaladin continuing to hold spears on the battlefield after book 5... But I also can't imagine him settling down for a quiet life as a mental health therapist. Shouldering him with the burden of leadership feels right, and I think he'd be good at it.

The mental health definitely feels like more of a set up and character flavor then anything else. We'll likely see some form of established mental health facilities in the back 5, but Kaladin will think of himself as a patron of these facilities rather than it being his actual job. 

To me, it's pretty likely that the mental health arc Kaladin has gone through is going to be the linchpin in bringing the heralds back. At least on the non-magical side of things.

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21 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

We'll likely see some form of established mental health facilities in the back 5, but Kaladin will think of himself as a patron of these facilities rather than it being his actual job.

And what better way to do that than as head of the Radiants. ;)

21 hours ago, feruchemicalrockband said:

To me, it's pretty likely that the mental health arc Kaladin has gone through is going to be the linchpin in bringing the heralds back. At least on the non-magical side of things.

I hadn't considered that. That's a really interesting idea.

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Kaladin would be the natural option to succeed Dalinar as leader of the Radiants. Jezrien was essentially their leader in the past, and he was a Darkeyed Windrunner as well. Kaladin fits the bill

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This maybe overthinking it, but doesn't kaladin's symbol look a little like steel script?

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On 05/03/2021 at 11:26 PM, Lesser spren said:

This maybe overthinking it, but doesn't kaladin's symbol look a little like steel script?

Quote

Questioner

This [Kaladin chapter icon] looks a lot like the Allomantic metal symbols? Is that completely coincidence?

Brandon Sanderson

That's coincidence. There is something weird about that picture, but it's not that.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

It is overthinking it, but others have certainly seen the resemblance

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I've always really liked the theory but wouldn't the line of succession go through the Kholins? One of them is the queen of Alethkar and the other one is one of the Bondsmiths, of the spren of Urithiru, their HQ no less. While the point about them probably not wanting the job makes sense, I don't think Kaladin wants it either, I also feel like it goes against his character development in RoW of letting go of his burdens a bit and doing what he can. I don't think Navani or Jasnah would reject the position either, especially not in the dire event that Dalinar falls, they'll naturally just pick it up where he left it off, they've both done this before for Gavilar & Elhokar. Also, could it be that this Death Rattle has already been fulfilled with Kaladin rescuing the Kholins and bringing the resurgence of the Radiants?

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I've had this idea simmering for a while that the tower, crown and spear might somehow apply to each time Kaladin swears a Radiant Ideal, but I can't seem to make the crown part fit for the fourth Ideal:

2nd Ideal

Tower - the plateau where they're fighting

Crown - Dalinar and Adolin are highprinces

Spear - what Kaladin picks up to fight with

3rd Ideal

Tower - the Pinnacle where Kal faces off against Moash and Graves is tower-like

Crown - Elhokar

Spear - Syl becomes a Shardspear

4th Ideal

Tower - Urithiru

Crown - ??? this is where the theory falls apart a bit. In the other two it's a reference to the person Kal is saving, but I can't think of any way in which crown might refer to Lirin (unless there's something about him we don't know); maybe it's something to do with Kal's slave brands finally healing or his Shardplate helm? both seem like a stretch

Spear - while diving off the tower to save Lirin, Kal is described as "piercing the blackness like a spear, a lance of light"

 

It would work rather nicely if, upon swearing the fifth Ideal, Kal does in fact become the King of Urithiru.

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1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Crown - ??? this is where the theory falls apart a bit. In the other two it's a reference to the person Kal is saving, but I can't think of any way in which crown might refer to Lirin (unless there's something about him we don't know); maybe it's something to do with Kal's slave brands finally healing or his Shardplate helm? both seem like a stretch

Pinnacle is another word for crown, and he jumps off the pinnicle of Urithiru....a stretch but would work for your theory.

Guess could be Dalinar excepting the Oath rather then the stormfather too ?

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Consider that, perhaps this particular death rattle may have already been fulfilled? 

By the way I love this theory and I hope it comes true, that would be dope, but also hear me out on this.

I think a lot of us parse that Rattle as, "He must pick it up, the fallen title: the tower, the crown, and the spear!" Like the tower, crown, and spear describe the fallen title he has to pick up. But what if instead, it was:

"He must pick it up! The fallen title, the tower, the crown, and the spear!" Four separate items. Let's go through it in RoW

The Tower of Urithitru falls to the Fused, just after Kaladin gave up the spear. He picks the spear back up, then works to take the tower back. Two out of four. The other two are a little more shaky, but it could be said that when Urithiru came back under Navani, it came back under the Crown. Similarly, it could be said that Kaladin picked up the "fallen title" of stormblessed, that he'd always struggled with, and hated, but finally accepted with his Fourth Oath.

I suppose the immediate comeback is: "Then why does it say he has to pick it up, and not them up." To which I would say... idk, I might be way off, but perhaps its still worth considering?

I really do like the idea of Kaladin accepting a role of leadership, doing what he's always done and lifting people up and helping them survive, and showing up in the Back 5 in the place where Dalinar once stood.

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So to me the Glyph on the Banner does not look to me to be the tower glyph.  Too many differences and the illustrator is very good at his job.  The Crown part being the semi-circular line, I might buy that.  The spears are the interesting part.  We can see there are at least 4 spears, two above the and two below the semi-circular shape.  What do the other lines represent?  More spears?  Part of the crown?  Or do they combine with the semi-circular line to show the walls of a tower or cliff.  Too many unknowns.

I agree with the idea that the rattle has most likely been fulfilled by Kaladin in RoW.   The title of Leader; Protector of the Tower, Crown of the Windrunners, the Spear of Bridge 4,  

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Am I the only one who thinks that the glyph on the cape looks like the Tension glyph?

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Well, reading the theory, I think this would be epic.

On 3/2/2021 at 11:12 AM, Jofwu said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"

One note on this that I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread. Kaladin has "set aside" the spear at the end of RoW. As Jofwu quoted, he need to take time away from the battlefield. During RoW itself, the spear turned into a symbol of Kaladin's life as a soldier on the front lines, and he went through a lot of turmoil when he "picked it up" to defend Urithiru.

So when I read this death rattle (in the context of Kaladin taking Dalinar's place), it sounds like picking up "the fallen title" may come with some sort of combat role. I'm not happy about that, because Kaladin needs his rest and therapy, but I can visualize a cool Sanderlanch where Dalinar dies, becomes a Fused, or Ascends, and Kaladin has to take his place in the middle of a battle and turn the tide.

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11 hours ago, hskeeter said:

So to me the Glyph on the Banner does not look to me to be the tower glyph.  Too many differences and the illustrator is very good at his job.

Which glyph are you referring to, Dalinar's? We don't have a glyph for "tower" and I didn't mean to say that the glyph on the banner matches another known glyph. Just that it appears to be somewhat of a tower-like shape.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the glyph on the cape looks like the Tension glyph?

Doesn't appear so, to me. It's got a line in the middle, doesn't have Tension's "y" shaped thing phonemes. K-phonemes flipped around.

1 hour ago, Lightdancer said:

"the fallen title" may come with some sort of combat role.

Yeah, I definitely don't think that would be right for his character. Dalinar isn't really on the front lines any more in RoW, and he's trying to pull back even more. So I don't imagine the role of "King of the Radiants" would or should be a combat role.

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On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

It's got 5 spears. Four down below and a fifth sticking out further. The fifth one has some kind of banner tied to it, with a glyph that's somewhat obscured. There's also some kind of circular ring shape. Not quite a crescent. Lastly are some sketchy lines all parallel to the spears. It's hard to tell what these are meant to depict.

If we go for the obvious, the central bannered spear is Kaladin, the four spears is Bridge Four and the lines are more spears that join later. Kaladin is a leader of fighters.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

It's important to note that we don't know what the glyph is. We've tried to decipher it in the glyphs threads... But even knowing the glyph phonemes doesn't make "translating" glyphs very easy, and this one is hard to get a clear idea of.

Well, I hate to spoil any fun, but there being two glyphs, mirrored on a central axis, isn't the simplest explanation that those are the glyphs for "storm" and "bless" ?

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

I could also swear that I've asked Isaac about the ring shape, I think at JordanCon 2018... Unfortunately, if I'm not imagining this then I never bothered to record it in Arcanum... I was interested in the idea because I wondered if perhaps it was depicting an eclipse. This would be odd, as Roshar's moons work in a way such that eclipses aren't a thing that happens there. But I recall Isaac confirming that it is NOT depicting an eclipse. Take it or leave it, I guess.

The sun perhaps? Or a symbolic representation of unity? Thrusting weapons into the disk of the sun to have them backlit is a part of traditional depictions.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

I was never quite sure what to make of this epigraph. The "tower and crown" are part of Dalinar's glyphpair, so it always seemed suggestive of him to me. But then the spear doesn't fit at all. Many people take "spear" as a strong indicator of Kaladin, but I've never been happy with how he could have anything to do with a "tower" or a "crown". The whole "fallen title" bit could easily just refer to the Knights Radiant in general, or perhaps some role within their number.

Why do you assume that this refers to one person? The tower does really imply a Bondsmith, but which one?
The crown - well, there are many crowned people: Gavilar, Elhokar, Jasnah, Rayse ...

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

But then I got to thinking about what might happen in Stormlight Archive book 5...

Many people think Dalinar will fall to Odium. I don't--some arguments here, but that's beside the point. Many people think Dalinar will reunite the pieces of Honor and Ascend, or something similar to this--I'm betting this. Many people think Dalinar will simply die. But NOT many people seem to think Dalinar will come out of book 5... the same person that he is now. And this makes me wonder who will take up his position as the King of Urithiru, and the leader of the Radiants.

The Knights Radiant and hereditary monarchy don't really mix. Their leader must be Radiant, likely a Bondsmith. Being one of them means bonding a spren that you cannot just pass on as inheritance.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

So... if Dalinar is out of the picture, for one reason or another, who becomes the boss?

Navani by default.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

Navani is the obvious first choice! She's bonded to Urithiru itself, after all. She's a queen. She's used to leadership. She's a bondsmith. Perfect.... But I'm just not convinced. I honestly don't really get the sense that Navani would WANT this job. She has finally embraced her scholar side. She finally has the opportunity to be the engineer that she has always wanted to be. She's knocking that job out of the park I bet. And it's a REALLY important job too! I just... can't believe she would be very jazzed to get pulled back into the world of politics.

This is not really about what you want. If it were she wouldn't be a Bondsmith. To put it bluntly, she has sworn the oath. It comes with obligations, which supercede personal preferences.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

So who else do you pick?

Well, the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher would pick. The link between Bondsmiths and leadership looks strong. The whole story about the Stormfather's mission depends on it.

On 2.3.2021 at 6:12 PM, Jofwu said:

Kaladin who is the de facto leader of the Windrunners--the order associated with Jezrien, who was a king and the leader of the Heralds.

And there is the problem. He is a Windrunner and putting a Windrunner in a position of absolute leadership is problematic.

 

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, I hate to spoil any fun, but there being two glyphs, mirrored on a central axis, isn't the simplest explanation that those are the glyphs for "storm" and "bless" ?

No, that's not how glyphs work. It's a single glyph, representing a single idea. (plus we know the glyph for "storm")

For the rest I just ultimately disagree that Navani made any kind of commitment to be "second in line" for leader of the Radiants. Further, I don't think the Bondsmiths necessarily had (or have to have) a monopoly on the position. There are ways to be a uniter without being a monarch.

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9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Being one of them means bonding a spren that you cannot just pass on as inheritance.

Apparently spren bonds actually can and have been Passed:

Quote

the_archduke (paraphrased)

Could a Knight Radiant pass their Nahel bond the way seons can be passed in Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Theoretically possible and in fact has happened in previous eras.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

but I assume they do have to uphold the Ideals still.

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What if the five spears are a reference to this passage just before Kaladin heads to the climactic fight sequence in RoW:

Quote

He couldn’t help feeling that this was it. The last time he’d wear the uniform, his final act as a member of Bridge Four. One way or another, he had to move on from the life he’d been clinging to and the simple squad of soldiers who had formed the heart of that life.

All these people believed in a version of him who had already died. Highmarshal Kaladin Stormblessed. The valiant soldier, leader of the Windrunners, stalwart and unwavering. Like Kal the innocent youth, Squadleader Kaladin the soldier in Amaram’s army, and Kaladin the slave … Highmarshal Stormblessed had passed. Kaladin had become someone new, someone who could not measure up to the legend.

But will all these people believing in him – falling in behind him, whispering with hope and anticipation – perhaps he could resurrect Stormblessed for one last battle.

What if the spears represent:

  1. Kal the innocent youth (who first picked up the spear)
  2. Squadleader Kaladin from Amaram's army (who mastered the spear)
  3. Kaladin the slave (who rediscovered the spear training Bridge 4 in the chasms and picked it up again to save Dalinar and become a Radiant)
  4. Highmarshal Stormblessed; and
  5. Whoever Kal is now following the events of RoW or will become in Book 5 (the person who picks up the fallen title?)

 

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On 29.4.2021 at 5:29 PM, Jofwu said:

No, that's not how glyphs work. It's a single glyph, representing a single idea. (plus we know the glyph for "storm")

For the rest I just ultimately disagree that Navani made any kind of commitment to be "second in line" for leader of the Radiants. Further, I don't think the Bondsmiths necessarily had (or have to have) a monopoly on the position. There are ways to be a uniter without being a monarch.

My apologies, you are right. It cannot be that easy. Though I must ask, how sure are we that what we get in English as "Stormblessed" is a compound in Alethi?

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On 4/29/2021 at 10:21 PM, mdross81 said:

What if the five spears are a reference to this passage just before Kaladin heads to the climactic fight sequence in RoW:

What if the spears represent:

  1. Kal the innocent youth (who first picked up the spear)
  2. Squadleader Kaladin from Amaram's army (who mastered the spear)
  3. Kaladin the slave (who rediscovered the spear training Bridge 4 in the chasms and picked it up again to save Dalinar and become a Radiant)
  4. Highmarshal Stormblessed; and
  5. Whoever Kal is now following the events of RoW or will become in Book 5 (the person who picks up the fallen title?)

 

This is so creative oh my god! I can totally see this being the case! I do wonder what those dotted lines are :o 

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