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19 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Steel does conduct electricity (beta radiation) though not as efficiently as some metals, with the added benefit of working as a metal mind. With properly advanced tech a person could take advantage of that. Steel is also one of the best shields against radiation.

While steel does conduct electricity, that does not translate to shielding well against beta radiation. For comparison, speed of electrons due to electric current is ~10^-6 m/s, whereas electrons in beta radiation are generally relativistic with speed of order ~10^6-10^7 m/s, so even if the steel was under voltage, the resulting change in speed would be negligible. Also steel shields well against gamma radiation, not beta (although of course sufficiently thick layer would be still provide protection, however that might make it impractically heavy).

19 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Using deuterium and tritium would be more likely to lead to fusion and yield lithium another metal. The beryllium mirror perhaps on the chest is the key to the crushing force. A lurcher can only pull and must be pulling against something to ignite the fusion. Pulling the H^2 or H^3 against the beryllium provides the pressure from the other side and it being a mirror it will reflect and focus the light generated by the fusion. Beryllium is also very resistant to heat and may at least in part be replenished by the fusion since the fusion of H & Li or perhaps H^2/3 might produce Be which has just been pressed into the Be mirror. The mirror would need to be concave. A Be mirror would likely reflect neutrons as well though many would be consumed in producing more Be.

So if I understand you correctly, the I-compounder would have beryllium mirror/target on their chest and they would pull the hydrogen/deuterium/tritium against that to create sufficient pressure to ignite fusion? So the process would be tap weight (to increase strenght of pulls, and root yourself), pull fuel to the chest, and hope that the fusion explosion ignited at best centimeters from you will not kill you? There are other issues with this, for example with using deuterium or tritium as a fuel is that one product of the fusion are high energy neutrons, which are very difficult to shield against. Also while the beryllium is heat resistant, I strongly doubt it could withstand being the source of pressure for the fusion without also fusing, or if the fusion started short distance from it, even without melting (i know they are using beryllium in ITER, but there you have at least few kgs of beryllium meant to withstand 10-100 miligrams of plasma, not the full brunt of it), eg. specific heat of berrylium is 1925 J/(Kg*K), so to heat 1 kg by 1 K you need to provide ~2kJ, however hydrogen gas has specific heat 14kJ/(kg*K), so the berryllium would heat up faster than the hydrogen would cool down -> it would most likely melt then evaporate and join in the fusion, so the mirror would be immediately completely destroyed. Even with concave chamber, it would need to happen incredibly fast, so that the gas does not escape on the edges, but this might be resolved by doing multiple pulls at once. While Be can be used as neutron reflector, the mechanism is different from mirrors, what it does is that the incoming neutrons are scattered on Be atoms, and so now can go in any direction. Practical result is that incident neutron has ~50-50 chance of being reflected, but the rest still passes through, albeit now slower.

19 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The coppermind I shared with you says that in reality it is density that is increased, but Wax never stored enough weight for his density to change appreciably much with regard to piercing threats. His metal minds also probably didn't have the capacity to store enough to make a noticeable difference in his density. Remember he could only get out what he could put in 1 to 1, but an Iron compounder who puts in 1 kg can burn that and produce 10 kg to store maybe more if they flare. 10 burns and stores 100 to 1,000 to 10,000 until the armor capacity is reached. Still even with his limited Iron ability his pushes were above average.

While the coppermind says that density is stored, it cites Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum for that, however at least in my copy of Alloy of Law there is no mention of density, only of storing weight to effectively decrease/increase weight, so to me it seems that there is a mistake in coppermind. You should also note that the very same coppermind you shared actually says that despite in increase in density, this has no effect on penetration, quoting the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692) I quoted as well. Sanderson specifically says the following:

"At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all. "

In between the WoB above, and the fact that Ars Arcanum cited in the article actually does not mention density, it seems to me your assumption about increased density imparting increased resistance is not correct, and without this assumption the I-compounder has no way of surviving the explosion. I do admit that just basic definition of density =mass/volume should effectively make it that storing weight -> storing density, but in this magic system it does not seem to play out that way.

 

To address the reverse lashings cannon, it is true that reverse lashing are more effective on items not touching ground, however this limitation is easily overcome by putting the cannon on Navani's floating platforms. When it comes to strength of r-lashing, force required to tear a human head off is estimated to be around 5000 N, human head weighs 5 kg, and since Parshendi have carapace, we can take these as a good lower bound on estimation. So to tear a human head off you would need around 100 r-lashings (assuming 10m/s^2), and thanks to Pursuer we know Windrunner can do this (in fact probably more than this, accounting for carapace of Parshendi). So with a 10m long cannon you would need just 2 windrunners to shoot almost anything at speed 200 m/s (assuming enough stormlight, I also assume that having r-lashing act on heavier object would cause it to deplete faster). This cannon would be especially fun in space, as having a long cannon run the length of a ship, ~100m would make for a devastating weapon (although at that point they would most likely have better ways of achieving this goal).

Also with r-lashing requiring to maintain contact, the way it is written in RoW ("Kaladin turned and strode towards Heavenly Ones, as the Pursuer's head ripped from his body and slammed to the floor.") seems to me that it lingers for a bit even after breaking contact, although it is not exactly clear in this passage.

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11 hours ago, therunner said:

While steel does conduct electricity, that does not translate to shielding well against beta radiation. For comparison, speed of electrons due to electric current is ~10^-6 m/s, whereas electrons in beta radiation are generally relativistic with speed of order ~10^6-10^7 m/s, so even if the steel was under voltage, the resulting change in speed would be negligible. Also steel shields well against gamma radiation, not beta (although of course sufficiently thick layer would be still provide protection, however that might make it impractically heavy).

So if I understand you correctly, the I-compounder would have beryllium mirror/target on their chest and they would pull the hydrogen/deuterium/tritium against that to create sufficient pressure to ignite fusion? So the process would be tap weight (to increase strenght of pulls, and root yourself), pull fuel to the chest, and hope that the fusion explosion ignited at best centimeters from you will not kill you? There are other issues with this, for example with using deuterium or tritium as a fuel is that one product of the fusion are high energy neutrons, which are very difficult to shield against. Also while the beryllium is heat resistant, I strongly doubt it could withstand being the source of pressure for the fusion without also fusing, or if the fusion started short distance from it, even without melting (i know they are using beryllium in ITER, but there you have at least few kgs of beryllium meant to withstand 10-100 miligrams of plasma, not the full brunt of it), eg. specific heat of berrylium is 1925 J/(Kg*K), so to heat 1 kg by 1 K you need to provide ~2kJ, however hydrogen gas has specific heat 14kJ/(kg*K), so the berryllium would heat up faster than the hydrogen would cool down -> it would most likely melt then evaporate and join in the fusion, so the mirror would be immediately completely destroyed. Even with concave chamber, it would need to happen incredibly fast, so that the gas does not escape on the edges, but this might be resolved by doing multiple pulls at once. While Be can be used as neutron reflector, the mechanism is different from mirrors, what it does is that the incoming neutrons are scattered on Be atoms, and so now can go in any direction. Practical result is that incident neutron has ~50-50 chance of being reflected, but the rest still passes through, albeit now slower.

While the coppermind says that density is stored, it cites Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum for that, however at least in my copy of Alloy of Law there is no mention of density, only of storing weight to effectively decrease/increase weight, so to me it seems that there is a mistake in coppermind. You should also note that the very same coppermind you shared actually says that despite in increase in density, this has no effect on penetration, quoting the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692) I quoted as well. Sanderson specifically says the following:

"At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all. "

In between the WoB above, and the fact that Ars Arcanum cited in the article actually does not mention density, it seems to me your assumption about increased density imparting increased resistance is not correct, and without this assumption the I-compounder has no way of surviving the explosion. I do admit that just basic definition of density =mass/volume should effectively make it that storing weight -> storing density, but in this magic system it does not seem to play out that way.

 

To address the reverse lashings cannon, it is true that reverse lashing are more effective on items not touching ground, however this limitation is easily overcome by putting the cannon on Navani's floating platforms. When it comes to strength of r-lashing, force required to tear a human head off is estimated to be around 5000 N, human head weighs 5 kg, and since Parshendi have carapace, we can take these as a good lower bound on estimation. So to tear a human head off you would need around 100 r-lashings (assuming 10m/s^2), and thanks to Pursuer we know Windrunner can do this (in fact probably more than this, accounting for carapace of Parshendi). So with a 10m long cannon you would need just 2 windrunners to shoot almost anything at speed 200 m/s (assuming enough stormlight, I also assume that having r-lashing act on heavier object would cause it to deplete faster). This cannon would be especially fun in space, as having a long cannon run the length of a ship, ~100m would make for a devastating weapon (although at that point they would most likely have better ways of achieving this goal).

Also with r-lashing requiring to maintain contact, the way it is written in RoW ("Kaladin turned and strode towards Heavenly Ones, as the Pursuer's head ripped from his body and slammed to the floor.") seems to me that it lingers for a bit even after breaking contact, although it is not exactly clear in this passage.

All good points. The coppermind definition was changed today, but from my perspective the change causes violations in laws of conservation of momentum. The 2 people we know of who used Iron-F were limited to what weight they had to store and when they tapped the weight they lost some to conversion due to rapid tapping. For them the change in density and for most ferrings would not be appreciable or have an appreciable affect on durability beyond enabling them to move around normally. When dealing with any compounding the scale of investiture involved would produce appreciable results not seen in normal Ferrings and given that comounders are very rare the result may not have been observed yet. The coppermind does not address the affects of Iron compounding like articles for some metals do.

yes some of the Be could be fused, but this idea was meant to be on the fringe of possibility, not necessarily workable now in our universe or the Cosmere and maybe it goes to far beyond the probable.

A Dustbinger or Skybreaker of sufficient skill and power with the right materials could potentially use Division to ignite an atomic explosion, but could either survive that use of Division? If so how?

A Nicrosil ferring paired with most metals has the potential for incredible power. Paired with steel they could feruchemically tap steel pushes. With Bend alloy they could tap time jumps increasing the speed of the jump, radius of the jump, the length of the jump, and perhaps even anchor the bubble on themselves to carry with them. They could tap any one allomantic power feruchemically. Strength, senses, time, emotions. Only aluminum and duralumin would likely seem to have no tappable effect. Pewter would offer multiple physical abilities that could be used feruchemically. A nicrosil pairing could be one of the most powerful twinborns around.

The cannon would still work better on the ground, but its best use would be to target things that are not on the ground. Kaladin still had his feet on the ground, but Pursuer was more vulnerable because he was suspended above the ground by adhesion. (both the adhesion and the R-Lashing were very powerful) Of course if the investiture of R-Lashings does last a while after contact then R-Lashing guided missiles would open up some very dangerous weapons.

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Maybe not all that extreme, but I feel like Skybreakers could use Division to turn rock into sand then Gravitation to make it 'fly', therefore creating sandstorms.

Might not be too bad seeing they deal with highstorms every few days, but we know from the Everstorm they were very much relying on the storms coming regularly and from a specific direction.

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On 02/03/2021 at 11:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

Give us examples of what you think those projectile fabrials might be capable of? I would love to hear more on that.

Anything a crossbow can. Including long distance

On 03/03/2021 at 11:06 AM, therunner said:

And in spirit of speculation, Windrunners might be able to create simple "guns/railguns" as follows: Take a long tube, put ammunition in one end, and then coat the other with a bunch of strong reverse lashings that will attract the ammunition (as reverse lashing seem to just act on object the users wants it to). When the ammunition leaves the tube, cancel the reverse lashing (this would the difficult part to time right, unless they found a way to automate it). The good thing about lashing is that they directly impart acceleration, so to accelerate heavier object you "just" need more stormlight. As an example, to accelerate arbitrary object to ~100 m/s  (assuming enough stormlight) you would need about 50m long tube and put down 10 r-lashing ( or 5 m long tube and 100 r-lashings, longer tubes are better for timing the end, and I assume strength of one lashing to be ~10m/s^2).

A lashing is roughly 6,84m.s^-2, Roshar's gravity is 70% that of Earth, so you're looking at 73meter with 10 lashings

Maybe they could use gravitation fabrials as an alternative to conjoined fabrials that require less manpower but more Stormlight? They could also use them as propulsers for long-distance bombs

Also, the Windrunner are able to manipulate pressure maybe there's a blowgun-like weapon to create?

On 04/03/2021 at 9:33 AM, therunner said:

These rounds are just evil, and tactically brilliant. Just one potential issue, do we know if even chemical compounds containing aluminum inhibits invested healing? I would think that yes they still do, but if not then having aluminum ignite would not provide the desired effect.

We know gold healing will heal around the aluminium instead of ejecting the bullet

On 05/03/2021 at 0:11 AM, BenduLuke said:

10 G's is the limit highly trained pilots can withstand for a very short length of time (seconds).

Absolutely not. There is no limit to the strength of gravity someone can withstand, what makes pilots pass out is the fact that their blood is not accelerated at the same rate as their neurons but with gravity everything is accelerated at the same rate

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32 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Absolutely not. There is no limit to the strength of gravity someone can withstand, what makes pilots pass out is the fact that their blood is not accelerated at the same rate as their neurons but with gravity everything is accelerated at the same rate

Well, there is, the amount of gravity at which their skeletal structure is incapable of supporting them.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well, there is, the amount of gravity at which their skeletal structure is incapable of supporting them.

Ok, there is no limit to the strength of gravity someone can withstand while in free fall, which is the state flying Windrunners are. Yes if you're on the ground you're blood will pool in your feet and have trouble irrigating your head but if you're in free fall your body won't see any difference with zero gravity.

Just now, Brgst13 said:

Elsecalling could possibly allow targeted nuclear strikes from the Cognitive realm, where an Elsecaller could reach out from the Cognitive realm and Soulcast a critical mass of rock into plutonium, causing a runaway reaction.

You're assuming Elscallers can Soulcast things in Physical Realm from the Cognitive Realm which is not sure. Suicide nuclear bombing are definitely possible though

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2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

You're assuming Elscallers can Soulcast things in Physical Realm from the Cognitive Realm which is not sure. Suicide nuclear bombing are definitely possible though

In the cut Jasnah Chapter in WoR she soulcasts from the CR

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

In the cut Jasnah Chapter in WoR she soulcasts from the CR

Oh, do you have a link to this cut chapter? Do we know if it's an Elsecaller only thing (their Resonance maybe?) or if Lightweavers can do it too?

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19 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Oh, do you have a link to this cut chapter? Do we know if it's an Elsecaller only thing (their Resonance maybe?) or if Lightweavers can do it too?

here

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A WARNING FROM BRANDON: This scene gives major spoilers for Words of Radiance. Please don’t continue unless you’ve finished that book. This is a very short sequence of Jasnah’s backstory I’ve been reading at signings. It’s not a polished draft. I often read very rough (and potentially continuity-error filled) sequences at signings as a special treat to people who attend. This scene is even rougher than most—first draft, and shouldn’t be taken as canon quite yet, as I haven’t firmed up or fixed all the terminology or Shadesmar interactions.

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah Kholin opened her eyes and gasped, fingers rigid, clawing at the obsidian ground. A knife in her chest! She could feel it grinding on her bones as it slipped between two ribs, glancing off her sternum. She spasmed, rolling into a ball, quivering.

“Jasnah.”

No. She could not lay prone. She fought to her knees, but then found herself raking her fingers across the ground, trembling, heaving breaths in and out. Moving—even breathing—was perversely difficult, not because of pain or incapacity, but because of the overwhelming sense of tension. It made her shake, made her made her want to run, fight, do anything she could to not die.

She shouted, stumbling to her feet, and spun about, hand on her chest.

Wet blood. Her blood. A dress cut with a single knife hole.

“Jasnah.” A figure all in black. A landscape of obsidian ground reflecting a bizarre sky and a sun that did not change locations.

She darted her head from side to side, taking in everything but registering very little of it.

Storms. She could sense that knife again, sliding into her flesh. She felt that same helplessness, that same panic—emotions which had accompanied the knife’s fall. She remembered the darkness consuming her, her hearing fading, the end.

She closed her eyes and shivered, trying to banish the memories. Yet the effort of trying to do so only seemed to solidify them.

She knew that she would remember dying for as long as it took the darkness to claim her again.

“You did well,” Ivory said. “Well, Jasnah.”

“The knife,” she whispered, opening her eyes, angry at how her voice trembled, “the knife was unexpected.” She breathed in and out, trying to calm herself. That puffed out the last of her Stormlight, which she had drawn in at the last possible moment, then used like a lash to pull herself into this place. It had kept her alive, healed her.

Ivory said that while a person held enough Stormlight, only a crushing blow to the head itself would kill. She’d believed him, but storms that hadn’t made it any easier to lay there before the knife. Who would have expected them to stab her? Shouldn’t they have assumed that a blow to the head would be enough to—

Wait. Shallan!

“We have to go back,” Jasnah said, spinning. “Ivory, where is the junction?”

“It is not.”

She was able to locate the ship with ease. In Shadesmar, land and sea were reversed, so she stood on solid ground—but in the Physical Realm, Shallan and the sailors would still be in their ship. They manifest here as lights, similar to candle flames, and Jasnah thought of them as the representation of the person’s soul—despite Ivory telling her that was an extreme simplification.

They spotted the air around her, standing up on deck. That solitary flame would be Shallan herself. Many smaller lights darted beneath the ground—faintly visible through the obsidian. Fish and other sea life.

Nerves still taut, Jasnah searched around for the junction: a faint warping of the air that marked the place of her passage into Shadesmar. She could use it return to the ship, to…

One of the lights up above winked out.

Jasnah froze. “They’re being executed. Ivory! The junction.”

“A junction is not, Jasnah,” Ivory repeated. He stood with hands clasped behind his back, wearing a sharp—yet somehow alien—suit, all black. Here in Shadesmar, it was easier to distinguish the mother-of-pearl sheen to his skin, like the colors made by oil on water.

“Not?” Jasnah said, trying to parse his meaning. She’d missed his explanation the first time. Despite their years together, his language constructions still baffled her on occasion. “But there’s always a junction…”

“Only when a piece of you is there,” Ivory said. “Today, that is not. You are here, Jasnah. I am…sorry.”

“You brought me all the way into Shadesmar,” she asked. “Now?

He bowed his head.

For years she’d been trying to get him to bring her into his world. Though she could peek into Shadesmar on her own—and even slip one foot in, so to speak—entering fully required Ivory’s help. How had it happened? The academic wanted to record her experiences and tease out the process, so that perhaps she could replicate it. She’d used Stormlight, hadn’t she? An outpouring of it, thrust into Shadesmar. A lash which had pulling her, like gravitation from a distant place, unseen…

Memories of what happened mixed with the terror of those last minutes. She shoved both emotions and memories aside. How could she help the people on the ship? Jasnah stepped up to the light, hovering before her, lifting a hand to cup one. Shallan, she assumed, though she could not be certain. Ivory said that there wasn’t always a direct correlation between objects their manifestation in Shadesmar.

She couldn’t touch the soul before her, not completely. Its natural power repelled her hand, as if she were trying to push two pieces of magnetized stone against one another.

A sudden screech broke Shadesmar’s silence.

Jasnah jumped, spinning. It sounded a trumping beast, only overlaid by the sounds of glass breaking. The terrible noise drove a shiver up her spine. It sounded like it had come from someplace nearby.

Ivory gasped. He leaped forward, grabbing Jasnah by the arm. “We must go.”

“What is that?” Jasnah asked.

“Grinder,” Ivory said. “You call them painspren.”

“Painspren are harmless.”

“On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore. Come.” He yanked on her arm.

“Wait.”

The ship’s crew would die because of her. Storms! She had not thought that the Ghostbloods would be so bold. But what to do? She felt like a child here, newborn. Years of study had told her so little. Could she do anything to those souls above her? She couldn’t even distinguish which were the assassins and which were the crew.

The screech sounded again, coming closer. Jasnah looked up, growing tense. This place was so alien, with ridges and mountains of pure black obsidian, a landscape that was perpetually dim. Small beads of glass rolled about her feet—representations of inanimate objects in the physical realm.

Perhaps…

She fished among them, and these she could identify immediately by touch. Three plates from the galley, one bead each. A trunk holding clothing.

Several of her books.

Her hand hesitated. Oh storms, this was a disaster. Why hadn’t she prepared better? Her contingency plan in case of an assassination attempt had been to play dead, using faint amounts of stormlight from gems sewn into her hem to stay alive. But she’d foolishly expected assassins to appear in the night, strike her down, then flee. She’d not prepared for a mutiny, an assassination led by a member of the crew.

They would murder everyone on board.

“Jasnah!” Ivory said, sounding more desperate. “We must not be in this place! Emotions from the ship draw them!”

She dropped the spheres representing her books and ran her fingers through the other spheres, seeking… there. Ropes—the bonds tying the sailors as they were executed. She found a group of them and seized the spheres.

She drew in the last of her Stormlight, a few gemstones’ worth. So little.

The landscape reacted immediately. Beads on the ground nearby shivered and rolled toward her, seeking the stormlight. The calls of the painspren intensified. It was even closer now. Ivory breathed in sharply, and high above, several long ribbons of smoke descended out of the clouds and began to circle about her.

Stormlight was precious here. It was power, currency, even—perhaps—life. Without it, she’d be defenseless.

“Can I use this Light to return?” she asked him.

“Here?” He shook his head. “No. We must find a stable junction. Honor’s Perpendicularity, perhaps, though it is very distant. But Jasnah, the grinders will soon be!”

Jasnah gripped the beads in her hand.

“You,” she command, “will change.”

“I am a rope,” one of them said. “I am—”

You will change.

The ropes shivered, transforming—one by one—into smoke in the physical realm.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

A lashing is roughly 6,84m.s^-2, Roshar's gravity is 70% that of Earth, so you're looking at 73meter with 10 lashings

Thanks for this correction, I knew Roshar has weaker gravity but when writing I did not bother to look it up, my fault. Although I would argue that my calculation from the Pursuer incident still holds, so Windrunner on fourth oath should be capable of creating r-lashing imparting acceleration of ~1000 m/s^2 .

I also wonder, would lashings on a different planet be imparting acceleration based on that planets acceleration on surface? I tried to look for some WoBs but I was not able to find anything.

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1 minute ago, therunner said:

Thanks for this correction, I knew Roshar has weaker gravity but when writing I did not bother to look it up, my fault. Although I would argue that my calculation from the Pursuer incident still holds, so Windrunner on fourth oath should be capable of creating r-lashing imparting acceleration of ~1000 m/s^2 .

I also wonder, would lashings on a different planet be imparting acceleration based on that planets acceleration on surface? I tried to look for some WoBs but I was not able to find anything.

Well, the reduced gravity just means you have to multiply everything by 1.4 so it doesn't change the orders of magnitude :D

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6 hours ago, mathiau said:

Anything a crossbow can. Including long distance

A lashing is roughly 6,84m.s^-2, Roshar's gravity is 70% that of Earth, so you're looking at 73meter with 10 lashings

We know gold healing will heal around the aluminium instead of ejecting the bullet

Absolutely not. There is no limit to the strength of gravity someone can withstand, what makes pilots pass out is the fact that their blood is not accelerated at the same rate as their neurons but with gravity everything is accelerated at the same rate

That is an increase in velocity of 73 meters every second it lasts.

Gold's healing is actually blocked in a volume around aluminum. The more aluminum the larger the volume. in other words it interferes with invested healing.

G's indicates acceleration measured in vector units of gravity. 10 G's of acceleration is at or near the limit of human surviveability for a very short period of time measured in seconds.

Windrunners who change direction suddenly have been shown to nearly pass out.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Thanks for this correction, I knew Roshar has weaker gravity but when writing I did not bother to look it up, my fault. Although I would argue that my calculation from the Pursuer incident still holds, so Windrunner on fourth oath should be capable of creating r-lashing imparting acceleration of ~1000 m/s^2 .

I also wonder, would lashings on a different planet be imparting acceleration based on that planets acceleration on surface? I tried to look for some WoBs but I was not able to find anything.

The force of 1,000 m/s could probably rip anyones head off and would probably only take 15 lashes over a period of 10 seconds or less.

4 hours ago, mathiau said:

Well, the reduced gravity just means you have to multiply everything by 1.4 so it doesn't change the orders of magnitude :D

It also means you may only need to apply force over a longer time period.

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Here is another category of Twinborn that could be intriguing.

Consider Soulbearers combined with almost any type of Allomancer.

A Thugbearer (Soulbearer thug twin) could have feruchemically enhanced strength, reflexes, agility, healing, resistance, and speed stored from burning pewter that could be used all together, in any combination, or individually. They would seem like a bloodmaker, a brute, or a steelrunner, depending on what the situation required. Because they would be storing the attributes from Allomancy they would have massive reserves available on demand that could be tapped at rates exceeding flared pewter. With martial training they could be incredible combatants.

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3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Here is another category of Twinborn that could be intriguing.

Consider Soulbearers combined with almost any type of Allomancer.

A Thugbearer (Soulbearer thug twin) could have feruchemically enhanced strength, reflexes, agility, healing, resistance, and speed stored from burning pewter that could be used all together, in any combination, or individually. They would seem like a bloodmaker, a brute, or a steelrunner, depending on what the situation required. Because they would be storing the attributes from Allomancy they would have massive reserves available on demand that could be tapped at rates exceeding flared pewter. With martial training they could be incredible combatants.

That doesn't work, F-nicrosil works like F-copper not like F-iron

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That is an increase in velocity of 73 meters every second it lasts.

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion, 6,84m.s^-2 is an increase in velocity of 6,84m.s meters per second every second it lasts.

Quote

G's indicates acceleration measured in vector units of gravity. 10 G's of acceleration is at or near the limit of human surviveability for a very short period of time measured in seconds.

Did you read what I said before saying the exact same thing for the second time?

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Windrunners who change direction suddenly have been shown to nearly pass out.

Yes, because they reorient themselves to continue facing the right direction creating an uneven distribution of acceleration known as a rotation. But you'll note that they never have that issue when they they go in straight line while real life pilots do.

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12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The force of 1,000 m/s could probably rip anyones head off and would probably only take 15 lashes over a period of 10 seconds or less.

That is not how that works, you need to generate force greater than the force holding the tissue together to tear the tissue, so applying smaller force for longer time would not be sufficient.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A Thugbearer (Soulbearer thug twin) could have feruchemically enhanced strength, reflexes, agility, healing, resistance, and speed stored from burning pewter that could be used all together, in any combination, or individually. They would seem like a bloodmaker, a brute, or a steelrunner, depending on what the situation required. Because they would be storing the attributes from Allomancy they would have massive reserves available on demand that could be tapped at rates exceeding flared pewter. With martial training they could be incredible combatants.

Soulbearers store their ability to use investiture (as far as we know at this point), i.e. static investiture, and there is no evidence they could "cut up" a given power into multiple components. They best they could do is store their ability to use A-pewter wholesale, and while storing they would have no allomancy, while tapping they would have it.  Also they could not use feruchemy to enhance those attributes, as they do not have those feruchemical powers, and so they would not be able to store those attributes.

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On 3/6/2021 at 5:17 PM, mathiau said:

That doesn't work, F-nicrosil works like F-copper not like F-iron

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion, 6,84m.s^-2 is an increase in velocity of 6,84m.s meters per second every second it lasts.

Did you read what I said before saying the exact same thing for the second time?

Yes, because they reorient themselves to continue facing the right direction creating an uneven distribution of acceleration known as a rotation. But you'll note that they never have that issue when they they go in straight line while real life pilots do.

I was going off the numbers someone else presented times 10.

Exactly when changing directions is when the full G forces are applied. If a Windrunner threw an immediate 15 lashes in one direction they would likely knock themselves out and potentially kill themselves except for their healing factor. Pilots trained to withstand G forces withstand those forces for only seconds.

On 3/7/2021 at 3:27 AM, therunner said:

That is not how that works, you need to generate force greater than the force holding the tissue together to tear the tissue, so applying smaller force for longer time would not be sufficient.

Soulbearers store their ability to use investiture (as far as we know at this point), i.e. static investiture, and there is no evidence they could "cut up" a given power into multiple components. They best they could do is store their ability to use A-pewter wholesale, and while storing they would have no allomancy, while tapping they would have it.  Also they could not use feruchemy to enhance those attributes, as they do not have those feruchemical powers, and so they would not be able to store those attributes.

Eventually as the force is increased tissues separate, that is the effect of the medieval Rack, and Drawing and quartering someone. So yes force over time is sufficient if not as spectacular as what Kal did.

Soulbearers store investiture seemingly without restriction. Why couldn't you store the various physical surges provided by Pewter separately and once stored they are available to be tapped when desired Feruchemically. You don't even need to store the full investiture provided by flaring pewter so you could both be burning pewter for the increased physical abilities and storing at the same time. Since pewter burns slow one could be almost constantly burning it and storing without experiencing the effects of reduced normal abilities.

Soulbearers seem to work more like Windwhisper only on a much broader scale. Windwhisper can and do store senses in separate metalminds and are not restricted to just the normal 5 senses, but if they are seekers could store allomancy sense and any other sense potentially provided by what ever allomancy they have above and beyond the normal 5. Soulbearers could seemingly incorporate any allomantic ability in their metalminds.

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8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Eventually as the force is increased tissues separate, that is the effect of the medieval Rack, and Drawing and quartering someone. So yes force over time is sufficient if not as spectacular as what Kal did.

If it's not enough to do damage to the tissue it won't do anything, no matter how long you leave it, it doesn't matter how many times I hit a wall with a feather, the wall is never going to break.

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31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If it's not enough to do damage to the tissue it won't do anything, no matter how long you leave it, it doesn't matter how many times I hit a wall with a feather, the wall is never going to break.

It isn't about hitting the wall with a feather but about a constant increase of pressure on the wall. It doesn't matter how strong the wall is eventually the pressure will overwhelm it.

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13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Eventually as the force is increased tissues separate, that is the effect of the medieval Rack, and Drawing and quartering someone. So yes force over time is sufficient if not as spectacular as what Kal did.

Yes, as the force increases beyond the limits of the forces binding the tissues together, specifically when the stress in material overcomes the ultimate tensile strength (usually given in terms of pressure/stress, but easily converted to forces for practical applications). For human head, that limit is generally around 5000N, so 100 earth-gravity lashing are required at minimum. Also rack generally lead to dislocations, not separation.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It isn't about hitting the wall with a feather but about a constant increase of pressure on the wall. It doesn't matter how strong the wall is eventually the pressure will overwhelm it.

If you increase the pressure, you are increasing the force, lashings impart force (redirected/magnified gravitational force) -> i.e. you would need more lashings, not just lashings for longer period.

 

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Soulbearers store investiture seemingly without restriction. Why couldn't you store the various physical surges provided by Pewter separately and once stored they are available to be tapped when desired Feruchemically. You don't even need to store the full investiture provided by flaring pewter so you could both be burning pewter for the increased physical abilities and storing at the same time. Since pewter burns slow one could be almost constantly burning it and storing without experiencing the effects of reduced normal abilities.

We do not yet know restrictions on soulbearers, but that does not mean there are none. What has been shown so far (and confirmed in WoBs) is that they can store ability to use investiture, i.e. they store parts of their spiritweb, their innate investiture, not just any investiture. And they cannot store physical attributes because that is not the power of feruchemical nicrosil.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Soulbearers seem to work more like Windwhisper only on a much broader scale. Windwhisper can and do store senses in separate metalminds and are not restricted to just the normal 5 senses, but if they are seekers could store allomancy sense and any other sense potentially provided by what ever allomancy they have above and beyond the normal 5. Soulbearers could seemingly incorporate any allomantic ability in their metalminds.

The fact that f-tin allows to store different senses in different minds at best implies that nicrosil ferring with both lets say Breath and A-Iron could store into one minds the Breath and into the other A-iron, but to say that they can also use it to store strength/balance etc goes wildly beyond that.

If they can also store kinetic investiture, then I think they would just store the investiture keyed to A-Pewter as a whole, so they would get the whole effect at once, not just part of it, so they could not pick and choose.

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12 hours ago, therunner said:

We do not yet know restrictions on soulbearers, but that does not mean there are none. What has been shown so far (and confirmed in WoBs) is that they can store ability to use investiture, i.e. they store parts of their spiritweb, their innate investiture, not just any investiture. And they cannot store physical attributes because that is not the power of feruchemical nicrosil.

The fact that f-tin allows to store different senses in different minds at best implies that nicrosil ferring with both lets say Breath and A-Iron could store into one minds the Breath and into the other A-iron, but to say that they can also use it to store strength/balance etc goes wildly beyond that.

If they can also store kinetic investiture, then I think they would just store the investiture keyed to A-Pewter as a whole, so they would get the whole effect at once, not just part of it, so they could not pick and choose.

A thug's allomancy to enhance their physical abilities is their innate investiture and so could potentially be stored in part or in whole in a Nicrosil-F Just like any sense can be stored in Tin. The healing effects of Pewter could also be stored in Gold-F, and the speed could be stored in Steel-F, just not to the degree a compounder could do it. A full Feruchemist could be both a Soulbearer and Gasper, but no Ferring would ever have both abilities without Hemalurgy or medalions. A soulbearer could be a pulser though.

There might be times you want only one or two of the physical abilities or might want to tap different levels of the physical abilities so storing the attributes separately would be useful.

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12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A thug's allomancy to enhance their physical abilities is their innate investiture and so could potentially be stored in part or in whole in a Nicrosil-F Just like any sense can be stored in Tin. The healing effects of Pewter could also be stored in Gold-F, and the speed could be stored in Steel-F, just not to the degree a compounder could do it. A full Feruchemist could be both a Soulbearer and Gasper, but no Ferring would ever have both abilities without Hemalurgy or medalions. A soulbearer could be a pulser though.

There might be times you want only one or two of the physical abilities or might want to tap different levels of the physical abilities so storing the attributes separately would be useful.

I do agree that someone with pewter and Gold-F could store that improved healing, or Steel-F could improved speed to store more. What I disagree with is that Nicrosil-F could pick and choose what part of A-pewter effect to store into the nicrosil, as 1) We do not know if they can store kinetic investiture at all. and 2) If they can, they can most likely only store it wholesale, not only part of it (i.e. if they had access to stormlight, they could not just store the better healing part but not the improved physical attributes part, they are both stormlight).

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10 hours ago, therunner said:

I do agree that someone with pewter and Gold-F could store that improved healing, or Steel-F could improved speed to store more. What I disagree with is that Nicrosil-F could pick and choose what part of A-pewter effect to store into the nicrosil, as 1) We do not know if they can store kinetic investiture at all. and 2) If they can, they can most likely only store it wholesale, not only part of it (i.e. if they had access to stormlight, they could not just store the better healing part but not the improved physical attributes part, they are both stormlight).

Oh they would store it all just separate it into different metalminds, but if they must store all the ability together then imagine the effect of tapping that same storage since Feruchemically they could tap all of the stored pewter enhancement almost at once. Imagine an hours worth of Pewter flaring tapped in 5 minutes. Healing off the charts, strength to level almost anything, Enhanced endurance to handle throwing those punches, finally with the speed, reflexes, and balance to be all but untouchable. A person like this could be storing pewter abilities almost constantly almost without the risk of pewter drag, and tap that at will, but without the increased size since it is pewter allomancy strength not feruchemical strength tapping.

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  • 5 weeks later...

@therunner I thought you would appreciate this WoB on attribute storage since you are all about citation.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2766

Necarion

The compounding trick that the Lord Ruler performed. When you're storing Investiture, are you storing your "Mistborn-ness" or all the powers individually?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the powers individually.

Necarion

Oh okay!

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the compounding trick. Really what's happening is you're fueling Feruchemy with the power of Allomancy, but you're filtering it through you, and then you're storing it.

Necarion

So it's not that you're a more powerful mistborn when you've tapped [investiture]

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

This indicates that Nicrosil would store strength, speed, health, balance, agility and any other invested attribute from pewter burning separately, and it also answers why windwhisper store senses in separate metalminds if they are also Tineye burning tin to be stored. The real question then is does it get stored as allomantic or feruchemical strength since Nicrosil stores investiture not specifically strength. Brutes store the strength as Feruchemical strength from burning pewter so their muscles would enlarge when they tapped it, but Nicrosil might store it as a magnification of strength instead without the attendant muscle increase.

Just food for thought.

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5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunner I thought you would appreciate this WoB on attribute storage since you are all about citation.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2766

Necarion

The compounding trick that the Lord Ruler performed. When you're storing Investiture, are you storing your "Mistborn-ness" or all the powers individually?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the powers individually.

Necarion

Oh okay!

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the compounding trick. Really what's happening is you're fueling Feruchemy with the power of Allomancy, but you're filtering it through you, and then you're storing it.

Necarion

So it's not that you're a more powerful mistborn when you've tapped [investiture]

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

This indicates that Nicrosil would store strength, speed, health, balance, agility and any other invested attribute from pewter burning separately, and it also answers why windwhisper store senses in separate metalminds if they are also Tineye burning tin to be stored. The real question then is does it get stored as allomantic or feruchemical strength since Nicrosil stores investiture not specifically strength. Brutes store the strength as Feruchemical strength from burning pewter so their muscles would enlarge when they tapped it, but Nicrosil might store it as a magnification of strength instead without the attendant muscle increase.

Just food for thought.

When brandon says all powers individually he is speaking of different metals

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