83 posts in this topic

The purpose of this topic is to project the most extreme abilities of any investiture in the cosmere based on the currently referenceable material. Ideas which can be logically defended are welcome regardless how outrageous.

As promised a coinshot laser would likely be produced by a Steel twinborn compounder after the discovery of heavy metals and at least some experiments in nuclear science on Scadrial. This individual would likely be able to detonate nuclear explosions using metal pushing and heavy metals and would need the speed of a steelrunner to avoid serious injury. Using metal pushing they could likely push small particles of radioacive metal forming a type of laser or electromagnetic particle beam at high velocity. Due to a strong spiritual affinity with steel because of being a steel twin it might be possible that they could store steel pushes and speed in a metal mind for use feruchemically yielding steel pushes and speed to exceed duralumin assisted allomancy. The nuclear particle beam could be used on its own or in concert with radioactive spheres in battle situations to inflict massive damage. The nuclear laser could be used to split atoms in a plutonium, uranium or like metal to create atomic or nuclear explosions. Due to the ability to create steel bubbles they could also probably shield themselves from the radiation of nuclear material on or near them.

With fine enough control they could also perform nuclear laser surgery. They could be outfitted in steel biomechanical armor that could act as a metal mind for both their allomantic and feruchemical abilities.

What do you think of this idea or what extreme use of investiture do you envision?

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Microkenisis is likey as extreme as it gets

Edited by Frustration
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Hello, long time lurker here

I do not wish to seem rude, however it seems to me you @BenduLukeSo I would like to correct those misconceptions. are working from flawed understanding of real world physics, which in my opinion leads you to indefensible conclusions.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The purpose of this topic is to project the most extreme abilities of any investiture in the cosmere based on the currently referenceable material. Ideas which can be logically defended are welcome regardless how outrageous.

As promised a coinshot laser would likely be produced by a Steel twinborn compounder after the discovery of heavy metals and at least some experiments in nuclear science on Scadrial. This individual would likely be able to detonate nuclear explosions using metal pushing and heavy metals and would need the speed of a steelrunner to avoid serious injury. Using metal pushing they could likely push small particles of radioacive metal forming a type of laser or electromagnetic particle beam at high velocity. Due to a strong spiritual affinity with steel because of being a steel twin it might be possible that they could store steel pushes and speed in a metal mind for use feruchemically yielding steel pushes and speed to exceed duralumin assisted allomancy. The nuclear particle beam could be used on its own or in concert with radioactive spheres in battle situations to inflict massive damage. The nuclear laser could be used to split atoms in a plutonium, uranium or like metal to create atomic or nuclear explosions. Due to the ability to create steel bubbles they could also probably shield themselves from the radiation of nuclear material on or near them.

With fine enough control they could also perform nuclear laser surgery. They could be outfitted in steel biomechanical armor that could act as a metal mind for both their allomantic and feruchemical abilities.

What do you think of this idea or what extreme use of investiture do you envision?

First, they would definitely be unable to produce lasers, as that would require manipulating light not metals, also as they require light to be in coherent state you cannot just focus preexisting light from other sources to make lasers. I also doubt even matter laser would be possible as just accelerating bunch of particle would not make coherent beam necessary for that, you cannot use steelpushes (which seem to just manipulate momentum) to make them share the same quantum state. Regular beam of metallic particles might be possible, however in my opinion it would require incredible fine control, on the level of Steel Inquisitors or beyond, to make all the individual particles have the same speed.

Also they would not be able to start nuclear explosions, that requires uncontrolled chain reaction, which is started by for example uranium capturing neutron and then decaying. Just hitting an uranium atom with another atom would at best just break it down, without releasing slow neutrons necessary to start chain reaction. In principle they could simulate the old-school atom bomb like Little Boy where you fire uranium bullet into uranium core, but those would have to be prepared and they would need to fire are correct speeds (too slow and it blows apart before fission uses it all up, too fast and you break up the target). They would most likely be able to create dirty bombs though, which would in my opinion nicely complement the fact that metalborn seem more suited for more clandestine work, and they could use the prepared Little-boy like devices to achieve that.

Fusion is also non starter in my opinion, as even if Hydrogen counts as metal, you would need to continuously push against the pressure of the reaction and replenish fusion fuel. Also you would need multiple Coinshots acting in concert, because if you would push just from one direction, the hydrogen would simply escape in the direction you are not pushing in.

Also they could not shield themselves from radiation, alpha-radiation are helium nuclei so not metals (as helium does not seem to possess metallic phase), beta-radiation are electron/positrons so again not metals and finally gamma-radiation is just light.
Steel bubble could however protect them from radiation fallout, so they would hopefully not breathe in radioactive particles.

EDIT: Also I think we can in fact assume that hydrogen does NOT count as metal, for the following reason: Human body is composed mainly of water, and based on wikipedia hydrogen forms ~10% of human body by weight or ~60% of human body by atomic count. If hydrogen counted as metal, then for Steel Inquisitors human bodies should light up like christmas tree (assuming metal sight is based on individual particles) which they seemingly do not, as the amount of hydrogen should overwhelm any other metals.

 

Edited by therunner
Added a name on the second line, added note about hydrogen
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Due to a strong spiritual affinity with steel because of being a steel twin it might be possible that they could store steel pushes and speed in a metal mind

We do not know how they would be able to store speed in a metalmind, and likely it would have something to do with nicrosil, a metal that they can't use*

*Without hemalurgy

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@therunner My take is the OP misappropriated the term laser, and appears to have approached nuclear applications in unrealistic ways that you do a decent job of addressing.

I would like to point out that although your points about hydrogen in the environments we exist in are correct, there is reason to believe that in incredibly extreme pressures not found on our planet, hydrogen phase changes into liquid metal.

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@Serack I am aware of metallic phase of hydrogen. As you mention I mostly wanted to mention hydrogen as it exists presently in environment (i.e. mostly as gas, in compounds or potential as liquid). To me it seems unlikely that whether an element counts as metal for purposes of Metallic arts depends on its phase, although it is possible as I am not aware of any statements that would go against it. Do we have any details on allomancers pushing/pulling on melted metals or metals in gaseous form?

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1 minute ago, therunner said:

@Serack I am aware of metallic phase of hydrogen. As you mention I mostly wanted to mention hydrogen as it exists presently in environment (i.e. mostly as gas, in compounds or potential as liquid). To me it seems unlikely that whether an element counts as metal for purposes of Metallic arts depends on its phase, although it is possible as I am not aware of any statements that would go against it. Do we have any details on allomancers pushing/pulling on melted metals or metals in gaseous form?

Actually it's more how Brandon feels about whether or not it counts

Spoiler

Questioner

What would be the Allomantic definition of "metal" as it relates to steel and iron, what shows up? Like, the metalloids, compounds, in ironsight and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, I don't know what you mean by that. What are the percentages?

Questioner

The periodic table.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, the periodic table. On the periodic table, the difference between iron and steel? What do you mean?

Questioner

What do iron and steel define as metals? So they would show up with blue lines?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, on the periodic table, what defines as metals? I see what you're staying. So, this is kind of free-form on my part. I have check marks on them on my periodic table, where I kinda just sat and said "Yes, no, yes, no." But things over on the side with cesium and what-not, they would, they would count. Not everything that looks like it should count does. But most everything in that little batch, next to iron and gold and everybody over there, most everybody right there will, and most everybody over on the side will, the stuff that explodes with water. So for instance, ...sodium and stuff like that, if they're in their pure form would, but it's kinda freeform, I just had to make calls. Because there's gotta be a dividing line somewhere.

Questioner

So, would ironsight in enhanced Inquisitor form, show up on atoms in compounds...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, yeah, they totally would. That all shows up. Trace metals and things like that, they can see your blood, they can see all sorts of stuff.

Firefight Houston signing (Jan. 23, 2015)

 

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Thank you for the WoB @Frustration  Reading it, it seems to me that what he counts as metals are the elements usually considered metals in chemistry, i.e. alkali, alkaline earth metals (i.e. "things over on the side with cesium"), transition and post-transition  metals ("most right there" refering to things next to iron and gold). Although the note on him going through periodic table going "yes, no, yes, no" suggests that even some of those might not count.

This then suggests that most elements comprising organic compounds cannot be pushed/pulled (barring some exceptions). Hydrogen though straddles the line, as some count it among alkali metals (due to its orbitals) but most do not.

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Just now, therunner said:

Thank you for the WoB @Frustration  Reading it, it seems to me that what he counts as metals are the elements usually considered metals in chemistry, i.e. alkali, alkaline earth metals (i.e. "things over on the side with cesium"), transition and post-transition  metals ("most right there" refering to things next to iron and gold). Although the note on him going through periodic table going "yes, no, yes, no" suggests that even some of those might not count.

This then suggests that most elements comprising organic compounds cannot be pushed/pulled (barring some exceptions). Hydrogen though straddles the line, as some count it among alkali metals (due to its orbitals) but most do not.

Those were my thoughts,

I do wonder about the two drop down lines, Unranium and all that, if those count.

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Back to the OP's call for examples of uses of investiture.  It's not extreme, but I think the fabrial advances demonstrated in RoW can be engineered to shoot projectiles as discussed in this topic.

On 2/26/2021 at 1:03 PM, Serack said:

My understanding of @mathiau's crossbow idea seems to be the best version of this concept. 

Basically, the conjoined gems would serve as a crossbow's string (kinetic energy imparter) and crossbow arms (kinetic energy source). 

Divorcing the conjoined gems from the projectile (just as a crossbow string isn't part of the projectile) just solves so many potential problems.  Off the top of my head:

  1. Less concern about the fragility of the gems if they aren't what's impacting the target.
  2. Projectiles are more expendable without invested gems in them.
  3. Easier to control/engineer a short, repetitive path like a projectile sled, than an unknown projectile trajectory.  

Edit:  I skimmed some of the above comments and just went back to read @Szmit's comment.  By the time I got to #3 in my post, my reference to a "sled" was trying to morph my analogy from a crossbow, to something more like @Szmit's rail gun concept.  Although I think it's easier for people to conceptualize the fabrial serving as a crossbow's string and arms, as most people are familiar with that concept, a rail/sled mechanism would probably be the way to go about this.  

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While Coinshots might not be able to make lasers, I believe that Brandon said Lightweavers will be able to. All it really requires is intent, so once Roshar discovers lasers, things are going to get pretty interesting...

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On 2/28/2021 at 2:55 AM, therunner said:

Hello, long time lurker here

I do not wish to seem rude, however it seems to me you @BenduLukeSo I would like to correct those misconceptions. are working from flawed understanding of real world physics, which in my opinion leads you to indefensible conclusions.

First, they would definitely be unable to produce lasers, as that would require manipulating light not metals, also as they require light to be in coherent state you cannot just focus preexisting light from other sources to make lasers. I also doubt even matter laser would be possible as just accelerating bunch of particle would not make coherent beam necessary for that, you cannot use steelpushes (which seem to just manipulate momentum) to make them share the same quantum state. Regular beam of metallic particles might be possible, however in my opinion it would require incredible fine control, on the level of Steel Inquisitors or beyond, to make all the individual particles have the same speed.

Also they would not be able to start nuclear explosions, that requires uncontrolled chain reaction, which is started by for example uranium capturing neutron and then decaying. Just hitting an uranium atom with another atom would at best just break it down, without releasing slow neutrons necessary to start chain reaction. In principle they could simulate the old-school atom bomb like Little Boy where you fire uranium bullet into uranium core, but those would have to be prepared and they would need to fire are correct speeds (too slow and it blows apart before fission uses it all up, too fast and you break up the target). They would most likely be able to create dirty bombs though, which would in my opinion nicely complement the fact that metalborn seem more suited for more clandestine work, and they could use the prepared Little-boy like devices to achieve that.

Fusion is also non starter in my opinion, as even if Hydrogen counts as metal, you would need to continuously push against the pressure of the reaction and replenish fusion fuel. Also you would need multiple Coinshots acting in concert, because if you would push just from one direction, the hydrogen would simply escape in the direction you are not pushing in.

Also they could not shield themselves from radiation, alpha-radiation are helium nuclei so not metals (as helium does not seem to possess metallic phase), beta-radiation are electron/positrons so again not metals and finally gamma-radiation is just light.
Steel bubble could however protect them from radiation fallout, so they would hopefully not breathe in radioactive particles.

EDIT: Also I think we can in fact assume that hydrogen does NOT count as metal, for the following reason: Human body is composed mainly of water, and based on wikipedia hydrogen forms ~10% of human body by weight or ~60% of human body by atomic count. If hydrogen counted as metal, then for Steel Inquisitors human bodies should light up like christmas tree (assuming metal sight is based on individual particles) which they seemingly do not, as the amount of hydrogen should overwhelm any other metals.

 

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

Just so you know I never considered Steel compounders capable to create Fusion, Iron on the other hand in my mind could be a possibility. I am using the term laser with steel compounders loosely. More accurately it would be a particle beam used to split atoms and you are right it would take incredible control, but the odds are that a compounder would become savant and has the potential to have that the degree of skill. Without that high degree of skill it would become a dirty bomb. Alpha particles are almost harmless. Beta particles can be conducted by steel and at the tech level to consider atomic explosions safe guards could be installed to avoid negative consequences in tandem with steel pushes. If Hydrogen is not considered a metal by Brandon that still leaves Lithium as a fuse-able material for Iron compounders.

On 2/28/2021 at 6:06 AM, GoWibble said:

We do not know how they would be able to store speed in a metalmind, and likely it would have something to do with nicrosil, a metal that they can't use*

*Without hemalurgy

Steel stores speed feruchemically. Where I go out on a limb is the idea that the spiritual connection to Steel by a Steel compounder might enable them to store steel pushes in steel turning it into super steel with Duralumin like potential over longer periods.

On 3/1/2021 at 8:02 AM, therunner said:

@Serack I am aware of metallic phase of hydrogen. As you mention I mostly wanted to mention hydrogen as it exists presently in environment (i.e. mostly as gas, in compounds or potential as liquid). To me it seems unlikely that whether an element counts as metal for purposes of Metallic arts depends on its phase, although it is possible as I am not aware of any statements that would go against it. Do we have any details on allomancers pushing/pulling on melted metals or metals in gaseous form?

Brandon has said that Iron/Steel allomancers can push on metal in gas, liquid, and solid forms.

On 3/1/2021 at 8:31 AM, Serack said:

Back to the OP's call for examples of uses of investiture.  It's not extreme, but I think the fabrial advances demonstrated in RoW can be engineered to shoot projectiles as discussed in this topic.

Give us examples of what you think those projectile fabrials might be capable of? I would love to hear more on that.

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10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Just so you know I never considered Steel compounders capable to create Fusion, Iron on the other hand in my mind could be a possibility. I am using the term laser with steel compounders loosely. More accurately it would be a particle beam used to split atoms and you are right it would take incredible control, but the odds are that a compounder would become savant and has the potential to have that the degree of skill. Without that high degree of skill it would become a dirty bomb. Alpha particles are almost harmless. Beta particles can be conducted by steel and at the tech level to consider atomic explosions safe guards could be installed to avoid negative consequences in tandem with steel pushes. If Hydrogen is not considered a metal by Brandon that still leaves Lithium as a fuse-able material for Iron compounders.

I mentioned fusion to fully address possibility of nuclear explosions. I also do not see how Iron compounders would have a possibility of igniting fusion, A-Iron allows them to pull metals to themselves along a straight line and F-Iron allows them to store/tap their weight, neither of which would allow them to create conditions extreme enough to ignite fusion (note that lithium fusion requires much more energy to get going than even hydrogen fusion, and that is already quite extreme). The best I can think of is suicide attack where they do one incredibly strong pull on hydrogen from all directions at once, with themselves at center, but I seriously doubt they would be strong enough to ignite fusion. (assuming 100% efficiency, to fuse 1 microgram of Hydrogen they would need to pull with force ~10^5-10^6 Newtons, for energy output ~10kg of TNT, that is strong enough to completely cancel gravity on ~10 ton object for the duration of the pull, for lithium there is at least 6 times as much force needed). So small explosions are from energy standpoint doable, but you still have the issue of how to actually put all that energy in one place, the pulls are only linear so the only intersection of multiple pulls from one user is the user himself, so they would kill themselves with this attack.

While particle beam might split some atoms (emphasis on might) it would not be able to start chain reaction needed for nuclear explosions. The control itself would be needed to just create the particle beam, but after that physics takes over and they cannot really effect if any given collision will result in emission of neutron at correct speed. Simply put, nuclear collisions are not enough to start nuclear explosions,as atomic collision generally do not result in fission (the collision is generally due to electromagnetic interaction), as energetically it is easier for the incoming particle to knock the other atom away, instead of first fusing together and then falling apart.

It is true that alpha particles are not too dangerous, as they can be mostly shielded by just sufficient layer of air, I just wanted to list it for completness.

Also what do you mean by stating that beta particles can conducted by steel? For shielding from beta radiation, lighter elements are better, so steel armor might actually be worse for the user (as the beta radiation might cause emission of x-ray/gamma radiation due to braking in the material). And as you state, it is true that at the point where now about nuclear explosions they would be able to devise protective clothing.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon has said that Iron/Steel allomancers can push on metal in gas, liquid, and solid forms.

May I ask for link on that WoB? I am curious about his wording.

 

And in spirit of speculation, Windrunners might be able to create simple "guns/railguns" as follows: Take a long tube, put ammunition in one end, and then coat the other with a bunch of strong reverse lashings that will attract the ammunition (as reverse lashing seem to just act on object the users wants it to). When the ammunition leaves the tube, cancel the reverse lashing (this would the difficult part to time right, unless they found a way to automate it). The good thing about lashing is that they directly impart acceleration, so to accelerate heavier object you "just" need more stormlight. As an example, to accelerate arbitrary object to ~100 m/s  (assuming enough stormlight) you would need about 50m long tube and put down 10 r-lashing ( or 5 m long tube and 100 r-lashings, longer tubes are better for timing the end, and I assume strength of one lashing to be ~10m/s^2).

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Here's a link to the original post trying to come up with a way to do this, although the comments, and my interpolation go a different direction than his original concept.  

 

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Give us examples of what you think those projectile fabrials might be capable of? I would love to hear more on that.

Speaking from the perspective of an Army Vet, and current engineer, I think it would take about as much or less sophistication as is in an M-16 to have a fabrial version of an assault rifle just extrapolating from the glove that simulated windrunner flying.

Rather than having the conjoined fabrial move the entire glove and it's bearer, have it move a small sled on a sort rail.  The "trigger" activates it on one end, propelling the sled to the other end where a mechanism deactivates it as the projectile is launched off the sled.  Done correctly, you could store/redirect some of the forward momentum to automatically return the empty sled to the original position where a spring fed magazine places a new projectile on the sled just as the whole process restarts, as long as the "trigger" is still activated.  

One thing that helps with the process is the principal of varying the distance one conjoined gem travels compared to the other by having different sizes for the gems.  

You could also scale this up to make artillery/ballista. 

Here's a larger, present day example of a sled/rail launcher:

 

Edited by Serack
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12 hours ago, therunner said:

I mentioned fusion to fully address possibility of nuclear explosions. I also do not see how Iron compounders would have a possibility of igniting fusion, A-Iron allows them to pull metals to themselves along a straight line and F-Iron allows them to store/tap their weight, neither of which would allow them to create conditions extreme enough to ignite fusion (note that lithium fusion requires much more energy to get going than even hydrogen fusion, and that is already quite extreme). The best I can think of is suicide attack where they do one incredibly strong pull on hydrogen from all directions at once, with themselves at center, but I seriously doubt they would be strong enough to ignite fusion. (assuming 100% efficiency, to fuse 1 microgram of Hydrogen they would need to pull with force ~10^5-10^6 Newtons, for energy output ~10kg of TNT, that is strong enough to completely cancel gravity on ~10 ton object for the duration of the pull, for lithium there is at least 6 times as much force needed). So small explosions are from energy standpoint doable, but you still have the issue of how to actually put all that energy in one place, the pulls are only linear so the only intersection of multiple pulls from one user is the user himself, so they would kill themselves with this attack.

While particle beam might split some atoms (emphasis on might) it would not be able to start chain reaction needed for nuclear explosions. The control itself would be needed to just create the particle beam, but after that physics takes over and they cannot really effect if any given collision will result in emission of neutron at correct speed. Simply put, nuclear collisions are not enough to start nuclear explosions,as atomic collision generally do not result in fission (the collision is generally due to electromagnetic interaction), as energetically it is easier for the incoming particle to knock the other atom away, instead of first fusing together and then falling apart.

It is true that alpha particles are not too dangerous, as they can be mostly shielded by just sufficient layer of air, I just wanted to list it for completness.

Also what do you mean by stating that beta particles can conducted by steel? For shielding from beta radiation, lighter elements are better, so steel armor might actually be worse for the user (as the beta radiation might cause emission of x-ray/gamma radiation due to braking in the material). And as you state, it is true that at the point where now about nuclear explosions they would be able to devise protective clothing.

May I ask for link on that WoB? I am curious about his wording.

 

And in spirit of speculation, Windrunners might be able to create simple "guns/railguns" as follows: Take a long tube, put ammunition in one end, and then coat the other with a bunch of strong reverse lashings that will attract the ammunition (as reverse lashing seem to just act on object the users wants it to). When the ammunition leaves the tube, cancel the reverse lashing (this would the difficult part to time right, unless they found a way to automate it). The good thing about lashing is that they directly impart acceleration, so to accelerate heavier object you "just" need more stormlight. As an example, to accelerate arbitrary object to ~100 m/s  (assuming enough stormlight) you would need about 50m long tube and put down 10 r-lashing ( or 5 m long tube and 100 r-lashings, longer tubes are better for timing the end, and I assume strength of one lashing to be ~10m/s^2).

First I will address why steel armor. Because steel can act as a metal mind for a steel compounder. More steel = more storage. Other compounders might use other metals.

I agree that Windrunners could create railgun effects. So could coinshots, and Skybreakers and with the right mechanical system Lurchers.

A little sooner than I was going to discuss this but here is the idea behind Iron compounders having the potential to create fusion. First assuming Hydrogen is treated as a metal it would make the concept more workable. It seems to me that coinshots and lurchers get an exponential return in their pushes and pulls based on their mass. An Iron compounder with Iron armor acting as their metalmind would have a vast store of density/mass to tap.  The goal behind generating small fusion reactions would be to release EM energy that could be directed and focused by a Berylium mirror which is both extremely heat resistant and can be reflexive. You would probably want to use deuterium or tritium as the H fuel. With the increased density would come proportional strength as well to handle the increased weight in at least bones and muscles, and perhaps even the skin if the increased density is great enough. this might come in the form of a chest laser like Iron man.

Here is the link for liquid pulls.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron

The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight,

 An especially skilled Allomancer can Pull on individual parts of a metal object.[6] Ironpulling liquid metals works similarly to a ferrofluid.

One other offensive weapon in a Steel compounder's or coinshots arsenal are incendiary rounds. Store potassium rounds in an oil solution in the armor perhaps with a soft metal jacket depending on the target. inside the potassium is a magnesium layer, and inside that is an alluminum layer. Push the projectile into the target. the oil gets stripped off on entry into soft flesh or the soft metal gets stripped off as it pierces armor. Potassium exposed to air or water ignites at high temperature and ignites the magnesium which can ignite even water, and finally the aluminum is ignited by the extreme heat of magnesium and also inhibits invested healing at the same time. All this creates an explosive reaction in anyone it penetrates with bits of aluminum in the surrounding tissues. Very nasty simple thermite like projectile. So long as the potassium is in oil or encased in soft metal it is inert.

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17 hours ago, therunner said:

And in spirit of speculation, Windrunners might be able to create simple "guns/railguns" as follows: Take a long tube, put ammunition in one end, and then coat the other with a bunch of strong reverse lashings that will attract the ammunition (as reverse lashing seem to just act on object the users wants it to). When the ammunition leaves the tube, cancel the reverse lashing (this would the difficult part to time right, unless they found a way to automate it). The good thing about lashing is that they directly impart acceleration, so to accelerate heavier object you "just" need more stormlight. As an example, to accelerate arbitrary object to ~100 m/s  (assuming enough stormlight) you would need about 50m long tube and put down 10 r-lashing ( or 5 m long tube and 100 r-lashings, longer tubes are better for timing the end, and I assume strength of one lashing to be ~10m/s^2).

You can just use normal lashings, though? I don't know why you want to use a reverse lashing. Just lash a small thing multiple times in a direction, boom, instant bullet

Edited by theTruthshaper
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9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

First I will address why steel armor. Because steel can act as a metal mind for a steel compounder. More steel = more storage. Other compounders might use other metals.

I see how steel armor can be used as a metal mind, I do not see how that is supposed to help with beta radiation as you state:

On 02/03/2021 at 11:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

 Alpha particles are almost harmless. Beta particles can be conducted by steel and at the tech level to consider atomic explosions safe guards could be installed to avoid negative consequences in tandem with steel pushes. If Hydrogen is not considered a metal by Brandon that still leaves Lithium as a fuse-able material for Iron compounders.

As I stated in my previous post, to shield against beta radiation you would prefer lighter metals, to prevent appearance of braking radiation, which would be more dangerous, so steel would not work too well.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A little sooner than I was going to discuss this but here is the idea behind Iron compounders having the potential to create fusion. First assuming Hydrogen is treated as a metal it would make the concept more workable. It seems to me that coinshots and lurchers get an exponential return in their pushes and pulls based on their mass. An Iron compounder with Iron armor acting as their metalmind would have a vast store of density/mass to tap.  The goal behind generating small fusion reactions would be to release EM energy that could be directed and focused by a Berylium mirror which is both extremely heat resistant and can be reflexive. You would probably want to use deuterium or tritium as the H fuel. With the increased density would come proportional strength as well to handle the increased weight in at least bones and muscles, and perhaps even the skin if the increased density is great enough. this might come in the form of a chest laser like Iron man.

Thanks for this, I was misremembering how mass of user affects pulls/pushes. The way I see it now the I-compounder could achieve sufficient strength to provide enough energy to theoretically create and ignite plasma (#CompoundingIsBrokenAF), but the problem is still how to concentrate that energy in one spot. The only place they can pull towards is themselves, and to prevent the hydrogen from escaping due to collisions they would need to pull from all sides the same way, putting them straight in the center of now ignited nuclear fusion explosion, which would kill them on the spot. Also Wax states that tapping weight does not increase his density, as bullets still easily pass through him (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692), so tapping weight does not increase their resistance to damage, therefore that would not help them survive the fusion explosion centered on their location.

Altogether, now i agree that I-compounders have enough energy output to ignite fusion, but mechanically they have no way to put that energy in one spot without killing themselves, due to limitations of pushes/pulls to a straight line from user to metal.

To address the part with mirrors, in Deuterium and Tritium reactions most energy (between 66%-80%) is released in form of neutrons not photons, so most energy would be wasted. Also, even in more suitable reactions (like the Hydrogen-Hydrogen or Hydrogen-Helium) the photons released are gamma rays, and those cannot be reflected of mirrors due to their short wavelength.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One other offensive weapon in a Steel compounder's or coinshots arsenal are incendiary rounds. Store potassium rounds in an oil solution in the armor perhaps with a soft metal jacket depending on the target. inside the potassium is a magnesium layer, and inside that is an alluminum layer. Push the projectile into the target. the oil gets stripped off on entry into soft flesh or the soft metal gets stripped off as it pierces armor. Potassium exposed to air or water ignites at high temperature and ignites the magnesium which can ignite even water, and finally the aluminum is ignited by the extreme heat of magnesium and also inhibits invested healing at the same time. All this creates an explosive reaction in anyone it penetrates with bits of aluminum in the surrounding tissues. Very nasty simple thermite like projectile. So long as the potassium is in oil or encased in soft metal it is inert.

These rounds are just evil, and tactically brilliant. Just one potential issue, do we know if even chemical compounds containing aluminum inhibits invested healing? I would think that yes they still do, but if not then having aluminum ignite would not provide the desired effect.

5 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

You can just use normal lashings, though? I don't know why you want to use a reverse lashing. Just lash a small thing multiple times in a direction, boom, instant bullet

True, I got a bit of a tunnel vision on the reverse lashing. But post facto rationalization, reverse lashings use the least amount of light, making them more efficient (and potentially allowing this artillery to fire more rounds before requiring restocking with spheres).

EDIT: Also, the reverse lashing seems to be stronger than basic lashing (the whole ripping Pursuers head off incident), so for less light you get more acceleration, again increasing effectivness.

Edited by therunner
added more details for why reverse compounding would be useful
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8 hours ago, therunner said:

True, I got a bit of a tunnel vision on the reverse lashing. But post facto rationalization, reverse lashings use the least amount of light, making them more efficient (and potentially allowing this artillery to fire more rounds before requiring restocking with spheres).

EDIT: Also, the reverse lashing seems to be stronger than basic lashing (the whole ripping Pursuers head off incident), so for less light you get more acceleration, again increasing effectivness.

Reverse lashings are not stronger than basic lashings, as far as I know, and Kaladin used multiple of them to rip Pursuers head off. The additional problem with this is that it gives the ammunition only a small distance to accelerate. Eg. if your railgun is a meter long, you'll need 2000 lashings to get the thing up to 200m/s (assuming each lashing is 10m/s^2)

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12 hours ago, therunner said:

I see how steel armor can be used as a metal mind, I do not see how that is supposed to help with beta radiation as you state:

As I stated in my previous post, to shield against beta radiation you would prefer lighter metals, to prevent appearance of braking radiation, which would be more dangerous, so steel would not work too well.

Thanks for this, I was misremembering how mass of user affects pulls/pushes. The way I see it now the I-compounder could achieve sufficient strength to provide enough energy to theoretically create and ignite plasma (#CompoundingIsBrokenAF), but the problem is still how to concentrate that energy in one spot. The only place they can pull towards is themselves, and to prevent the hydrogen from escaping due to collisions they would need to pull from all sides the same way, putting them straight in the center of now ignited nuclear fusion explosion, which would kill them on the spot. Also Wax states that tapping weight does not increase his density, as bullets still easily pass through him (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e692), so tapping weight does not increase their resistance to damage, therefore that would not help them survive the fusion explosion centered on their location.

Altogether, now i agree that I-compounders have enough energy output to ignite fusion, but mechanically they have no way to put that energy in one spot without killing themselves, due to limitations of pushes/pulls to a straight line from user to metal.

To address the part with mirrors, in Deuterium and Tritium reactions most energy (between 66%-80%) is released in form of neutrons not photons, so most energy would be wasted. Also, even in more suitable reactions (like the Hydrogen-Hydrogen or Hydrogen-Helium) the photons released are gamma rays, and those cannot be reflected of mirrors due to their short wavelength.

These rounds are just evil, and tactically brilliant. Just one potential issue, do we know if even chemical compounds containing aluminum inhibits invested healing? I would think that yes they still do, but if not then having aluminum ignite would not provide the desired effect.

True, I got a bit of a tunnel vision on the reverse lashing. But post facto rationalization, reverse lashings use the least amount of light, making them more efficient (and potentially allowing this artillery to fire more rounds before requiring restocking with spheres).

EDIT: Also, the reverse lashing seems to be stronger than basic lashing (the whole ripping Pursuers head off incident), so for less light you get more acceleration, again increasing effectivness.

Steel does conduct electricity (beta radiation) though not as efficiently as some metals, with the added benefit of working as a metal mind. With properly advanced tech a person could take advantage of that. Steel is also one of the best shields against radiation.

Using deuterium and tritium would be more likely to lead to fusion and yield lithium another metal. The beryllium mirror perhaps on the chest is the key to the crushing force. A lurcher can only pull and must be pulling against something to ignite the fusion. Pulling the H^2 or H^3 against the beryllium provides the pressure from the other side and it being a mirror it will reflect and focus the light generated by the fusion. Beryllium is also very resistant to heat and may at least in part be replenished by the fusion since the fusion of H & Li or perhaps H^2/3 might produce Be which has just been pressed into the Be mirror. The mirror would need to be concave. A Be mirror would likely reflect neutrons as well though many would be consumed in producing more Be.

The coppermind I shared with you says that in reality it is density that is increased, but Wax never stored enough weight for his density to change appreciably much with regard to piercing threats. His metal minds also probably didn't have the capacity to store enough to make a noticeable difference in his density. Remember he could only get out what he could put in 1 to 1, but an Iron compounder who puts in 1 kg can burn that and produce 10 kg to store maybe more if they flare. 10 burns and stores 100 to 1,000 to 10,000 until the armor capacity is reached. Still even with his limited Iron ability his pushes were above average.

Reverse lashing have the weakness that the Radiant must remain in contact with the item pulling. Kal used a reverse lashing on Pursuers head by touching the ground to draw its head off its shoulders. Though we might find later that because of conservation of momentum a reverse lashing placed on a pebble could act like a guided missile while the stormlight lasted.

4 hours ago, theTruthshaper said:

Reverse lashings are not stronger than basic lashings, as far as I know, and Kaladin used multiple of them to rip Pursuers head off. The additional problem with this is that it gives the ammunition only a small distance to accelerate. Eg. if your railgun is a meter long, you'll need 2000 lashings to get the thing up to 200m/s (assuming each lashing is 10m/s^2)

Reverse lashings are most effective on things that are not grounded like arrows in flight and appear to only work so long as the surface the item is drawn to is in contact with the windrunner (unique to them), but it does use stormlight more efficiently and has the lowest power output over time. At least that is what the coppermind says.

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9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Reverse lashings are most effective on things that are not grounded like arrows in flight and appear to only work so long as the surface the item is drawn to is in contact with the windrunner (unique to them), but it does use stormlight more efficiently and has the lowest power output over time. At least that is what the coppermind says.

Hmm, it might have a low power, but I don't think a Windrunner could use 2000 of them easily.

 

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1 minute ago, theTruthshaper said:

Hmm, it might have a low power, but I don't think a Windrunner could use 2000 of them easily.

 

Nor would they need to use 2,000 reverse lashings. Kal didn't come anywhere near that to rip off Pursuers head. I didn't actually mention 2,000. Reverse lashings use less stormlight compared to effect than any other WR ability, To be sure I am clear RL's have a stronger effect with less stormlight, but are limited by whether the pulled object is on the ground and function only while the WR is touching the surface pulling.

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4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Nor would they need to use 2,000 reverse lashings. Kal didn't come anywhere near that to rip off Pursuers head. I didn't actually mention 2,000. Reverse lashings use less stormlight compared to effect than any other WR ability, To be sure I am clear RL's have a stronger effect with less stormlight, but are limited by whether the pulled object is on the ground and function only while the WR is touching the surface pulling.

Yeah, but I did. If you need to speed up something in a short distance you need a lot of acceleration

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14 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

Yeah, but I did. If you need to speed up something in a short distance you need a lot of acceleration

to achieve ballistic speeds you probably only need 30 or 40 lashings. 1 lashing about 10m/s^2 If you have a short distance maybe your projectile only pushes your target away. like way up in the sky.

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Just now, BenduLuke said:

to achieve ballistic speeds you probably only need 30 or 40 lashings. 1 lashing about 10m/s^2 If you have a short distance maybe your projectile only pushes your target away. like way up in the sky.

I am not sure what you are saying, but you can just use the v^2 = 2as to calculate. With v = 200m/s and s = 1m, you get a req. a = 20000m/s^2 which is 2000 lashings.

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47 minutes ago, theTruthshaper said:

I am not sure what you are saying, but you can just use the v^2 = 2as to calculate. With v = 200m/s and s = 1m, you get a req. a = 20000m/s^2 which is 2000 lashings.

one lash would propel a person about 30ft/s squared so would push them about a mile away in about 65 seconds. A rock propelled by 10 lashings would be traveling as fast as some bullets in less than a second. Unlike firearms in which bullets start slowing as soon as they exit the barrel the rock doesn't slow its acceleration until it runs out of stormlight so even a pebble could carry a person 1 mile into the sky in 65 seconds if it didn't just punch right through to begin with and with only 1 lashing. 10 to 40 lashings are entirely doable to create effective projectiles, and only aluminum alloys couldn't be used on their own (aluminum alloys are not affected by invested abilities). 1 lashing = 1G acceleration. 10 G's is the limit highly trained pilots can withstand for a very short length of time (seconds).

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