Theory: Odium's loophole with Dalinar

[Ashebear]

So ever since I read RoW I saw a potential loophole that Odium could exploit if he won the contest of champions. So the stakes of Dalinar losing are basically that Dalinar must serve Odium (either as a cognitive shadow fused, or alive) and that Odium still cannot leave the system regardless of the outcome. Anything else is less relevant to this theory. So the idea I had was that if Odium is able to win the challenge without killing Dalinar, then Dalinar should still be bonded to the Stormfather. At this point, what stops Odium from ordering Dalinar to speak for Honor's power and release Odium from the system? It was seen in previous books that Dalinar has this ability, when talking to Odium in the visions he almost accidentally did it as an example. The problems with this theory would mainly come from how the Stormfather's bond is affected by Dalinar aligning with Odium and if the bond breaks before the contest somehow (such as Ishar stealing it). I don't think losing the fight would directly break the bond between the Stormfather and Dalinar since he is still upholding an oath/deal he made with Odium. 

Anyways I'd love if anyone could pick holes in this idea as this was just my gut reaction/thought to Dalinar wording the deal the way he did. I haven't seen this idea talked about anywhere else, but I have only recently gotten into 17th shard stuff.

This is my first post here, so sorry if I messed something up with rules about spoilers, I tried to word everything in a way to have minimal spoilers, just in case.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Ashebear

[Bejarden]

He has to do it of his own volition 

Pretty sure about that

He can’t be forced to do it

Welcome to the Shard!

Edited February 28, 2021 by Bejardin1250
Politeness

[Harris]

The duel is 'to the death' so if Danilar puts himself as champion he ensured he is dead

[Mensadiu]

What if Odium chooses Gavinor as his champion and Dalinar is compeled to kill Elhokar's son? or someone as dear to Dalinar? Someone like Adolin perhaps?

I think that there is where the loophole is aiming to...

Also, it would be a crazy plot twist to have Adolin turned to Odium...

Regards!

[Frustration]

57 minutes ago, Mensadiu said:

What if Odium chooses Gavinor as his champion and Dalinar is compeled to kill Elhokar's son? 

It has to be a willing Champion

[Mensadiu]

Sure, but Odium - Taravangian is a quite a good manipulator... The idea for the loophole would be to put Dalinar in a position where he can't kill the other champion. One way is using a champion who is stronger than him or someone who Dalinar would not be willing to kill or fight at all...

this could be similar to the loophole used by Sadeas when Adolin got into that dueling against 4 shardbearers.

Also, Adolin could also be odium's champ... heavy plot twist-

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Mensadiu said:

Also, Adolin could also be odium's champ... heavy plot twist-

I'm starting to think it might not be the case since a lot of people are seemingly expecting it.

[Quivil]

On 2/26/2021 at 7:23 PM, Ashebear said:

So ever since I read RoW I saw a potential loophole that Odium could exploit if he won the contest of champions. So the stakes of Dalinar losing are basically that Dalinar must serve Odium (either as a cognitive shadow fused, or alive) and that Odium still cannot leave the system regardless of the outcome. Anything else is less relevant to this theory. So the idea I had was that if Odium is able to win the challenge without killing Dalinar, then Dalinar should still be bonded to the Stormfather. At this point, what stops Odium from ordering Dalinar to speak for Honor's power and release Odium from the system? It was seen in previous books that Dalinar has this ability, when talking to Odium in the visions he almost accidentally did it as an example. The problems with this theory would mainly come from how the Stormfather's bond is affected by Dalinar aligning with Odium and if the bond breaks before the contest somehow (such as Ishar stealing it). I don't think losing the fight would directly break the bond between the Stormfather and Dalinar since he is still upholding an oath/deal he made with Odium. 

Anyways I'd love if anyone could pick holes in this idea as this was just my gut reaction/thought to Dalinar wording the deal the way he did. I haven't seen this idea talked about anywhere else, but I have only recently gotten into 17th shard stuff.

This is my first post here, so sorry if I messed something up with rules about spoilers, I tried to word everything in a way to have minimal spoilers, just in case.

The problem with the bolded part: It's a contest to the death. Dalinar specified that it was to the death.

[Bejarden]

3 hours ago, Tani said:

The problem with the bolded part: It's a contest to the death. Dalinar specified that it was to the death.

If Dalinar becomes one of the Fused does he keep his Bond to the Stormfather 

I wouldn’t see why not

Does going to the Cognitive Realm sever Connections?

[Enter a username]

50 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Does going to the Cognitive Realm sever Connections?

Visiting the Cognitive Realm doesn't, though death does.

Another possible loophole-- the rules of the contest only defined a win condition: one champion kills the other; that side wins. There are a few ways to circumvent that, such as both champions killing each other at the exact same time, or both champions refusing to fight. If this happens, it would be possible for Odium to exploit this somehow. (Rayse likely almost certainly would have tried to escape Roshar with this, but Taravangian as Odium presents a huge unknown element.)

[Quivil]

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

If Dalinar becomes one of the Fused does he keep his Bond to the Stormfather 

I wouldn’t see why not

Does going to the Cognitive Realm sever Connections?

Death severs Nahel bonds (spren bonds).

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, Enter a username said:

both champions refusing to fight.

then they are no longer willing Champions.

[hskeeter]

The only loophole I see is if both champions die, and then it depends on who the champions are.  To me this would indicate Odium would be best served to use another person than Taravangian as champion.  Dalinar has already stated he is his own champion.  Things get messy if they both use proxies as champions, but I would expect Odium to use this as an excuse to break the agreement as well.

[Quick Ben]

I don't think Dalinar will end up being his own champion, given he has no shardblade or plate, he would be at a severe disadvantage against almost every person T-Odium could select as champion.

Loophole could be Adolin becomes T-Odiums champion, Renarin becomes Dalinar's, in this scenario, even with Adolin being influenced by Odium he can't bring himself to harm/kill Renarin, and Renarin isn't capable of beating Adolin as well as not wanting to. So ends a draw.

Or conversly the above scenario happens, Adolin is willing to Kill Renarin and Dalinar breaks the agreement when sees hes sons willing to kill one another, thus freeing T-Odium

Only way T-Odium can really "win" is by getting Dalinar to void the agreement as this is only way he can leave roshar

 

[Enter a username]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

then they are no longer willing Champions.

Still, no part of the contract defined what happens if the champions change their minds. There is potential for exploitation.

43 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

The only loophole I see is if both champions die, and then it depends on who the champions are.  To me this would indicate Odium would be best served to use another person than Taravangian as champion.  Dalinar has already stated he is his own champion.  Things get messy if they both use proxies as champions, but I would expect Odium to use this as an excuse to break the agreement as well.

I don't completely understand what you're saying here. (For one thing, Taravangian is Odium now.)

2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Loophole could be Adolin becomes T-Odiums champion, Renarin becomes Dalinar's,

I'd say this is less of a loophole and more of a specific instance not covered in the contract. (Based on my understanding, a loophole is a rule- or lack thereof- that allows someone to circumvent the intended purpose of something; in this case, a contract.)

[ScadrianTank]

I see several possibilities for the battle of champions ending in Odium's victory.

1. As foreshadowed by Wit, the duel will end in a tie. Odium is free, and all hell breaks loose.
2. Dalinar loses and dies, but Odium resurrects him the same way Harmony did Wax, without making Dalinar a Cognitive shadow. If he keeps his bond to the Stormfather, as @Ashebear suggested, then Odium will force Dalinar to release him.
3. Something crazy happens, like Dalinar Ascending even further to godhood, Cultivation yoinking a chunk of Honor's splintered power, or something like that.
4. Some combination of the points above.

Now, Book 5 will conclude the first half of the series. Knowing this, we should expect it to be even crazier than the ending of Hero of Ages. Maybe Odium loses but then tricks Dalinar into releasing him. Or Odium wins, and Cultivation Splinters him.

[hskeeter]

28 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

I don't completely understand what you're saying here. (For one thing, Taravangian is Odium now.)

Taravangian is Odium's vessel.  This is not the same thing as "being" Odium.  There is some interplay between the 2 personalities.  It is a fine distinction, but they can be separated and both live.  My point being the only loophole I see as possible is if both champions die and thus there is no winner.  This would make the contract void, especially if Dalinar is his own champion.  Then Odium would take the opportunity to do what he pleases.  

Hope that clears things up.

[Enter a username]

10 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

Taravangian is Odium's vessel.  This is not the same thing as "being" Odium.

When I said that, this is what I meant. What I intended to say was that with Taravangian now the vessel of Odium, he couldn't serve as his own champion. 

13 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

There is some interplay between the 2 personalities.  It is a fine distinction, but they can be separated and both live.

I would just like to point out that the Shard of Odium doesn't have a personality; it has an Intent. There is a difference.

20 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

My point being the only loophole I see as possible is if both champions die and thus there is no winner.  This would make the contract void, especially if Dalinar is his own champion. 

I fail to see how Dalinar being his own champion makes any difference.

[Quick Ben]

4 hours ago, Enter a username said:

I'd say this is less of a loophole and more of a specific instance not covered in the contract. (Based on my understanding, a loophole is a rule- or lack thereof- that allows someone to circumvent the intended purpose of something; in this case, a contract.)

Your right, loophole is wrong word, its an exploitable situation, to term it more accurately.

I still see it as most likely outcome though

[hskeeter]

23 hours ago, Enter a username said:

I fail to see how Dalinar being his own champion makes any difference.

If Dalinar is dead, and so is Odium's vessel is as well; we have no winner and thus Odium can claim the contract is void.

[Parzival]

Is there anything in the contract saying Odium can't be his own champion? Cause that would be a pretty easy fight 

[+Bliev]

T-odium, in reviewing the contract, notes that it's written as such that Odium can't possibly be freed, which is a problem since that's what he wants more than anything. T-odium says: 

Quote

Dalinar has set himself up...to fail. I CAN beat him.

And notes a subtle possibility that could still work in his favor. I think the contract being a contest to the death makes the OP's theory a bit less plausible, but I think it's more plausible that he gets Dalinar to break his oath. To not show up, say, or to refuse the battle at all. This could make the contract null and void?

Earlier, Odium (Rayse) says:

Quote

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

But this was for the contract they did *not* agree to. But I assume the consequences of oathbreaking are the same, regardless of the oath? So if Dalinar doesn't show up at the appointed time in the appointed place? If he is killed before hand? If he is delayed or imprisoned? Broken oath, right?

[Istari]

The exact words of the deal are: 

“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.” “Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.” “And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.” “It is done.”

What if Urithuru is destroyed? The deal cannot be fulfilled.

 

[Bejarden]

It says allowed to meet at urithiru

 I think that implies they will leave it untouched 

[Waffles]

In order for Odium to do something like choose Gavinor he would have to ensure Dalinar would be the champion (Szeth for instance would have zero issues slaying Gavinor before any possible renegotioation can take place).

Renarin's vision may have foreshadowed using him as Odium's champion against Dalinar. He has ties to Odium, he has forseen things and he might be able to take on an unexpected opponent like Szeth. And both opponents must be present at Urithuru, its likely there may no way to get Gavinor there without it being obvious who his champion may be but Renarin will very likely be present when it appears no champion is present.