Slatrification retcon: yay or nay

[Honorless]

What do you all think of Brandon wanting to retcon Slatrification? Did you like/dislike Slatrification as an element of Sand Mastery? Do you agree that Slatrification needed to go from a narrative perspective?

Personally, I think that Slatrification retcon was kinda unnecessary. I've seen people complain that Slatrification was game-breaking for Sand Mastery, which I completely disagree with:
A) you need White Sand in the first place, away from the Dayside desert, a Sand Master will have to carry around White Sand in a gourd like a discount Gaara
B )  the sand becomes inert after use and takes a while to recharge, with modern Investiture devices and/or just more abundant ambient Investiture this problem might be solved but that's another weakness and an opening
C) Slatrification would've converted sand to water. If the Sand Master isn't in Dayside's Kerztian desert that just reduces the resources the Sand Master has at his disposal. One does not get instantly rehydrated by drinking water and trying to do that might in fact kill you
D) Sand Mastery isn't very versatile tool compared to other Invested Arts users like Surgebinders or Mistborn, and   seems to be on the higher end of required training. Every level of power breakthrough is physiologically expensive and requires even more training to integrate into combat

I think there's sufficient cost to the magic without Slatrification

It would've been really amazing to see a skilled Sand Master trying to balance out Sand Mastery's rotating handicaps of sand, water & Investiture in the future.

Narratively, all it needed to be was a high enough level skill so as to be inaccessible to the protagonists, which it already was.

Slatrification also seems thematically very appropriate for the setting. Having the power to convert sand into water in the desert, as well as using an opponent's Investiture as fuel (White Sand recharges from kinetic Investiture), when Taldain gets into space-faring era.

Update: the retcon is now official. The edited version will be available in the omnibus.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Honorless
added an update

[Quantus]

I think I support the change, or at least see the justification. The danger with slatrification is more about the upper bounds, in that it circumvents the primary limiter, much like if a 10th heightening person could actually cycle from grey to white and back, completely negating the Color aspect of the awakening magic system.  I aslo suspect that he's thinking more about how White Sand is going to impact the era4 trans-planetary cross-culture, more than just its Taldain setting. 

Specific thoughts:

a) By cosmere standard White sand is relatively easy to cultivate, and can be charged by the presence of any Investiture (including a nearby Radiant).  This makes it one of the more universally accessible (and potentially renewable) Investiture storage methods available.  Less elaky than Gems, more universally accessible than metallic arts, 

Not really, at least in the wider cosmere.  It charged a jar pretty quickly just in the presence of one relatively "quiet" Surge, so being in a Storm, near a big ball of Kinetic investiture like Elantris, a Perpendicularity, etc. should blast it white in no time.  And this is at least one big area where it shines: it can convert investiture.

c) Here's where the narrative danger happens: Power-leveling.  With a big enough supply of sand the Master could channel investiture infinitely, without limit, and thus potentially blast the strength of their Master right up to Sliver levels since Use (and Overuse) directly increases your total strength.  Imagine if a radiant got slightly stronger every time they used a surge, and then they power-leveled every Highstorm.  

d) I strongly doubt that it will stay that way, purely because I said precisely the same thing about the Metallic Arts once upon a time, yet we know that equally limited magic system can be hacked into all kinds of weird things including full FTL space-flight.  

Edited February 25, 2021 by Quantus

[Honorless]

Again, Sand Mastery has a trifold limiter, Investiture, sand, water. On Taldain, it's the relative scarcity-err, no not scarcity, the Investiture is widely distributed, just at low intensity. Sand is almost everywhere on Dayside, and Sand Masters do keep some on their person for indoor emergencies, I suppose. And water.

Go off-world and the amount of sand you have available on your person itself becomes the limiter. Also, Mastery dehydrates, just drinking water isn't going to instantly heal the Sand Master. Dehydration by itself is already a more powerful limiter than on any other magic system that we've seen. It's just a softer limit than the hard limits of, say, Allomancy: how much metal you have on you or Surgebinding, how much Light you have on you. Don't underestimate dehydration. Also, power leveling, really? Look at what the other magic systems can do: look at the Knights Radiant, the Elantrians. Can anyone really say, that even with Slatrification, Sand Masters are OP compared to them? Overmastery is nothing like, say saying the next Ideal, it does not provide instant level-up, and the boost that they get is... more ribbons of sand. Compare that to the Surges or Awakening or the Aons, they are very much lacking in versatility compared to other Invested Arts. 

In combat, drinking water is not going to solve your problems, you'll still be weak from dehydration. If you do Overmastery, that's it, you're out. You'll get a boost, later, if you survive your opponent now without access to Sand Mastery. How much sand can one carry on their person? How often can they afford to Slatrify and dwindle the amount of sand they have? We don't have the conversion rate, but really, with dehydration already as a problem, Sand Masters don't get any physical boosts, if anything they need to make sure they're in good shape to have good endurance if they want to be healthy with constant dehydration.

[Quantus]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Again, Sand Mastery has a trifold limiter, Investiture, sand, water. On Taldain, it's the relative scarcity-err, no not scarcity, the Investiture is widely distributed, just at low intensity. Sand is almost everywhere on Dayside, and Sand Masters do keep some on their person for indoor emergencies, I suppose. And water.

Go off-world and the amount of sand you have available on your person itself becomes the limiter. Also, Mastery dehydrates, just drinking water isn't going to instantly heal the Sand Master. Dehydration by itself is already a more powerful limiter than on any other magic system that we've seen. It's just a softer limit than the hard limits of, say, Allomancy: how much metal you have on you or Surgebinding, how much Light you have on you. Don't underestimate dehydration. Also, power leveling, really? Look at what the other magic systems can do: look at the Knights Radiant, the Elantrians. Can anyone really say, that even with Slatrification, Sand Masters are OP compared to them? Overmastery is nothing like, say saying the next Ideal, it does not provide instant level-up, and the boost that they get is... more ribbons of sand. Compare that to the Surges or Awakening or the Aons, they are very much lacking in versatility compared to other Invested Arts. 

In combat, drinking water is not going to solve your problems, you'll still be weak from dehydration. If you do Overmastery, that's it, you're out. You'll get a boost, later, if you survive your opponent now without access to Sand Mastery. How much sand can one carry on their person? How often can they afford to Slatrify and dwindle the amount of sand they have? We don't have the conversion rate, but really, with dehydration already as a problem, Sand Masters don't get any physical boosts, if anything they need to make sure they're in good shape to have good endurance if they want to be healthy with constant dehydration.

What are you arguing exactly? That Slatrification doesnt break Sand mastery, that it doesnt break the wider Investiture economy of the Cosmere, or that you thing the actual known uses of Sand Mastery makes it weaker than other Magic systems and thus should be "balanced" against them by letting them bypass one of it's limiters?

 

The key points I see:

• In the context of just Taldain, it lets you power-level your base strength of sand mastery
• In the context of the wider cosmere, it's one of the easiest known ways to convert different kinds of Investiture. 
• In the context of the emerging trans-planetary Investiture economy, If the microbes on the sand can be cultivated off-world then it becomes wildly more important.  It will become the Spice that must Flow.
• In the context of relative Power balance of the magic systems, I fully expect that Sand Mastery can do at least as much with Investiture and general Realmics as the Metallic Arts can, with enough scientific development.  But also, Relative Power Balance has never been one of the goals
• I believe there is a WOB that I cannot find where he says he has no real intension of "Balancing" the magic systems against each other the way Ive come to expect from way too much DnD/table-top gaming.

[Honorless]

Huh, interesting comparison, and if it is the easiest way of Investiture conversion, that would indeed be invaluable. The microbes might have loved Roshar for the Highstorms: all that Investiture in the air! Except they're also, y'know, storms, so there'll be water, which will just cause them to lose the Investiture again. Perhaps they'll like the Scadrian Mist more, if they can access it, it seems locked.

I'm sure there are creative uses of Sand Mastery, but the other magic systems have effects that are less directly physical and more esoteric, which is not a toolkit that Sand Mastery seems to have. I think the Sand might've reacted a bit too explosively with Baon, at the end there, for instance, so that might hint at greater possibilities. We also see how creatively Kenton used a single Ribbon of sand. We don't really know how one is Initiated or by what mechanism Overmastery makes a Sand Master stronger, there might be more to find there. Perhaps other magics on Taldain *looks at Darkside* will have greater versatility. The Shifting Colors / Skycolors might have something, which Skathan might've unlocked.

As for balancing, that's my point exactly! There's no need for balancing, balance is already shot with Elantrians in home turf and the Knights Radiant, if they can get spren off-world and use Connection hacking to use AonDor off-world... Instead of no Slatrification imposing a hard limit, a Sand Master having to maintain a balance between sand, water and Investiture for extended combat would've been more interesting imo. Anyway, I'm arguing the first, that Slatrification doesn't break Sand Mastery for me, it makes it more interesting. Besides, Soulcasters and Elantrians can already turn one thing into another, turning sand into water is just an even more... poetic expression of magic.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Honorless

[Frustration]

I don't think Slatrification breaks Sandmastery

[Bejarden]

Honestly I don’t particularly like it for a simple reason:

A: It’s mentioned twice and never used

B: The only thing it can ever help with is killing a sandling 

If also doesn’t add much because if you use 5 drops of water to create 5 drops of water you gained nothing.

If Brandon would rewrite it to be more important I would want it to stay    if not then it can go 

[Honorless]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:35 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Honestly I don’t particularly like it for a simple reason:

A: It’s mentioned twice and never used

B: The only thing it can ever help with is killing a sandling 

If also doesn’t add much because if you use 5 grains of sand to create 5 drops of water you gained nothing.

If Brandon would rewrite it to be more important I would want it to stay    if not then it can go 

Oof, lol, yeah, if anything it's a wee bit underwhelming in a way, I suppose.

Hmm... I think it was mentioned in the beginning, in the test and at the end, during the duel. Brandon wanted to retcon it by making it more of an in-world myth but Kenton & others talk about it as if they had personally seen it being used, so some of that dialogue might need to get adjusted.

Yeah, it's only mentioned and never plays a role in the story. It was already inaccessible to the protagonists, so it doesn't really need to be removed from the story for narrative reasons.

Lol, well, it's very helpful in killing Sandlings though! And it will help against dehydration, slowly, unlike, say, Stormlight healing, but every bit counts.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Honorless

[Comatose]

I agree that I always saw the built in limits of slatrification as sufficient.  Firstly, Slatrification presumably depletes both (a) invested sand and (b) the Sandmaster's hydration level, so while it is creating a new resource, it is partially depleting two.  For me it kind of functioned like the spell in Skyrim that lets you convert health into magicka - it's more about resource management than anything else.  Secondly, as others have pointed out, creating water is not an instant cure for dehydration.  The Sandmaster would still need to drink and metabolize the water in order to feel the benefits, and there's a physical limit to how much the Sandmaster could ingest at once.  While it is correct that under ideal circumstances, slatrication could allow a Sandmaster to use their powers indefinitely, in many situations this perfect storm of circumstances will likely not be available. 

I always loved the mysticism of slatrification - turning sand into water in a desert just as a certain 'wow' factor that gave Sand Mastery an extra 'oopmh'.  I also liked that it has so many non-combat applications (saving a group of travelers from dehydration for example).   I get the need to rebalance sometimes, but from my perspective it will be missed.  Really the issue could be solved by making it so you are dehydrated proportionately to the water you create.  This would make any sandmastery benefit from slatrification cost neutral in ideal circumstances, and negative overall (because it is also costing you time and investiture).  It would become less about gaming the system, and more about using a cool power creatively or for resource management.  

EDIT:  I forgot to mention - I think 'power-levelling' through overmastery has diminishing returns right?  So it would more be a way to fast track progress than to ascend to sliver levels of power.  

[Weltall]

Yeah, I'm in favor of Brandon retconning it out (like he's stated he wants to) should he release a rewritten version of the novel in the future. I mean, he's already kind of retconned it once...

2 hours ago, Comatose said:

I agree that I always saw the built in limits of slatrification as sufficient.  Firstly, Slatrification presumably depletes both (a) invested sand and (b) the Sandmaster's hydration level, so while it is creating a new resource, it is partially depleting two.

The way it's implied to work in the prose version (where it does briefly appear) is that it offers a net gain in hydration, so either it doesn't deplete the water in the user's body at all or the net gain from the sand-transformed water outweighs the depletion. That's what's broken about it, since the Invested sand can be found everywhere meaning that even the depletion of the sand itself isn't really a huge limiting factor.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Weltall

[Comatose]

18 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Yeah, I'm in favor of Brandon retconning it out (like he's stated he wants to) should he release a rewritten version of the novel in the future. I mean, he's already kind of retconned it once...

The way it's implied to work in the prose version (where it does briefly appear) is that it offers a net gain in hydration, so either it doesn't deplete the water in the user's body at all or the net gain from the sand-transformed water outweighs the depletion. That's what's broken about it, since the Invested sand can be found everywhere meaning that even the depletion of the sand itself isn't really a huge limiting factor.

This is what I meant by 'ideal circumstances' though.  Unless the net gain is huge, using it effectively would still require continuous sand supply and, more importantly, time to collect, drink, and metabolize the water.  So someone could hypothetically continuously float sand around all day and slatrify to rehydrate or they could do the easier thing and just have barrels of water handy if they are staying in one place.  However, if they are on the run or in the middle of the fight, it wouldn't really be practical to do that (collect sand in container, slatrify, drink, repeat).  Could it give someone a boost so they can keep going a little longer?  Sure.  Does it mean they are a fighting machine that can take out an army without overmastering?  I honestly don't think so.  

I definitely see where people are coming from, but for me, in the circumstances, I don't think it would be that broken in practice.  Basically I think the answer could have been to clarify some of the mechanics, and maybe heighten the cost (take away the net gain maybe) instead of scrapping the concept entirely.  

I also see slatrification primarily as an 'out of combat' type of skill, which to me makes brokenness less of a concern I guess.

[Frustration]

I almost feel that removing Slatrification underpowers it compared to everything else in the Cosmere.

[Weltall]

On 2/25/2021 at 7:30 AM, Quantus said:

I believe there is a WOB that I cannot find where he says he has no real intension of "Balancing" the magic systems against each other the way Ive come to expect from way too much DnD/table-top gaming.

Found it:

Quote

Questioner

Just in the cosmere alone, are there any--Do you believe there are any specific magic systems that are stronger than the others, or have an advantage? Or do they kind of even out?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, do-- Yeah. Do any of the magics have advantages or stronger-- Definitely some are stronger than others. Definitely. There is no attempt made on my part to power balance between magic systems and things. Power balancing is for RPGs where it's very important, it's not for storytelling.

A lot of people like to ask the "Who would win, X or Y?" sort of thing, and I don't get into a lot of that, I usually say, "Well, what's the situation?" I'm not big on the-- I will, if people clash, or if different powers clash, I will write the situation, but it's so conditional. So I have a hard time with these cage match things that people really like to do and things like that, because they're fun, but as an author I'm like, "I can come up with a dozen situations where either one of them wins or someone else does". Right? That's what you do, in writing. You say, what is the context of this?

But that's a tangent from your question, which is the powers are not equal. The Shards were generally equal. Some have given up more power than others.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

[Ixthos]

11 hours ago, Weltall said:

Found it:

 

There is some irony in that quote that, in a sense, the magic that is strongest implies the shards that power it are weaker than the others, though again the idea of infinity and the amount that can be accessed is key, as well as the amount used being so small.

 

I always thought of Slatrification as being a low-yield form of Soulcasting, turning one particular substance into one other particular substance, using similar principles but at a much lower strength than Soulcasting (or flipping the view, that Surgebinding is the high powered form of a lot of other systems, with Slatrification being one of the "prototypes" for Soulcasting, just as using a Perpendicularity is the "prototype" for Transportation).

I've got mixed feelings about the idea of Slatrification being removed. On the one hand it does make Sand Mastery seem cleaner, its about controlling the movement of sand, but on the other hand it feels like a cool and interesting twist to the system is gone. If it had never originally been a part of it, then I probably would have objected to it being added, but having it originally present and then removed, that feels a little off. Also, what happened to the microbs when sand is Slatrified? They facilitate it, but do they turn into water as well, or just the sand?

[Weltall]

We know that Cognitive perception is a huge deal and almost nobody seems to think of the sand and the little beasties living on it as separate, it's just 'the sand'. So I imagine that if Slatrification works like Soulcasting on a fundamental level and the Sand Master is basically telling the combined entity that is the Invested sand that it really wants to become water, and it happens. We know that when magics appear to be doing similar things, it's generally because they're working on the same underlying principles so two forms of 'turn X into Y' probably work very similarly in a mechanical sense.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Weltall

[StanLemon]

Eh, I'm not a fan of the retcon as it was an advantage of Sandmastery. Sandmaster is already fairly underwhelming as a magic system as it is. And it's not like there aren't other examples of infinite gains from other magic systems, namely Bondsmiths and Compounders. And it isn't even as broken as those examples within its own magic system as those are within their respective magic systems

Edited March 3, 2021 by StanLemon

[AeonaRin]

I was ambivalent until now that Secret Project 1 is out.

Spoiler

Sandmastery works like Aether spores, and there's an in-world myth about a 13th kind of spore which white or black. I think Autonomy remade and Aether, like Odium possibly remade the Unmade. If true, Sandmastery should be consistent with Aether magic.