Neroz

Dalinar is doing something crazy on accident

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Hello! This is my first proper post on the Forums, so feel free to roast me and my theories! I am going to include some Realmatics basics, just in case someone wanders on this post specifically looking for context. 

Ever since finishing Oathbringer, I have been obsessed with figuring out what Unity is, much like everyone else who read it.

It's completely possible this has been talked about before, and if so, I'd appreciate a link to the thread!

I believe that Dalinar is unintentionally reforming the 4 "deceased" shards: Dominion, Devotion, Honor, and Ambition.

I built this theory on 3 distinct building blocks. Rayse's Freudian slip in the OB Finale, Harmony's suspicions that he is being kept in the dark, and what I consider to be an implied mechanic of the Spiritual Realm.

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First and foremost, my basic understanding of the realms and how distance correlates between them is based entirely on perception.

The Physical Realm is the largest in terms of space, planets separated by vast swathes of space. 

The Cognitive Realm is significantly smaller, as things that originate in the Cognitive Realm are born from perception. As there is no consciousness or matter to perceive, space is not rendered and borders are determined by where in physical space those groups of physical consciousness exist. I.E, The Expanse of Vapors borders the Rosharan Shadesmar, therefore the planet of Scadrial  has a direct route through physical space where no other consciousness exists.

There are a few side effects that make that particular relationship REALLY spicy.

The Spiritual Realm, existing outside of Time/Space, is even smaller. All that is contained within it exists in one singular point.

When Dalinar opens the perpendicularity, he releases not only a flood of Honors investiture due to the physical location of Roshar, he began to reform the splinters and unclaimed powers within using the powers of an unrestricted Bondsmith. **

Dalinar has a distinct connection to all 4 shards in question. He is the King of Urithiru, a position he turmoiled over in Alethkar and ultimately resulted in the death of Elhokar and the occupation of his country, linking him to Dominion. In the face of the Voren clergy, he has defended his newfound Devotion despite a lifetime of Voren piety. He strives in all things to be closer to Honor, to embody it truly, by refusing to allow his failures to define him. His Ambition, abandoned in the name of honor to secure his brothers rule at the cost of everything the Blackthorn truly wanted.

These factors make him an IDEAL Vessel, as* he is intimately familiar with all 4 intents and has proven mastery over their influence within him.

*Edit* I don't think Dalinar is going to become a Vessel, poor choice of words. Rather, I think he is un-splintering them on accident. The combination of Honors seed to unite, his lack of awareness in regard to shards other then the Rosharan trio, and his relationship to those shards intents makes the perfect recipe for some wild Bondsmith evolution.

** Edit ** D&Ds Investiture is crammed into the Cognitive Realm on Sel by Rayse. However, I find it likely there are Spiritual remnant of those shards accessible by Dalinar. I also don't believe that Investiture will forever stay in the Cognitive Realm, due to the innate investiture leakage between realms that causes events like the filling of the Well Of Ascension.

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Secondly,

Rayse's response to Dalinar proclaiming himself Unity is WEIRD. WE killed you. The only instance of a shard being killed by a WE is Dominion & Devotion VS Odium & Autonomy.*

*Edit*(If Mercy is a traitor, this could also be Ambition. That would leave Sels shards uninvolved and Unity would be Dalinars Intent while channeling Ambition and Honor together.)

The death of Ambition is still somewhat mysterious, and mostly depends on Mercy's disposition. I'm liable to think Mercy is a traitor.

We know Rayse went after Ambition specifically, defeating Dominion and Devotion in his hunt. If he was threatened by Ambitions intent, I believe it is a logical assumption that Ambition, by the nature of its shard, would inevitably try to bring the shards together to remake Adonalsium. This would be the ultimate expression of Ambition, as Adonalsium is the single most prolific being known to the Cosmere at this moment.

Unity is not a DawnShard, nor a combination of a few shards, it is the combination of all 4 shards Odium has defeated combined with Dalinars impeccable Soul-engrained love of all things Honorable.

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And finally, 

Harmony believes the other shards are withholding information from him. This is the weakest of my branches, but I still believe it holds strong. 

A compound Shard is new to the Cosmere, but it must be assumed they have the potential to be wildly strong. 

However, the combination of shards can result in wildly different shards depending on the Intent of the Vessel.

With Sazed, we found Harmony. With Dalinar, Unity. 

When Sazed, the relatively gentle and peaceful Terrisman is given divinity, it resulted in a relatively gentle and peaceful god.

When Dalinar, the man whos sole purpose for several books was to unite the world in preparation for war on a mission from god, is given divinity, he will become something incredible. (Incredibly dangerous as well)

The only thing MOST of the shards have to gain from withholding information from Sazed is their own power, so rather then assist Sazed in understanding his power, they ignore or disinform him while slowly working to ensure he cannot channel his power in an effective way.

Dalinar would not have this redundant intent, making him a very scary force for someone like Rayse and Odium.

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All in all, I'm fairly convinced Dalinar is reforging the shards splintered in the Spiritual Realm, likely to be taken up by others in his stead. ( I seriously predict Dalinar will die in the next book)

By having a Connection with the core Intent of the 4 shards, and the power that comes in not knowing what a Bondsmith is capable of, Dalinar is accidentally fixing a massive chunk of Adonalsiums power after his naughty Kids splintered his shards.

Edited by Neroz
Fixing poor wording and added notes where I got information wrong.
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the amount Autonomy helped in splintering D&D is questionable.

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Welcome to the Shard!

37 minutes ago, Neroz said:

When Dalinar opens the perpendicularity, he releases not only a flood of Honors investiture due to the physical location of Roshar, he began to reform the splinters and unclaimed powers within using the powers of an unrestricted Bondsmith.

One little problem here: The Investiture that makes up Devotion and Dominion isn't located in the Spiritual Realm, it's been stuffed into the location-dependant Cognitive Realm. This is the reason Selish magic is region-locked and why the planet is so dangerous to travel to. Opening up a Perpendicularity affects all three realms but the Physical and Cognitive components of it are limited to the area right around Dalinar, meaning there's no way for him to be accessing any D&D Investiture.

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Dalinar has a distinct connection to all 4 shards in question. He is the King of Urithiru, connecting him to Dominion. In the face of the Voren clergy, he has defended his newfound Devotion. He strives in all things to be closer to Honor, to embody it truly. His Ambition, abandoned in the name of honor to secure his brothers rule.

Brandon has said that we shouldn't take that sort of thing too literally and that people can exhibit traits associated with a Shard's intent without having any connection to that Shard:

Quote

vanahian

We know that Bavadin has several 'avatars' allocated at some Shardworlds, major and minor, over the cosmere...is Austre from Nalthis one of them? Is the Wyrn of the Fjordell Empire or Jaddeth one of them?

Or if we recall what the followers of Shu Dereth believes that 'Jaddeth rewards devotion in his followers, as well as ambition' + something you said some time ago about the ramifications of Ambition demise... Is the Wyrn or Jaddeth Himself connected with Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

You can expect things on Sel to be either Dominion or Devotion. People can be ambitious--even Shards--and reward ambition even if they're not specifically tied to the Shard of Ambition.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

 

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The only confirmed instance of a shard being killed by a WE is Dominion & Devotion VS Odium & Autonomy.

The WoB that people have used to argue that Autonomy was involved with the killing of D&D is so vaguely worded that it doesn't actually tell us anything significant. Bavadin could have told Odium 'Hey, I hear Aona and Skai have set up shop on Sel' but had no direct role in what followed and it would fit the bill. She could have been taking the Shardic equivalent of a stroll, bumped into Odium and by sheer chance that led to him turning left at Albuquerque the Nexus of Transition instead of right and so he found his way to Sel slightly earlier than he would have otherwise and that would fit the bill too.

Edited by Weltall
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21 minutes ago, Weltall said:

One little problem here: The Investiture that makes up Devotion and Dominion isn't located in the Spiritual Realm, it's been stuffed into the location-dependant Cognitive Realm. This is the reason Selish magic is region-locked and why the planet is so dangerous to travel to. Opening up a Perpendicularity affects all three realms but the Physical and Cognitive components of it are limited to the area right around Dalinar, meaning there's no way for him to be accessing any D&D Investiture.

I've always found that really strange. Odium, using the power of a shard, somehow managed to completely cram the entirety of 2 shards into the cognitive realm.

There's the innate leakage of Investiture between realms, so maybe some of D&Ds investiture is being reabsorbed by the spiritual realm over time?

Another oddity I remember is the Selish Shardpool talking to Raoden, implying there is some scrap of intellect applied to the Selish investiture,

29 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Brandon has said that we shouldn't take that sort of thing too literally and that people can exhibit traits associated with a Shard's intent without having any connection to that Shard:

That's completely fair, I am definitely drawing some conclusions here. My theory for how Dalinar's story ends is not a particularly pleasant one, but it's difficult to overlook that several of his most important character developments do align with the intents of the currently deceased shards when hunting for the big Unity truth.

33 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The WoB that people have used to argue that Autonomy was involved with the killing of D&D is so vaguely worded that it doesn't actually tell us anything significant. Bavadin could have told Odium 'Hey, I hear Aona and Skai have set up shop on Sel' but had no direct role in what followed and it would fit the bill. She could have been taking the Shardic equivalent of a stroll, bumped into Odium and by sheer chance that led to him turning left at Albuquerque the Nexus of Transition instead of right and so he found his way to Sel slightly earlier than he would have otherwise and that would fit the bill too.

Another very true point. Autonomy certainly isn't guaranteed to be the accomplice, but it seems overwhelmingly likely there are shards who want to further Odiums goal of self preservation for the very same goal themselves. 

Imagining that Autonomy has nothing to do with the death of D&D, perhaps the "We" in "We killed you" is referring to a different shard (Mercy). It could also be a strange moment of disassociation on Rayses part, the consciousness of Rayse and Odium colliding over the shock of seeing Dalinar achieve something he thought was impossible, whether it be all 4 or simply an alteration of the intent of a Shard. 

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44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

the amount Autonomy helped in splintering D&D is questionable.

Very true, it's my personal canon, completely subject to change. Some of the other ideas I've been juggling are Mercy, or even a collision of Rayse referring to himself and Odium in the third person in that moment of volatile emotions.

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14 hours ago, Neroz said:

When Dalinar opens the perpendicularity, he releases not only a flood of Honors investiture due to the physical location of Roshar, he began to reform the splinters and unclaimed powers within using the powers of an unrestricted Bondsmith.

Dalinar has a distinct connection to all 4 shards in question. He is the King of Urithiru, connecting him to Dominion. In the face of the Voren clergy, he has defended his newfound Devotion. He strives in all things to be closer to Honor, to embody it truly. His Ambition, abandoned in the name of honor to secure his brothers rule.

These factors make him an IDEAL Vessel, as he is intimately familiar with all 4 intents and has proven mastery over their influence within him.

Dominion is not just the Shard of being king, it's also the Shard of Conquest which is something Dalinar is moving away from, as evidence by him appointing the Mink to replace him as the one who oversee the strategy

Devotion is not the Shard of being devoted to something, it's closer to the Shard of Love. I won't say Dalinar doesn't love, he definitely loves, but let's compare to Adolin

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That was the sort of thing Adolin did. Nobody bowed when he entered; instead they cheered and raised cups. Adolin Kholin wasn’t some distant brightlord or general who sat in his keep and pronounced edicts, tyrannical or wise. He was the type of general who drank with his men and learned the names of every soldier.

Dalinar disapproved. In most cases Kaladin would have as well. But … this was Adolin. He’d have gone mad if he’d been forced to remain aloof. It went against every traditional Alethi protocol of leadership, but Adolin made it work. So who was Kaladin to judge?

If someone from SA were to pick up Devotion it'd be Adolin not Dalinar

 

About Ambition on the other hand, I could see that happening, Unity does seem like a stupid name for Honour+Ambition and apparently Ambition isn't Splintered so that'd probably be the easiest for Dalinar to fuse with Honour

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)
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7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Dominion is not just the Shard of being king, it's also the Shard of Conquest which is something Dalinar is moving away from, as evidence by him appointing the Mink to replace him as the one who oversee the strategy

Devotion is not the Shard of being devoted to something, it's closer to the Shard of Love. I won't say Dalinar doesn't love, he definitely loves, but let's compare to Adolin

I probably should have elaborated on where I think Dalinar is headed. I don't think he will actually become a Vessel or Ascend, but rather that his personal journey is what allows him to effect any of the shards in question. It would actually be pretty cool if he managed to fix the shards for others to host.

Dalinars journey has led him through several interpretations of what he considers Honorable, and by extension, he has a deep personal understanding of "honorable" intent.

By having him thoroughly explore the concepts of Dominion, Devotion, and Ambition in both positive and negative aspects, he is being turned into something dangerous in the same way Wax is being shaped by Harmony.

Dalinar also isn't aware of Ambition, Dominion, or Devotion, so when he reaches into the Spiritual Realm he would likely think he was only touching Honor, allowing him to accidentally start the process of healing the 3 properly busted up shards.

I also don't believe Dalinar even assumes he CAN become a shard at this point. I do believe that the journey that Honor has led him on has steeled his intent to unite, which while Dalinar may interpret that as the people of Roshar, we know the shards have larger plans that have been around a very long time.

 

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57 minutes ago, mathiau said:

apparently Ambition isn't Splintered

That seems to be a mistake on the questioner's part, because both Khriss in AU and Brandon in other WoBs have said that Ambition was Splintered, and Harmony says something similar.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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21 hours ago, Neroz said:

He strives in all things to be closer to Honor, to embody it truly.

I see this on this site alot

Where does the idea that Dalinar is this truly honourable person come from ?

Because he bonded the stormfather ?

Personally think you would struggle to find Dalinar acting honourably in the series, and the times he doesn't act honourably far outweight the times he does.

That quote refers to Kaladin much more then it does to Dalinar

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2 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Where does the idea that Dalinar is this truly honourable person come from ?

Because he bonded the stormfather ?

The honor I see in Dalinar is in his growth and responsibility. As a leader he will inevitably have to dirty his hands, but its how he uses that experience that makes him honorable. Where someone like Taravangian sees his inevitable accidental crimes as a reason to commit MORE crime, Dalinar uses that turmoil to steel himself to prevent the very same crimes. 

The Blackthorn is his youthful and brutal self a twisted and immature view of what honor is, but the Dalinar we see is a man coming to terms with the fact he was and will continue to be wrong if he continues as he is.

While I don't think Dalinar gains any honor simply for regretting his actions, He does earn it by proving he can and will be better.

He no longer hides from his weakness, he embraces it.

His bond with the Stormfather and the Bondsmith Oaths are the journey of Dalinars redemption to me. All Radiants are broken, the Bondsmiths are no different. 

33 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

That quote refers to Kaladin much more then it does to Dalinar

I completely agree, Kaladin is an honorable fellow, even if he isn't very nice lmao.

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5 minutes ago, Neroz said:

The honor I see in Dalinar is in his growth and responsibility. As a leader he will inevitably have to dirty his hands, but its how he uses that experience that makes him honorable. Where someone like Taravangian sees his inevitable accidental crimes as a reason to commit MORE crime, Dalinar uses that turmoil to steel himself to prevent the very same crimes. 

The Blackthorn is his youthful and brutal self a twisted and immature view of what honor is, but the Dalinar we see is a man coming to terms with the fact he was and will continue to be wrong if he continues as he is.

While I don't think Dalinar gains any honor simply for regretting his actions, He does earn it by proving he can and will be better.

He no longer hides from his weakness, he embraces it.

His bond with the Stormfather and the Bondsmith Oaths are the journey of Dalinars redemption to me. All Radiants are broken, the Bondsmiths are no different. 

I completely agree, Kaladin is an honorable fellow, even if he isn't very nice lmao.

What growth ? Dalinar didnt grow to be a better person, he was "pruned" (is the word i see used on here alot, remade/unmade is perhaps more accurate imo) to a different person. He didn't battle his demons and achieve personal growth, he got rid of everything "bad" about himself which allowed himself to think himself a completly different person, to the point that when he remembers what he did he is able to say hes a different person now. That is not what personal growth is.

You oversimplify Taravangian imo, he didn't commit crimes based on accidental crimes, he hatched a plan, a flawed plan, and executed it. Believing what he did to be what was required. He might of been misguided but not any worse then Dalinar.

Also Dalinars third oath, something like "if i fall, i will rise a better man" leaves alot to be desired in relation to accepting his weakness and finding redemption in my opinion.

 

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5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

What growth ? Dalinar didnt grow to be a better person, he was "pruned" (is the word i see used on here alot, remade/unmade is perhaps more accurate imo) to a different person. He didn't battle his demons and achieve personal growth, he got rid of everything "bad" about himself which allowed himself to think himself a completly different person, to the point that when he remembers what he did he is able to say hes a different person now. That is not what personal growth is.

When shards are involved everything gets weird. If Dalinar hadn't grown when the memories of Evi returned, he would've fallen at the Battle of Thaylen Field.

It's also important to remember he was being affected by Nergaoul. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it does make it more reasonable it took divine intervention to save him.

He was certainly given a pass, and I don't think we've seen the end of Dalinars punishment. I don't see him being truly redeemed, but rather acting till his last breath trying to.

9 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

You oversimplify Taravangian

I am 100% oversimplifying Big Daddy T. He is an incredibly complex and entertaining character. I shouldn't have mentioned him, but I was thinking of this conversation and Dalinars emotional response to it. 

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But our laws will claim innocent men - for all judges are flawed, as is our knowledge. Eventually, you will execute someone who does not deserve it. This is the burden society must carry in exchange for order.

 

14 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Also Dalinars third oath, something like "if i fall, i will rise a better man" leaves alot to be desired in relation to accepting his weakness and finding redemption in my opinion.

It leaves room for him to fail, true, but there are 2 more oaths that will be even harder for him to swear. I don't think he will be capable of all 5, personally. 

Striving for honor does not necessarily mean achieving it, but I do respect his efforts to achieve it. 

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20 minutes ago, Neroz said:

When shards are involved everything gets weird. If Dalinar hadn't grown when the memories of Evi returned, he would've fallen at the Battle of Thaylen Field.

This is where our opinions differ.

You see it that he grew to become a man able to handle what he did. I see it as he was made/unmade/forged, into a man that could handle what he did. So i don't see it as growth

22 minutes ago, Neroz said:

It's also important to remember he was being affected by Nergaoul. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it does make it more reasonable it took divine intervention to save him.

 

Was he being affected by nergaol when he stole the throne from elhokar ? Or when married his dead brothers wife (taboo to them) were those acts honourable ?

24 minutes ago, Neroz said:

He was certainly given a pass, and I don't think we've seen the end of Dalinars punishment. I don't see him being truly redeemed, but rather acting till his last breath trying to.

What has he done to seek redemption ? Exactly, i must have missed it, 

26 minutes ago, Neroz said:

It leaves room for him to fail, true, but there are 2 more oaths that will be even harder for him to swear. I don't think he will be capable of all 5, personally. 

Striving for honor does not necessarily mean achieving it, but I do respect his efforts to achieve it. 

I don't think Dalinar found it hard to swear the 3rd ideal, so much as was hard for him to figure it out.

And again i don't see where in the book he strives for honour ? Above i mentioned twice he acting dishonourably, 

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19 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

I see it as he was made/unmade/forged, into a man that could handle what he did.

I agree with this statement. Dalinars journey is not possible without the outside interference of shards. He is being shaped into something he could never have been on his own.

22 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Was he being affected by nergaol when he stole the throne from elhokar ? Or when married his dead brothers wife (taboo to them) were those acts honourable ?

Dalinars leadership role in Alethkar was due in part to Elhokars ineptitude, and he spent the entirety of that relationship struggling with the fact that if he didn't act dishonorably and take some modicum of control, they would fail. To me, this is Dalinar choosing what is right over what his people perceive as honorable, and there is always honor in choosing what is right.

Similarly with his relationship with Navani, we see Dalinar struggling to overcome the Voren perception of what is honorable. To me, this is another instance of Dalinar growing to see that what is right is not what everyone he knows may perceive as honorable.

33 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

What has he done to seek redemption ?

54 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

I don't think Dalinar found it hard to swear the 3rd ideal, so much as was hard for him to figure it out.

This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

The OB flashbacks show just how terrible he was when he was subscribed to Voren and Alethi interpretations in place of his own. 

I find it difficult to discount that every time he has grown as a person, whether you count it or not without the memory of Evi, it has happened when he chose to ignore the Voren/Alethi traditional views of honor in order to follow what he truly believes to be right.

Theres also the parts where he reforms the Knights Radiant, stands toe to toe with a God and challenges him to defend what he loves and what he thinks is right, spends a grand portion of the books trying to unite the princes and later the entire world

Despite being born and raised to be the perfect Alethi, a Warlord, he has goodness somewhere deep within him. I understand that Dalinar is not redeemed, and potential completely irredeemable, but he is trying to be better. I do not believe he could've sworn his oaths without that growth and understanding.

Dalinar has done terrible things, but he has also done incredible things. King, Bondsmith, Father, Husband, Leader, Radiant, Unity.

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1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

You oversimplify Taravangian imo, he didn't commit crimes based on accidental crimes, he hatched a plan, a flawed plan, and executed it. 

 

You’re right, he didn’t do it to prevent simple crimes, he “foresaw” the future and decides that the best way to alter it was through the bloodiest oath with the highest chance of success.

Edit: I meant path when I said oath. Stupid iPhone autocorrect.

Edited by basement_boi
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9 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

You’re right, he didn’t do it to prevent simple crimes, he “foresaw” the future and decides that the best way to alter it was through the bloodiest oath with the highest chance of success.

Edit: I meant path when I said oath. Stupid iPhone autocorrect.

I am 100% simplifying Taravangian, I'm particularly referring the lovely hearthside dad chat they had where Taravangian all but admits he's accepted the blood on his hands and will, even if with a heavy heart, bloody them further.

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8 minutes ago, Neroz said:

I agree with this statement. Dalinars journey is not possible without the outside interference of shards. He is being shaped into something he could never have been on his own.

Exactly, which means he hasn't become who he is through personal growth, he didn't battle through his demons and come out the other side a better person, which is what growth would be.

10 minutes ago, Neroz said:

Dalinars leadership role in Alethkar was due in part to Elhokars ineptitude, and he spent the entirety of that relationship struggling with the fact that if he didn't act dishonorably and take some modicum of control, they would fail. To me, this is Dalinar choosing what is right over what his people perceive as honorable, and there is always honor in choosing what is right.

Similarly with his relationship with Navani, we see Dalinar struggling to overcome the Voren perception of what is honorable. To me, this is another instance of Dalinar growing to see that what is right is not what everyone he knows may perceive as honorable.

It wasn't right for him to usurp Elhokar, the right thing to of done would of been 1. Not allow him to be manipulated by people 2. Show him how to be a good king, so it was neither the honourable or right thing to do.

With regards Navani, i see what your saying but whatever way phrase it, what he did was far from honourable and don't think you could call it right either.

13 minutes ago, Neroz said:

The OB flashbacks show just how terrible he was when he was subscribed to Voren and Alethi interpretations in place of his own. 

I find it difficult to discount that every time he has grown as a person, whether you count it or not without the memory of Evi, it has happened when he chose to ignore the Voren/Alethi traditional views of honor in order to follow what he truly believes to be right.

Theres also the parts where he reforms the Knights Radiant, stands toe to toe with a God and challenges him to defend what he loves and what he thinks is right, spends a grand portion of the books trying to unite the princes and later the entire world

Despite being born and raised to be the perfect Alethi, a Warlord, he has goodness somewhere deep within him. I understand that Dalinar is not redeemed, and potential completely irredeemable, but he is trying to be better. I do not believe he could've sworn his oaths without that growth and understanding.

Dalinar has done terrible things, but he has also done incredible things. King, Bondsmith, Father, Husband, Leader, Radiant, Unity.

He didn't subscribe to atlethi and vorin interpretations as you put it, instead of his own, they were one and the same.

Reforms the knights radiant ? Can you give him credit for that ? I don't think so,

Yes spends a large portion of the series uniting someone to wipe out someone else, first its the  highprinces against the parshindi, then the world against the singers even after finding out that humans are the void bringers, hardly what i would call honourable, yes he half heartedly tries for peace, twice i think ?

King ? By stealing the throne ? Father ? A bad one, husband ? A terrible one, leader ? Maybe a warlord, leaders need to be more then that, radiant (only with cultivations help) unity ? Remains to be seen

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5 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

they were one and the same.

Vorenism is larger then Alethkar, it’s the prevalent religion in eastern roshar.

14 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

King ? By stealing the throne ? Father ? A bad one, husband ? A terrible one, leader ? Maybe a warlord, leaders need to be more then that, radiant (only with cultivations help) unity ? Remains to be seen

Yes yes yes! It all remains to be seen. The dichotomy of Dalinar is the best part of him. He’s a monster learning to be a man. I can’t really expand much more on my opinion without retreading ground so I’m gonna ask for a parley. I totally get not liking Dalinar, killing your wife is hard hurtle to climb in the honor department. 

Based on what I see of your opinion Dalinar, do you think he’s going to fail miserably? Kill the Storm father?

I’m really hoping he succeeds, I want to see him truly Radiant in the back 5.

and on the Navani topic, I don’t have a qualm with them at all. Don’t really want to go into more detail on that one.

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7 hours ago, Neroz said:

Vorenism is larger then Alethkar, it’s the prevalent religion in eastern roshar.

What i said was referring to the below.

8 hours ago, Neroz said:

The OB flashbacks show just how terrible he was when he was subscribed to Voren and Alethi interpretations in place of his own. 

Dalinar wasn't following Voren/Alethi interpretations instead of his own, they were one and the same.

7 hours ago, Neroz said:

Yes yes yes! It all remains to be seen. The dichotomy of Dalinar is the best part of him. He’s a monster learning to be a man. I can’t really expand much more on my opinion without retreading ground so I’m gonna ask for a parley. I totally get not liking Dalinar, killing your wife is hard hurtle to climb in the honor department. 

Its not that i don't like Dalinar, i do like him, its i find most peoples opinion of him to be highly eschewed. He is painted throughout this site as this extremely honourable person, when he is far from it, even since the "pruning" he does things which would be considered dishonourable. Yes he is striving to be a better person, but that doesn't negate what/who he was, Amaram is meant to act as a mirror to Dalinar (a watered down version at that) and people hate him, even though without doubt in some instances he would of no doubt truly acted "with honour" same way Dalinar does, but Amaran is vilified on this site and Dalinar is treated like a savior.

7 hours ago, Neroz said:

Based on what I see of your opinion Dalinar, do you think he’s going to fail miserably? Kill the Storm father?

I’m really hoping he succeeds, I want to see him truly Radiant in the back 5.

and on the Navani topic, I don’t have a qualm with them at all. Don’t really want to go into more detail on that one.

It depends what you mean by fail, do i think the humans will be pushed off Roshar ? No. Do i see Dalinar being the aggressor in a war across the cosmere ? Easily see it happening,  if thats the direction BS goes with back 5 books, which would constitute a failure on Dalinars part, unless the justifucation for doing so is something we havent seen yet.

As i doubt the back 5 will just be set on Roshar, as depending on the outcome of the contest of champions and the time skip between book 5 & 6, its hard to think will be in relatively the same place narratively as at the end of book 3/4.

And no i don't think he will kill the stormfather, but as long as he is bonded to him, he can't leave Roshar, so i see something happening there.

I don't have an issue with him and Navani, just pointed out how he hasn't been acting with honour since he was pruned or since got memories back like he is dispicted as on here, people seem to act like he is the paragon of honour, when he is far from it.

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4 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

even since the "pruning" he does things which would be considered dishonourable. Yes he is striving to be a better person, but that do

This just boggles me. I see it in a completely different light. The way I’ve read it is that before the pruning, Dalinar was a less then honorable blood thirsty warlord who was dishonorable in any lens other then being a good Alethi or a good Voren, which do have different and distinct expectations of their constituents then what we would traditionally apply.

(And in WoK WoR, Dalinar explicitly turmoils internally about not following Alethi/Voren social etiquette)


It’s after the pruning where  he swings into honor for me, and what you perceive as him being dishonorable is the opposite for me. I recognize his failures but his children love him, his wife loves him, and as far as we can tell, his people and the majority of Radiants seem to believe in him as well. 

If neither if us have swayed at this point I don’t see either of us doing so, we are gonna have to read and find out!

Heres to Dalinar hopefully not becoming a villain like Kelsier!

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7 hours ago, Neroz said:

This just boggles me. I see it in a completely different light. The way I’ve read it is that before the pruning, Dalinar was a less then honorable blood thirsty warlord who was dishonorable in any lens other then being a good Alethi or a good Voren, which do have different and distinct expectations of their constituents then what we would traditionally apply.

(And in WoK WoR, Dalinar explicitly turmoils internally about not following Alethi/Voren social etiquette)


It’s after the pruning where  he swings into honor for me, and what you perceive as him being dishonorable is the opposite for me. I recognize his failures but his children love him, his wife loves him, and as far as we can tell, his people and the majority of Radiants seem to believe in him as well. 

If neither if us have swayed at this point I don’t see either of us doing so, we are gonna have to read and find out!

Heres to Dalinar hopefully not becoming a villain like Kelsier!

I see where your coming from, i just don't agree, but the point of me posting my disagreements wasnt to sway you from your opinion, just to offer an alternative view. 

Don't think you will get your wish on that one

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59 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

I see where your coming from, i just don't agree, but the point of me posting my disagreements wasnt to sway you from your opinion, just to offer an alternative view. 

No worries, I get a little lost in the dramatics sometime. I tend to see things in black and white, very little grey area. (particularly when I'm chatting about something as cool as Dalinar)

13 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

Do i see Dalinar being the aggressor in a war across the cosmere ? Easily see it happening,  if thats the direction BS goes with back 5 books, which would constitute a failure on Dalinars part, unless the justifucation for doing so is something we havent seen yet.

Under the pretense this ends up being the canon, how do you think he would interact with Kelsier?

I can absolutely see a space faring, war mongering Dalinar going to toe to toe with Kelsier and his merry band of Ghostbloods.

At the same time, an older and more experienced Kelsier working with a space conquering Dalinar would just be an absolute treat.

Is there a particular direction you think their inevitable collision will head us down?

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11 minutes ago, Neroz said:

No worries, I get a little lost in the dramatics sometime. I tend to see things in black and white, very little grey area. (particularly when I'm chatting about something as cool as Dalinar)

Funny thing is most of the main characters in Sandersons works are what you would call grey characters, so it is possible to debate characters like Dalinar from multiple view points.

12 minutes ago, Neroz said:

Under the pretense this ends up being the canon, how do you think he would interact with Kelsier?

I can absolutely see a space faring, war mongering Dalinar going to toe to toe with Kelsier and his merry band of Ghostbloods.

At the same time, an older and more experienced Kelsier working with a space conquering Dalinar would just be an absolute treat.

Is there a particular direction you think their inevitable collision will head us down?

Since it would be very unlikey that they would be the only 2 major players in such a scenario i could see both possibilities happening at different times, even at the same time really, with a fair amount of subterfuge on Kelsiers part. 

Alot depends on how this "unity" situation plays out imo, which i have no idea how it will.

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