LewsTherinTelescope

WoB: Elantris was built pre-Splintering of Devotion and Dominion

21 posts in this topic

Someone on Reddit got this WoB a few hours ago....

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/u/Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

Sorry, what? How? Did the regional magics exist prior to the Shards being in the Cognitive???? Because AonDor is pretty specifically based on Arelon.

(Could mean a normal, non-magic city, but "when was Elantris built" feels like it's pretty clearly not saying "when were three buildings built that would become a city down the line", it's about the magical power enhancer that makes Elantris Elantris.)

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19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Someone on Reddit got this WoB a few hours ago....

Sorry, what? How? Did the regional magics exist prior to the Shards being in the Cognitive???? Because AonDor is pretty specifically based on Arelon.

(Could mean a normal, non-magic city, but "when was Elantris built" feels like it's pretty clearly not saying "when were three buildings built that would become a city down the line", it's about the magical power enhancer that makes Elantris Elantris.)

Sweeeeeeet.

 

It implies that at least some of the shapes/"languages" of the Dor magics pre-date the Dor itself, enough that they might have still worked before the Seon's were created.  We knew the timeline on Elantris was wonky and that it had been "Rediscovered" at some point.  

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Perhapse the AonDor was still somewhat the same, but after Odium, it became locked, meaning it no longer worked far from arelon

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Just now, Quantus said:

It implies that at least some of the shapes/"languages" of the Dor magics pre-date the Dor itself, enough that they might have still worked before the Seon's were created.  We knew the timeline on Elantris was wonky and that it had been "Rediscovered" at some point.  

Yeah. The Splintering of D&D was a loooong time ago, so that definitely still left room for it to have been abandoned up to several thousand years ago and still have been built post-Splintering, but I guess not. This one really blindsided me, because it completely changes the way Selish magics work — not that we thought we had a full understanding of that in the first place!

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Perhapse the AonDor was still somewhat the same, but after Odium, it became locked, meaning it no longer worked far from arelon

It's just shocking to me that I guess the regional magics still existed (whether locked to their own countries or not)? That or Arelon for whatever got a magic system and the rest of the planet just had to use theirs, but that one's even stranger to me.

(It also surprises me that even after the abandonment of Elantris, there was enough of a concept of an Arelon for Aons to remain as they are. This is an issue either way, but extending Elantris's creation back gives a lot more time that the concept of the nation has to remain around.)

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21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Perhapse the AonDor was still somewhat the same, but after Odium, it became locked, meaning it no longer worked far from arelon

I think Frustration is correct. The magic still functions the same, but now is can only be used in Arelon, whereas before it could be used anywhere.

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4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It implies that at least some of the shapes/"languages" of the Dor magics pre-date the Dor itself, enough that they might have still worked before the Seon's were created.  We knew the timeline on Elantris was wonky and that it had been "Rediscovered" at some point.  

I always just assumed they Aon's and other magical shapes and what not were naturally formed by the Shards settling/investing Sel. Not as a result of the Dor

in the arcanum khriss says "I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape.

i think thats what the people were discovering.

 

12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(It also surprises me that even after the abandonment of Elantris, there was enough of a concept of an Arelon for Aons to remain as they are. This is an issue either way, but extending Elantris's creation back gives a lot more time that the concept of the nation has to remain around.)

Im not sure the Aons are impacted by human perception like that.

 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Perhapse the AonDor was still somewhat the same, but after Odium, it became locked, meaning it no longer worked far from arelon

Thats been my only conclusion.

WoB is that Elantris was built before the splintering of D&D and also that Elantris was built using "the local magic" 

so Aon's/Elantrians had to have already existed "pre-splintering"

if the only thing that made the powers regional was the power moving to the Cognitive, then if the powers existed before(which they did) then it shouldnt have been regional. Right?

 

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5 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Im not sure the Aons are impacted by human perception like that.

Then what decides where the border of "Arelon" is, for the purposes of the shape of Aons, or MaiPon for stamps?

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

in the arcanum khriss says "I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape.

i think thats what the people were discovering.

I suppose so, but it's just so odd that the magic was doing this.

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29 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah. The Splintering of D&D was a loooong time ago, so that definitely still left room for it to have been abandoned up to several thousand years ago and still have been built post-Splintering, but I guess not. This one really blindsided me, because it completely changes the way Selish magics work — not that we thought we had a full understanding of that in the first place!

 

9 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I always just assumed they Aon's and other magical shapes and what not were naturally formed by the Shards settling/investing Sel. Not as a result of the Dor

in the arcanum khriss says "I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape.

i think thats what the people were discovering.

 

I think what is throwing me is that I was kind of operating under the assumption that the Aons (and other regional languages) where "born" from the shattering cataclysm.  Because the Seons and Sakze were.  But from a Chicken Vs Egg standpoint it actually does make more sense if the shapes/symbols were already significant to the Shards and their destruction just blasted off the "sparks" into those pre-defined shapes.  

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1 minute ago, Quantus said:

 

I think what is throwing me is that I was kind of operating under the assumption that the Aons (and other regional languages) where "born" from the shattering cataclysm.  Because the Seons and Sakze were.  But from a Chicken Vs Egg standpoint it actually does make more sense if the shapes/symbols were already significant to the Shards and their destruction just blasted off the "sparks" into those pre-defined shapes.  

The formation of the seons around Aons has definitely usually been confusing to me. I had wondered if perhaps they only coalesced later. This makes that part make sense, but makes the rest just make no sense to me, lol.

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33 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Then what decides where the border of "Arelon" is, for the purposes of the shape of Aons, or MaiPon for stamps?

Yeah. You got me there... lol


 it could be a result of the way D&D viewed things?


 if humans "discovered" the magic pre-splintering like Khriss said, then they discovered Aons, which means they couldnt have directly shaped them. I guess it was just unconscious human perception?

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Just now, Eternal Khol said:

 it could be a result of the way D&D viewed things.

I suppose so. Man, Sel is weird...

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I suppose so. Man, Sel is weird...

Sel is the weird reletive the rest of the Cosmere doesn't tell anyone else about.

Here's a question, did Dakhor predate the splintering? 

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28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Here's a question, did Dakhor predate the splintering? 

If AonDor did, I'd speculate that the rest did as well, because it'd be odd for Arelon to have a magic system based off it but not anyone else on the planet, but I've no real clue what to expect with the Selish magics after this, lol

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So the magic that is split into many parts and regional b/c the shards are in the cognitive realm

was doing this BEFORE THE SHARDS WERE SPILNTERED!!!!!!

I am so very very confused

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On 2/23/2021 at 10:48 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

So the magic that is split into many parts and regional b/c the shards are in the cognitive realm

was doing this BEFORE THE SHARDS WERE SPILNTERED!!!!!!

I am so very very confused

I mean you have the Shard of Dominion there, It makes sense to me. The Shard dictates how the magic is accessed. Having the literal embodiment of Dominion there means you would have to be apart of a specific domain to access a certain magic. The only thing that is up in the air is if you could use a regions magic everywhere on Sel without the power drop before the Splintering. If the answer is no then I am will be confused. 

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On 2/22/2021 at 5:50 PM, Eternal Khol said:

in the arcanum khriss says "I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape.

In addition to that there is the following just before that:

Quote

Sel is notable for being dishardic, one of few planets in the cosmere to attract two separate Shards of Adonalsium: Dominion and Devotion. These Shards were extremely influential in the development of human societies on the planet, and most of their traditions and religions can be traced back to these two. Uniquely, the very languages and alphabets used today across the planet were directly influenced by the two Shards.

So it has been implied that they deliberately were attempting to achieve some goal on Sel, possibly related to the Iree and the Elantrians, which is why Odium was "allowed" to attack them - perhaps they hoped to form a of investiture and human which could do things the shards couldn't, and so circumvent some restriction.

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8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

In addition to that there is the following just before that:

So it has been implied that they deliberately were attempting to achieve some goal on Sel, possibly related to the Iree and the Elantrians, which is why Odium was "allowed" to attack them - perhaps they hoped to form a of investiture and human which could do things the shards couldn't, and so circumvent some restriction.

Given how programmatical AonDor is, I'd say you're on the right path... Imagine if there was a human that could write an AonDor program that somehow changed a fundemental property of a Shard, fueled directly by D&D.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, eheheh, @RShara, I told you so!

 

 

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On 3/6/2021 at 7:42 AM, Honorless said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, eheheh, @RShara, I told you so!

 

 

"Existing" doesn't mean "existed in the exact same state it's in now" though. It could have been a collection of huts or a few dozen buildings in no particular pattern for all we know. I'm willing to wait till the books come out to discover for sure :D

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On 2/22/2021 at 7:29 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(It also surprises me that even after the abandonment of Elantris, there was enough of a concept of an Arelon for Aons to remain as they are. This is an issue either way, but extending Elantris's creation back gives a lot more time that the concept of the nation has to remain around.)

Arelon has some very well-defined natural borders (coast, river, mountains), so I buy that people would perceive Arelon as a single entity long before the "modern-day" nation emerged. I mean it's a slight stretch, but for comparison, the nation of Hungry has existed in one form or another for 1200 years despite having less well-defined borders then Arelon

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13 hours ago, Daggon Forescout said:

Arelon has some very well-defined natural borders (coast, river, mountains), so I buy that people would perceive Arelon as a single entity long before the "modern-day" nation emerged. I mean it's a slight stretch, but for comparison, the nation of Hungry has existed in one form or another for 1200 years despite having less well-defined borders then Arelon

Fair point. 

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