Kaladin vs Kalak

[Bejarden]

So I don’t know if anyone noticed this but:

Restares ( Kalak ) was the one that ordered Amaram to kill Kaladin’s squad

 “It took hours to decide but Restares is right-this is what must be done.” ( WoK 703)

so in book 5 Kaladin is going to hate Kalak. 

Or he’ll understand I guess we’ll see...

[Kingsdaughter613]

47 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

So I don’t know if anyone noticed this but:

Restares ( Kalak ) was the one that ordered Amaram to kill Kaladin’s squad

 “It took hours to decide but Restares is right-this is what must be done.” ( WoK 703)

so in book 5 Kaladin is going to hate Kalak. 

Or he’ll understand I guess we’ll see...

Or Kalak is a traitor. Which is my suspicion.

[Mage]

The real question is, will Kaladin have time to care in Book 5? He'll be doing Ishar stuff in Shinovar with everyone's favorite assassin. Who knows, maybe Kalak will be there with Ishar. Basically I'm just skeptical of how much communication can happen in that short a period of time. If Kaladin and Kalak survive to the back half I'm sure they will hate each other, unless Kaladin swears the fifth ideal and that interferes with his hate for those that killed his friends.

[Adonoliusm]

I think it's very likely that The fifth ideal will have something to do with forgiveness unless Brandon Sanderson decides to kill off Kaladin fighting Kalak and the fight will end with both their weapons stabbed into each other.

[GroundPetrel]

I am down with anything that involves Kalak getting the living daylights kicked out of him, but I'm pretty sure that Kaladin will actually bring himself to forgive Kalak and take him to therapy.  

[Shob the Voidbringer]

3 hours ago, Adonoliusm said:

I think it's very likely that The fifth ideal will have something to do with forgiveness unless Brandon Sanderson decides to kill off Kaladin fighting Kalak and the fight will end with both their weapons stabbed into each other.

kaladin looks at the spear stuck in him "fine" he says, "i won't die fighting some stupid immortal. but we were equal matched!"

[Kyn]

I was assuming what Amaram acted on was more of a standing order (claim all Shards at any cost, even if it means killing those not worthy of having them) from Kalak than a direct order. Did we get evidence that Kalak was sufficiently involved (or even present) to have been consulted about the case of Kaladin and his men in particular?

[Bejarden]

Yes 

 “It took hours to decide but Restares is right-this is what must be done.” ( WoK 703)

[Kyn]

I saw the quote further up in the thread, but it doesn’t answer my question. Just because Amaram spent hours deciding and went with what Restares told him doesn’t mean Kalak was there or actually involved in the decision-making. I mean, if someone said “my mom was right” after discussing with their spouse how to discipline their kids for something, we wouldn’t assume their mom was involved in the discussion or knew about the incident in question. I was wondering if I missed a reference telling us Kalak was personally involved in this particular decision?

[Bejarden]

7 hours ago, Kyn said:

I saw the quote further up in the thread, but it doesn’t answer my question. Just because Amaram spent hours deciding and went with what Restares told him doesn’t mean Kalak was there or actually involved in the decision-making. I mean, if someone said “my mom was right” after discussing with their spouse how to discipline their kids for something, we wouldn’t assume their mom was involved in the discussion or knew about the incident in question. I was wondering if I missed a reference telling us Kalak was personally involved in this particular decision?

It is Heavily implies that this was a very specific case where someone refused the shards

It doesn’t seem like this would happen if Kaladin took the shards Amamram wouldn’t  have killed his men as everybody in the camp would already know and that would defeat his purpose

It doesn’t seem like a standing order

Its was likely an opportunity that was taken by Restares that Amamram was hesitant to do

[Sara Stormblessed]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:53 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

So I don’t know if anyone noticed this but:

Restares ( Kalak ) was the one that ordered Amaram to kill Kaladin’s squad

 “It took hours to decide but Restares is right-this is what must be done.” ( WoK 703)

so in book 5 Kaladin is going to hate Kalak. 

Or he’ll understand I guess we’ll see...

Thank you so much for bringing this up! By some coincidence, I am listening to "Sas Nahn" from tWoK right now, and my brain is exploding with the crossover into Ghostbloods & Sons of Honor storylines. I would say that Amaram is even LESS guilty than Restares in this case. It sounds like Amaram would really rather not have to enslave Kaladin and kill his men but that he was convinced by Restares/Kalak. There are only two options:

1) Brandon is trying to lead us down a false trail. I doubt this though. The only person who could prove Restares wasn't personally involved, as @Kyn implies, is Amaram, and he's super dead. It seems needlessly detailed to include that name in this scene if not to implicate Kalak in the decision. If he is innocent, I think we won't find out until after Kaladin hands handed him his arse. 

2) Brandon is weaving a web that might pit Shallan and Kaladin against each other...? Shallan is basically friends with Kalak now and enemies with Thaidakar. Thaidakar and Kalak have been enemies for ages now. Kaladin and Kalak have got to have a confrontation about this eventually. If Kaladin becomes enemies with Kalak, maybe he will become friends with Thaidakar? Then we have Shallan/Kalak v. Kaladin/Thaidakar. Weirdly in the middle is Helaran, who might have been on the Thaidakar side of the puzzle per Amaran's suspicions in "Sas Nahn" of tWoK. 

Also, Kaladin and Kalak. What's the deal with their similar names??? Will we refound the Oathpack, in which Kaladin subs for Kalak? 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Also, Kaladin and Kalak. What's the deal with their similar names??? Will we refound the Oathpack, in which Kaladin subs for Kalak? 

Kaladin was named after him.

[Bejarden]

My hope is that Brandon does this.

Kaladin and Shallan/Kalak meet and Kaladin realizes who it is.

He then overcomes this (as it is a major plot point in WoR that he hates Amamram b/c of what he did and as you said Restares is more guilty) And has a major character growth.

Kinda red herring but very nice growth for Kaladin

[Sara Stormblessed]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin was named after him.

I need a devastated/crying face emoji for this. This is tragic. He is named after the man who is the epicenter of his betrayal and threw him into the darkest, most miserable days of his life??  *cry* *cry* *cry*

 

7 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

My hope is that Brandon does this.

Kaladin and Shallan/Kalak meet and Kaladin realizes who it is.

He then overcomes this (as it is a major plot point in WoR that he hates Amamram b/c of what he did and as you said Restares is more guilty) And has a major character growth.

Kinda red herring but very nice growth for Kaladin

No, I want blood. I am going to need some significant storytelling to get where you are. At the very least, I need a "Kaladin decked him" scene. 

Also, would you say Kalak is to Kaladin as Szeth is to Navani or as Szeth is to Dalinar? Somehow they got over Szeth's part in the death of Gavilar, Dalinar more so than Navani. Or can we not even compare them because 1) Szeth was just a pawn and 2) Gavilar sucked & Kaladin's men were just innocent bystanders. 

[Bejarden]

Szeth to dalinar    Seemingly innocent but not sure if he will strike

I completely do not understand why the Alethi trust szeth I thought they would at least string him up.

But no they didn’t so now we’re stuck with both

[Sara Stormblessed]

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Szeth to dalinar    Seemingly innocent but not sure if he will strike

I completely do not understand why the Alethi trust szeth I thought they would at least string him up.

But no they didn’t so now we’re stuck with both

I am mostly shocked about Jasnah's response to Szeth's presence in Oathbringer. She loved her father and was gutted by his assassination. I don't understand how she could just be like, "Oh hey! The storming assassin in white converted to our squad! Cool!"

Right now my mind is reeling. I am imagining Kaladin confronting Kalak in Shallan's presence. 

Kaladin to Kalak: RTT I killed a shardbearer, and you stormed up my life because of it!?! 
Shallan to Kaladin: RTT that shardbearer was my brother!?
Kaladin to Shallan: RTT your stupid brother barrelled into my life, killing my men, scarring me for life, and kicking off a whole storm of events that scarred me for life again and again?? 
*Radiant civil war ensues*
Enter Thaidakar: Sup? Whatseveryonefightingabout? 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sara Stormblessed

[Bejarden]

This is one messed up trio

[Wandering Investor]

On 2/21/2021 at 6:53 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

Restares is right-this is what must be done

I would point out that we don't know what "this" is. Yes, its possible "this" refers to killing Kaladin's squad and stealing the shardblade. Or to taking out anyone that refuses a shardblade on the risk they can hear the screams/might become a radiant.

But it's also possible that "this" is something entirely else that Amaran is (mis?)interpreting to fit his desire for a shardblade. It could be a more general command to collect shardblades, and is not specifically pointed at this event or meant to order this manner of execution. It's also possible that someone else gave this command in the name of Restares, and Kelak wasn't actually involved. We don't see any evidence of Kelak/Restares communicating with Amaran in this scene, or if he'd be able to in such a short timeframe. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

28 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I am mostly shocked about Jasnah's response to Szeth's presence in Oathbringer. She loved her father and was gutted by his assassination. I don't understand how she could just be like, "Oh hey! The storming assassin in white converted to our squad! Cool!"

Right now my mind is reeling. I am imagining Kaladin confronting Kalak in Shallan's presence. 

Kaladin to Kalak: RTT I killed a shardbearer, and you stormed up my life because of it!?! 
Shallan to Kaladin: RTT that shardbearer was my brother!?
Kaladin to Shallan: RTT your stupid brother barrelled into my life, killing my men, scarring me for life, and kicking off a whole storm of events that scarred me for life?? 
*Radiant civil war ensues*
Enter Thaidakar: Sup? Whatseveryonefightingabout? 

Personally I think Thaidakar’s reaction is more along the lines of: Excellent! Great job Ghostbloods! Time for Operation TFE. (Stages Darkeyes Revolution and proceeds to completely overturn Rosharan society, somehow becoming deified along the way... again.) 

[Sara Stormblessed]

16 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

This is one messed up trio

If you thought they were a messed-up before, wait till you read "Radiant Civil War", in which it's a contest between Kaladin and Shallan to see who can kill more of the Davar household. Right now, Shallan is leading 2 to 1. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

More seriously, I think Kalak is a traitor who is working with Odium. A lot of what the SoH have done makes quite a bit of sense from that perspective.

[Sara Stormblessed]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

More seriously, I think Kalak is a traitor who is working with Odium. A lot of what the SoH have done makes quite a bit of sense from that perspective.

You just want everyone in the Cosmere to join Team Kelsier and storms take anyone who stands in his way.  Honestly, all the Herald's are such a hot mess right now, I would gladly sub Thadiakar for them all. Give him all the powers! Tapestries in every room! Mwhahahahah. 

...I suspect Brandon might be Team Kelsier-takes-over-the-Cosmere. I have a feeling that Kelsier is his favorite child. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

You just want everyone in the Cosmere to join Team Kelsier and storms take anyone who stands in his way.  Honestly, all the Herald's are such a hot mess right now, I would gladly sub Thadiakar for them all. Give him all the powers! Tapestries in every room! Mwhahahahah. 

...I suspect Brandon might be Team Kelsier-takes-over-the-Cosmere. I have a feeling that Kelsier is his favorite child. 

Pretty sure Hoid is. But Kell is definitely up there. He’s a fun character because he writes himself, which is always nice for an author.

But I actually do think Kalak is a traitor. I’ve thought there was a traitor herald for a while and it does fit. He’s terrified of being tortured again; how better to avoid it than siding with the torturer? His people tried to return the Desolations. He claims he can’t make decisions, but manages to lead and manipulate an entire team? He knows far too much about the dagger, including information he shouldn’t have, but doesn’t know who used it? Oh, and he’s trying to get Shallan to release a very dangerous Unmade with no guarantees.

He’s also the first character we’re introduced to. And he’s convinced even then that Odium will get free. The SoH have been our heroes enemies from the beginning and their actions have always involved betrayal; it makes a lot of sense to me that their boss will follow the same trend. They started the plot in many ways; I think they’re going to end it.

[LuckyJim]

29 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Pretty sure Hoid is. But Kell is definitely up there. He’s a fun character because he writes himself, which is always nice for an author.

But I actually do think Kalak is a traitor. I’ve thought there was a traitor herald for a while and it does fit. He’s terrified of being tortured again; how better to avoid it than siding with the torturer? His people tried to return the Desolations. He claims he can’t make decisions, but manages to lead and manipulate an entire team? He knows far too much about the dagger, including information he shouldn’t have, but doesn’t know who used it? Oh, and he’s trying to get Shallan to release a very dangerous Unmade with no guarantees.

He’s also the first character we’re introduced to. And he’s convinced even then that Odium will get free. The SoH have been our heroes enemies from the beginning and their actions have always involved betrayal; it makes a lot of sense to me that their boss will follow the same trend. They started the plot in many ways; I think they’re going to end it.

I think releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram will ultimately do a lot of good for the people of Roshar, since we know there were no deadeye's before she was sealed away, and the parshmen (who have a similar condition to deadeyes) are a direct result of her being sealed away.

That being said I think you have a point on Kalak, there's just too much there for it to all be a coincidence. I think he did start working for Odium at one point, but now with the return of the Knights Radiant he's starting to doubt his decisions and may be starting to want to return to Honor and do things to fix the damage that's been done since he abandoned his duties as herald.

There's probably a Wheel of Time comparison that can be made here.

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I think releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram will ultimately do a lot of good for the people of Roshar, since we know there were no deadeye's before she was sealed away, and the parshmen (who have a similar condition to deadeyes) are a direct result of her being sealed away.

That being said I think you have a point on Kalak, there's just too much there for it to all be a coincidence. I think he did start working for Odium at one point, but now with the return of the Knights Radiant he's starting to doubt his decisions and may be starting to want to return to Honor and do things to fix the damage that's been done since he abandoned his duties as herald.

There's probably a Wheel of Time comparison that can be made here.

I think trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram was what caused Odium to finally become fully Invested in Roshar. Most Spren are only of two tones and Roshar now has three. I think this lack of resonance is what’s creating Deadeyes. And I think Sja-Amat has been curing Deadeyes by adding something of Odium to them, so that they resonate fully with Roshar again.

I also think BAM is Odium’s bondsmith spren. I think she’s going to corrupt the Deadeyes when released, but instead of leaving them free -like Sja-Anat does - she’s going to control them and use them against the Radiants.