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The 5th Radiant Ideal


Maddie The Survivor

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5 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

And very few Radiants reached the 5th Ideal

And I think you underestimate the importance of a flying group of shields in a military organization.

So kind of like an organization of people with the intent of protecting the defenseless 

Spoiler

Does that similar to another oath...:ph34r:

 

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3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

And very few Radiants reached the 5th Ideal

And I think you underestimate the importance of a flying group of shields in a military organization.

Actually given the Recreance vision we can say that 5th isn't as rare as we have been led to belive

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I don't, I'm making the assumption that we don't have two hundred plated Radiants and none of them are fifth

I would say that if it was extremely uncommon to be 5th, as that is the general assumption, this is exactly what would have happened.

5th ideals probably would have taken more leadership positions anyway and wouldn’t be on the battlefield anyway

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This is really great analysis. I think the Oaths are definitely supposed to lead the Radiant down a path of growth (sort of like a 12 step program of the like). For the Skybreakers, it’s (2) swear to follow the law in general (3) pick a specific law/code/person to follow (4) test that code in a real-life case (5) synthesize your own code from what you’ve learned.  @Leuthie had a really awesome breakdown for the Windrunners! (2) swear to protect (3) protect even the people you didn’t include at first (4) accept you’ll fail to protect sometimes. (5) ????. 

I think the pattern is:

(2) is a general oath to the core focus the order (based on the WoB from the quiz and the canon oaths). So I will: protect, follow the law, remember, seek freedom, etc. Just a basic promise to a specific order.

(3) is a bit more complicated. My read is that it’s generally a direct extension of the first, and confronts a sort of ‘loophole’. You can’t pick and choose who’s worthy of protecting. You can’t pick and choose what laws you want to follow. For Bondsmiths, I can see it as asking others to be better also means working to better yourself. Edgedancers are harder to fit, but I’d argue that listening requires more than just remembering. 

(4) seems to be a big leap. Which makes sense since it’s where you get Shardplate. My read is that this oath is not so much a pressure valve as much as a test. To pass a Skybreaker needs to actually apply their code to an issue they care deeply about and a Windrunner needs to accept they can’t protect anyone. It’s forcing the knight to think critically about the promises they made and how they’re ideals (in a very literal sense of the word) and what to do when they fail to reach them.

(5), at least for Skybreakers, is about synthesizing everything they’ve learned. In general, my guess is that the Fifth Windrunner ideal is about extending protection from a direct, individual idea into a societal one and bringing in more of the leadership aspect. 

As for my specific (5) guess… something like “I will help people protect themselves”.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm a bit torn because applying the Skybreaker pattern would imply that the 5th ideal involves you becoming the apotheosis of the order's ideals. The obvious oath is something like being willing to die to protect, but that seems too easy for a Windrunner to do. 

The oaths are getting more and more difficult for Kaladin to accept and say, and dramatically I think going the opposite direction and having the ideal as "I will kill to protect the greater number", whilst smelling of Utilitarianism, will be maximally hard for Kaladin to say.  Killing has been getting harder and harder for him to do, and actually solves the Kholinar dilemma in a way that "I can't save everyone" does not. 

I think the orders could have really different styles of oaths, and the 4th and 5th oaths are dealing with practical problems and dilemmas actually applying the 2nd and 3rd in the shades of greys you get in real life, and helps a Radiant be a bit more rounded.  Maybe 5th ideal Windrunners were less rare than they are in some other orders. 

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  • 1 month later...

Maybe the final Windrunner oath involves protecting people through leadership rather than fighting (and part of why Kaladin is more dangerous to odium as a doctor)

"I will help people to protect each other"

or even something bondsmith-ish

"I will bring people together to help them protect each other"

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35 minutes ago, Waffles said:

Maybe the final Windrunner oath involves protecting people through leadership rather than fighting (and part of why Kaladin is more dangerous to odium as a doctor)

"I will help people to protect each other"

or even something bondsmith-ish

"I will bring people together to help them protect each other"

Good thoughts. Going of that. "I will lead people to protect." Or perhaps flip it, "I will protect by leading" I still am intrigued by what power up (aside from efficiency) does the fifth ideal give. I really liked the idea of it doing something similar to the fifth heightening with breath (to me this makes sense). Breath is just investiture, and upon having enough of it in their system they essentially stop aging. Well, Kaladin has shown that he had a stormlight addiction, but perhaps the side effects of having stormlight  in your system decrease as you swear more ideas. You certainly become a better vessel to hold stormlight, but perhaps that is because your body is changing and becoming a more worthy vessel. Which means perhaps you won't have the same sort of dangerous side effects of having or using too much stormlight. We know stormlight heals, even old wounds. But I imagine it could also slow or stop aging if a Radiant of the fifth idea saw aging the same way they did a cut or something. Perception would be the only thing that stopped stormlight from reversing age once you become a perfect vessel for stormlight. There isn't really a reason why stormlight should act differently than breath if you had it in a body that didn't leak it. 5th lvl heightening for breath should be able to do the same thing for a perfect vessel that doesn't leak stormlight if you have equivalent investiture. What do you all think?

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Each ideal builds on the one before it

  1. Tripartite statement of fundamental values
  2. Pursuit of a virtue (truth, logic, protection, unity)
  3. Eliminating the biases and impulses which hinder the pursuit of that virtue ("even those I hate", "even from myself", swearing to follow someone else)
  4. Accepting the insurmountable limitations to pursuing that virtue ("I can't save everyone", having to act on your own to apply law and experiencing the subjectivity of judgment)

I think the fifth ideal will build on the fourth in a kind of "turning back". The fifth ideal will involve allowing oneself to trust their own instincts in a kind of anti-third ideal. For Szeth this will mean simultaneously taking up the burden of being a judge and setting down the burden of his self-doubt. For Kaladin this might mean allowing himself to be arbiter of who to save and who to sacrifice. It could also be to teach others to protect themselves, but even then there's that bit of allowing oneself to define how protection should look and who should be given protection first.

...but I might be biased because this progression sounds exactly like Nietzsche's stages of overcoming morality.

Screenshot 2021-05-14 180629.png

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On 02/04/2021 at 7:12 PM, Dudley said:

The oaths are getting more and more difficult for Kaladin to accept and say, and dramatically I think going the opposite direction and having the ideal as "I will kill to protect the greater number", whilst smelling of Utilitarianism, will be maximally hard for Kaladin to say.  Killing has been getting harder and harder for him to do, and actually solves the Kholinar dilemma in a way that "I can't save everyone" does not. 

I agree that the pattern is for Kaladin to have increasing trouble with the Oaths, but I disagree that this leads to "kill to protect" or an analogue thereof. I mean... he's been doing that the whole time.

My theory is that the Windrunner Fifth Ideal will be protecting oneself. This seems to me to extend from the 4th Ideal.

The man is self-sacrificing to a fault. In RoW we had a sniff of him realising that he needs to take care of himself if he's to be of any use to anyone, but in the end he threw down as we knew he would. Glorious victory! And it had to happen. But at what cost to himself?

 

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On 5/14/2021 at 7:13 PM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I agree that the pattern is for Kaladin to have increasing trouble with the Oaths, but I disagree that this leads to "kill to protect" or an analogue thereof. I mean... he's been doing that the whole time.

My theory is that the Windrunner Fifth Ideal will be protecting oneself. This seems to me to extend from the 4th Ideal.

The man is self-sacrificing to a fault. In RoW we had a sniff of him realising that he needs to take care of himself if he's to be of any use to anyone, but in the end he threw down as we knew he would. Glorious victory! And it had to happen. But at what cost to himself?

 

I just feel that it’s wrong not to give it your all

If you can save even one life it’s worth even great personal harm to yourself, I think the 5th ideal will go in a completely separate direction of “I will kill even those I love, to protect those that deserve it”

It is slightly foreshadowed in OB when Kaladin can’t bring himself to kill the Singers that he befriended to protect the Wall Gaurd

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I think that the fifth ideal is not going to be an oath so much as a realization. The realization that living your oaths have changed you as a person to the point where you embody the spirit of those oaths. I think that this realization means that you are not longer beholden to the letter of the oaths you swore before. Essentially that your spren trusts you fully, and that you will be able to act against some of the virtues of your order without breaking your bond.

I think a big part of this ideal depends on your spren as much as you. I think that to be able to achieve it your spren has to have become "human" enough that they are able to perceive that the ideals their order strives for do not always apply to the messy situations that arise in life. They need to go through situations like Ivory's realization that Jasnah should not kill Renarin even when he could think of no logical reason to spare him. They need accept that sometimes rigid principles need to give way, and they need to be at a point where they trust their bondmate to know when that is.

I think that reaching this ideal is rare because it is in a sense the destination, and therefore explicitly not the point of being a radiant. Radiants who reach this point essentially are realizing that they have learned all they needed to from their oaths and order. They will continue to live their order's oaths and virtues. But this will be a function of who they have become, rather than the oaths they have sworn.

So if I had to put a specific phrase to Kaladin's 5th ideal it would probably be "I am a protector". The important point being that it is a statement of identity, not an occupation. Not my oaths make me a protector, or even that my actions make me a proctector. But fundamentally the person who I am is one who protects. I could see this not being sworn by Kaladin until much later in the series, after he has transition from soldier to mental heath pioneer, and he fully comes to the realization that he is not defined by his mistakes, or by his depression, but rather by his life's work of protecting others. (Assuming he survives that long)

Edited by Kolten
added prediction for windrunner's specific 5th oath
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I think it will combine the Leadership and Protection aspects. I don't know the right words, but something along the lines of having to give an order/ make decisions that mean one of his Knights have to sacrifice themselves in order to protect. This would fit with some of Lirin's triage lessons, and Kal has trouble making a call already on who to protect/who lives (see Kholinar palace)

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Kolten, I just realized that you already voiced most of the core ideas in "my" theory below; I really should have read all the responses before typing this all out. I do think that you might appreciate my thoughts on intent, though. With that out of the way... 

Hi all, I'm finally coming out of lurkerhood to make a post here, though I'm not sure people are still tracking this topic. In any case, here's my theory about the 5th Ideal and why it's so difficult to achieve:

In line with what we know about Skybreakers, I think the 5th Ideal involves the radiant fully becoming a vessel that matches their Spren partner's divine intent, and thus their Spren fully synchronizes with their radiant. This is why it enhances their radiant powers -- it makes them something akin to a Shard and its ideal holder, though the power is limited enough that they do not experience ascension.

Here's how I think it will go for Shallan: I think she will discover (or rediscover, I suppose) that Cryptics are actually "Truthspren," and in order to achieve the 5th Ideal she will have to be able to honestly say something to the effect of "I am true to myself and to those I love." I don't know if anyone else has already made the "Truthspren" point, but here's what I mean: We know that Cryptics are bad at lying, and that they are obsessed with both the truth and with lies. I believe that the reason they are stimulated by lies is because of how lies interact with the truth. Obfuscating the truth is alluring to them in the same way that clothing can be enticing to humans -- a bad lie is like a person wearing a burlap sack (which could be mildly alluring in an outlandish way), whereas a carefully-crafted lie is like a gorgeous gown (which greatly heightens the appeal of the wearer). As a final point, a cryptic's general appearance is a reference to the idea that truth is complex, multifaceted, and is difficult to discern in its entirety because of the near-infinite contributing factors involved. It also doesn't help that on Roshar (and elsewhere in the cosmere), peoples' perceptions shape the cognitive realm which can in turn have a large effect on the spiritual and physical -- meaning that perceptions literally alter the truth, albeit over time.

Continuing the theory, here are my thoughts on Windrunners: I think that the divine intent associated with Honorspren is not Honor, because they are not actually 100% Honor. They claim the name "Honorspren" because they are the closest of the humanoid spren to Honor's intent (something like 90% Honor, and 10% Cultivation), and because they see it as a badge of honor -- pun intended. I think this is hinted at in Syl's "two brains" monologue, and I think their true divine intent may be something like guardianship (protecting others because it is the honorable thing to do, and also because it allows them to grow). This would mean that for Kaladin to reach the 5th ideal, he would have to say "I am a guardian" and actually believe it. This would be no mean feat, as it would require him to truly overcome his belief that he is a failure. His 4th Ideal was a step in the right direction, as it allowed him to accept he cannot save everyone, but he still has a way to go before he would be willing to view himself in a completely different light.

So here are my guesses for the other radiant spren and their divine intents (based in part on the descriptions of each order):

Highspren - Divine Intent: Law, Example Oath: "I am the law" -- this one is given

Lightspren - Divine Intent: Exploration, Example Oath: "I am that which discovers the way forward" -- this one makes sense to me

Inkspren - Divine Intent: Revision, Example Oath: "I am eternal refinement" -- kinda makes sense given Jasnah's MO

Cultivationspren - Divine Intent: Memory, Example Oath: "I am an essential part of history" -- pretty weak guess, but it's all I've got

Ashspren - Divine Intent: Purification, Example Oath: "I am that which purifies" 

Peakspren - Divine Intent: Resolve, Example Oath: "I have found my purpose"

Mistspren - Divine Intent: Guidance, Example Oath: "I am that which helps others follow"

I also believe that Spren like Renarin's will have a different Divine Intent based on it's connection to Odium, and thus a different 5th Ideal.

THERE YOU GO. If you managed to wade through my massive wall of text, I commend you. Any comments, contributions, or criticism would be greatly appreciated!

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Kaladin: sometimes i must be protected (from himself included)

Or something including an external source of protection. Does anyone have theories or insight on Renarin's oaths? I would think they are different than a usual oath

Edited by FictionSpren
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On 6/6/2021 at 3:31 AM, FictionSpren said:

Kaladin: sometimes i must be protected (from himself included)

Or something including an external source of protection. Does anyone have theories or insight on Renarin's oaths? I would think they are different than a usual oath

Yes, I can see that. According to Moash and perhaps even himself, the only hand that can take his life is his own. In some way this is how the Shards work. As long as they don't break their oaths they are not open to attack. But the Shard sometimes overcomes the vessel and they do things that leave themselves able to be destroyed. Going back to Kaladin though, Some oath that helps keep him from intentional self-harm. "I am worth protection." That seems to be in part what Kaladin has been learning to do in RoW. Not only that, but he always seems to be working on more than one oath at a time. Like he is capable of swearing an ideal, but doesn't until he is ready, but that doesn't stop him from working on the next step. It will be interesting what other things manifest once Kal swears the fifth ideal. I hope he is the first, even though Jasnah has a head start, reaching the fourth ideal first (although knowing her she has had the fifth ideal since we met her lol). Also Jezrian's blade, (clearly a blind man can't use it) (he isn't a Jedi)). But I imagine if Moash doesn't get a redemption arc, then surely the blade gets made use of by team honor. Dalinar claiming the oath for Oathbringer makes sense to me, but leaving an honor blade unused makes no sense to me. Absorbed by Syl, making her a super spren (is that possible)?

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I think the 5th Radiant ideals have to do with WHY. It’s an ultimate understanding of what the order is all about.

For example, Nale talks about “becoming” the Law, but I think what this really means is understanding Law to the point where you can interpret it with perfect honesty and judgement. A second or third order Skybreaker is like a police officer, who makes an oath to enforce/uphold/defend the laws of the land. A 5th order Skybreaker is a Supreme Court Justice (apologies for the USA reference for those outside the USA). 

Recall the scene in Oathbringer where Kaladin is confronted by two opposing parties and he wants to protect both sides. Obviously this situation was beyond what 3rd ideal Kaladin could handle. I suspect even 4th ideal Kaladin, at the end of RoW, would still have trouble in that scene. That scene would have required a 5th ideal Windrunner, who would understand protection to the level of why. Right now Kaladin doesn’t know why. It’s why he’s no good at large-scale battle/war (remember the side-carry scene in WoK?) or politics.

I think all of the orders (I could possibly argue even the Lightweavers follow this pattern) follow this pattern:

1. Basic understanding of what Radiants are all about.

2. Basic commitment to what the order is about.

3. Commitment to push through even when there is resistance.

4. Understanding of the limitations of the order.

5. Understanding the Why of the order.

All of the orders we have seen so far fit this pattern (I could make a case for it, at least). Personally, I would like to see what a 5th Bondsmith ideal would look like. They would have to understand Connection and the Spiritual Realm on a very deep level. WHY are people/beings connected to each other the way that they are? 
 

Editing to add: remember Nale is not exactly his best self right now, so what he told Szeth is probably a tainted version of what the Skybreakers are really about.

Kaladin probably still can’t answer Vasher’s question, but when he can in full confidence, I think he will say the Fifth Ideal. And I think Kaladin IS the character Brandon intends to exemplify the Radiant journey. The other main characters have weird exceptions/situations that make them not the best examples (which also makes the story that much more interesting).

Edited by Xaladin
Editing to add. No double post.
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11 hours ago, Xaladin said:

I think the 5th Radiant ideals have to do with WHY. It’s an ultimate understanding of what the order is all about.

For example, Nale talks about “becoming” the Law, but I think what this really means is understanding Law to the point where you can interpret it with perfect honesty and judgement. A second or third order Skybreaker is like a police officer, who makes an oath to enforce/uphold/defend the laws of the land. A 5th order Skybreaker is a Supreme Court Justice (apologies for the USA reference for those outside the USA). 

Recall the scene in Oathbringer where Kaladin is confronted by two opposing parties and he wants to protect both sides. Obviously this situation was beyond what 3rd ideal Kaladin could handle. I suspect even 4th ideal Kaladin, at the end of RoW, would still have trouble in that scene. That scene would have required a 5th ideal Windrunner, who would understand protection to the level of why. Right now Kaladin doesn’t know why. It’s why he’s no good at large-scale battle/war (remember the side-carry scene in WoK?) or politics.

I think all of the orders (I could possibly argue even the Lightweavers follow this pattern) follow this pattern:

1. Basic understanding of what Radiants are all about.

2. Basic commitment to what the order is about.

3. Commitment to push through even when there is resistance.

4. Understanding of the limitations of the order.

5. Understanding the Why of the order.

All of the orders we have seen so far fit this pattern (I could make a case for it, at least). Personally, I would like to see what a 5th Bondsmith ideal would look like. They would have to understand Connection and the Spiritual Realm on a very deep level. WHY are people/beings connected to each other the way that they are? 
 

Editing to add: remember Nale is not exactly his best self right now, so what he told Szeth is probably a tainted version of what the Skybreakers are really about.

Kaladin probably still can’t answer Vasher’s question, but when he can in full confidence, I think he will say the Fifth Ideal. And I think Kaladin IS the character Brandon intends to exemplify the Radiant journey. The other main characters have weird exceptions/situations that make them not the best examples (which also makes the story that much more interesting).

I will do anything to save my world, even to die for it.

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14 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

I will do anything to save my world, even to die for it.

How about:

I will do anything to save my world, even to LIVE for it. 

To me that fits better thematically with Kaladin's arc, with his depression and everything. To choose to live every single day.

Though it also makes me think of Kaladin potentially taking Jezrien's place in Oathpact 2.0, as that would mean him choosing to willingly live through heck without giving up...which is not necessarily a theory that I love.

Edited by Dreamwa1ker
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I think that one thing that we will see that the 5th Oath is not the end, just the highest power level 

It will be on the same path as the rest not finishing his Arc

Because the journeys never over

This is where Nale went wrong I believe, he convinced Honor to accept an Oath that ended his journey making his life empty and meaningless 

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13 hours ago, Xaladin said:

remember Nale is not exactly his best self right now, so what he told Szeth is probably a tainted version of what the Skybreakers are really about.

I was just thinking about how much theorising about the Fifth Ideal is based on what we know about the Skybreakers, so I went looking for the passage where we learn about it.

Oathbringer, chapter 90

Quote

“The Ideal of Law,” Ki said. “It is difficult. You must become law, become truth. As I said, it has been centuries since that was achieved.”

“Nin told me we were to follow the law—something external, as men are changeable and unreliable. How can we become the law?”

“Law must come from somewhere,” another of the Skybreaker masters said. “This is not an oath you will swear, so don’t fixate upon it. The first three will do for most Skybreakers. I was of the Third Ideal for two decades before achieving the Fourth.”

Context: Szeth and a bunch of other Skybreaker hopefuls are asking questions of some of Nale’s Skybreakers who are in charge of training new recruits. 

Notably, this description of the Fifth Ideal comes from people who have not sworn it. According to them, it is centuries since the last time someone swore the Fifth Ideal - which, unless I’m missing something, means that Nale is the only living person who has sworn the Fifth Ideal (for Skybreakers). He’s the only one who has done it in generations. Presumably he’s their only source for this information. And he’s insane. 

Couple that with how weird it sounds as a Radiant Ideal (the person who says ‘I am the law’ is usually not the good guy) and it looks like there’s something fishy going on.

I think that what Szeth learns about the Fifth Ideal in OB is not actually true. Or if it is, it’s misleading. 

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