Maddie The Succulent

The 5th Radiant Ideal

51 posts in this topic

So, what do you think the 5th ideal will be? In my opinion I think it will have something to do with the radiant bond with their spren. Maybe the ideals will be the same? Well, I want your guys opinion.

Edited by HaileyTheMistborn
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10 minutes ago, HaileyTheMistborn said:

So, what do you think the 5th ideal will be? In my opinion I think it will have something to do with the radiant bond with their spren. Maybe the ideals will be the same? Well, I want your guys opinion.

Well, we know one Fifth Radient Ideal, that being the Skybreakers and Becoming the Law. So they are likely the combination of what all their oaths have been leading to, rather than having to do with their spren or being the same.

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I will chose who is worthy of protections

( gets rid of the 3rd ideal crutch)

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"I will protect this world from devastation"

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Is it stupid that I just want to base them all off the Skybreaker one?

"I am the Wind"
"I am the Stone"

And etc.

Probably not, but if only it was that simple.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Waffles said:

"I will protect this world from devastation"

"And Unite all people within our nation" -- Bondsmith

Edited by Infinitysliver
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On 2/21/2021 at 7:25 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

I will chose who is worthy of protections

This sounds a lot like when Moash and Graves tried to kill Elhokar, deeming him unworthy of protection and life. I’m not sure that would be an ideal.

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44 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

"And Unite all people within our nation"

"To denounce the evils of truth and love"

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23 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The Ideal of Law is an Oath of consistency. It doesn't invalidate previous Oaths. Rather, in concert with previous Oaths, it solidifies the Skybreaker as an embodiment of a constant set of Ideals (actually, the consistency of these Laws are in dispute as it's possible that the 5th Ideal Skybreaker can change them over time. I believe this caveat is along the lines of the Constitution being a "living document" that can be changed by legal precedent and Amendment to meet current needs). Previous to this Oath, the Skybreaker was "practicing" with certain modes of Law. This Ideal makes permanent a specific set of Laws that the Skybreaker will follow and enforce forever (see caveat above). To do anything that isn't consistent with the chosen set of Laws is to break the 5th Oath. Nale might be crazy, but he is forced by Oath to follow that craziness consistently. His 5th Oath gave him no choice but to join Odium's side when he interpreted that Odium's side is the righteous side, for instance.

Let's put this "solidification" Ideal onto a Windrunner:

  1. Life before death, etc.
  2. I will protect something ("...those who cannot protect themselves" were the words spoken by both Kaladin and Lopen, but Lopen was copying what Kaladin said the Oath was. It's possible others may choose a different set of people to protect)
  3. I will protect even those I was excluding when I spoke the second Oath. ("I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." by Kaladin (Kaladin excluded those he hated from the 2nd Oath), "I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself." by Teft (Teft excluded himself from protection in the 2nd Oath), "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself." by Lopen (Lopen excluded protecting those he hurt with his words).
  4. I will accept my failures (Kaladin was the only one we've seen, and he needed to accept those who he couldn't protect. Others may have some other failure or hangup caused by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths that will lead to a different target for this Ideal. Teft, for instance, may have needed to forgive himself for failing himself, Lopen may need to allow himself to joke around again, etc.)

The 2nd Oath defines purpose. The 3rd extends that purpose beyond what was assumed when the 2nd was spoken. The 4th is a pressure relief valve, solving an inevitable issue that arises with the 2nd and 3rd Ideals.

The journey is obviously one meant to create a constant, functional protector. What is missing to "solidify" that journey? Something simple but all encompassing. Something that anchors the previous 4 Ideals without invalidating them. 

I don't have a good answer, but there's some setup for someone else.

This is an amazing analysis of the Windrunner oaths!!!! Well done, this will help people understand them for a long time to come, and I personally am going to reference this post quite often when answering questions.

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I think it has to do with:

If two people are in front of u who do you save 

or

killing those you love to protect 

( I got that one from the “stop killing each other” scene in OB where he can’t save the ones he loves because he loves the other side too)

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5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

[snip]

I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things.

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41 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things.

Maybe like....."Sometimes people can only save themselves"

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Posted (edited)

 

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things.

"I will empower others to protect themselves" seems like a very valid 5th Ideal that doesn't invalidate the previous ones. It also seems a little too easy and natural, making the 5th Ideal something that nearly every 4th Ideal Windrunner would reach.

Edited by Leuthie
Added a con to my pro
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Posted (edited)

I will Embrace the Essence of Honor Live Love and Fight to Protect Life. Not scripture but I see the 5th going along these lines.   I see Dalinar's Discussion with Taravangion after the betrayal as foreshadowing ideals  

Edited by rbnguevara
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Posted (edited)

I was also thinking along the lines of teaching others to protect themselves. We've seen before that the radiants were very clearly not just soldiers. They also helped the common people build, heal, and fight.

Another idea I had was something about protecting yourself, because you can't protect others if you're dead or otherwise incapacitated. (Yay that one first aid class I took a long time ago!) This ideal doesn't seem to be the last ideal, though, because of Teft's ideal.

Alternatively, it could be something about sacrifice. Not protecting people for the greater good. It doesn't seem quite like it fits to me, but it's an idea. 

Edited by IAmTheStick
A dumb missing "s"
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46 minutes ago, IAmTheStick said:

I was also thinking along the lines of teaching others to protect themselves. We've seen before that the radiants were very clearly not just soldiers. They also helped the common people build, heal, and fight.

I had an idea somewhere along there lines. 
I think it might be “I will prevent protection from being needed” or “I will mediate to prevent the danger that requires protection”

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The "living document" argument is weak, because laws themselves can be illegal (look at the US and "gun control" legislation).

 

Every radiant has unique oaths beyond the first. Nal's becoming of the law, could be Szeth's becoming of Dalinar's will w/o Dalinar's input.

 

A lot of the suggestions posted have been things people are already doing, along with the things I thought of for Kal (empowering others, he already is, being the strength others need now, to conserve their own strength later, etc). I'm thinking something along the line of "I will encounter and contend with those who take action against the helpess for their own sake".

 

Which would put him opposed to Taravangian, and potentially Dalinar.

 

Makes character sense, and narrative sense to me.

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5 hours ago, MoS03 said:

 "I will encounter and contend with those who take action against the helpess for their own sake".

Well he has been doing this he’s entire life with Hating lighteyes 

So there’s not any real development and wouldn’t take any strength for him to say

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Fair enough. Could be even simpler, and "I am the shield" and he will never use another weapon? Idk.

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On 3/13/2021 at 7:46 PM, MoS03 said:

Fair enough. Could be even simpler, and "I am the shield" and he will never use another weapon? Idk.

I don't think that makes any sense, because radiants, while a source of good were also a primarily military organization.

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Posted (edited)

I think it should be the embodiment of the ideals.
I am the Law!
I am Honor!
I enforce Oaths!
I am Helpful!

etc.
Just my humble opinion!  The question is does taking the 5th oath make you a Herald, and is there only one allowed?

Edited by hskeeter
spelling mistake
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7 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

I think it should be the embodiment of the ideals.
I am the Law!
I am Honor!
I enforce Oaths!
I am Helpful!

etc.
Just my humble opinion!  The question is does taking the 5th oath make you a Harold, and is there only one allowed?

No, 5th ideal does not make you a Herald

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My thoughts on the Windrunner 5th, granted from a Kaladin POV:

 

Spoiler

I will kill those I love to protect (insert any variation of helpless as perceived by Kal)

Spoiler
Spoiler

 

 

And I hit the spoiler button eleventy times, for no reason...

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On 3/15/2021 at 9:00 AM, Shard of Reading said:

I don't think that makes any sense, because radiants, while a source of good were also a primarily military organization.

And very few Radiants reached the 5th Ideal

And I think you underestimate the importance of a flying group of shields in a military organization.

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