Maddie The Survivor Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) So, what do you think the 5th ideal will be? In my opinion I think it will have something to do with the radiant bond with their spren. Maybe the ideals will be the same? Well, I want your guys opinion. Edited February 21, 2021 by HaileyTheMistborn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, HaileyTheMistborn said: So, what do you think the 5th ideal will be? In my opinion I think it will have something to do with the radiant bond with their spren. Maybe the ideals will be the same? Well, I want your guys opinion. Well, we know one Fifth Radient Ideal, that being the Skybreakers and Becoming the Law. So they are likely the combination of what all their oaths have been leading to, rather than having to do with their spren or being the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 I will chose who is worthy of protections ( gets rid of the 3rd ideal crutch) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffles Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 "I will protect this world from devastation" 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 Is it stupid that I just want to base them all off the Skybreaker one? "I am the Wind" "I am the Stone" And etc. Probably not, but if only it was that simple. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinity Sliver Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Waffles said: "I will protect this world from devastation" "And Unite all people within our nation" -- Bondsmith Edited March 11, 2021 by Infinitysliver 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinkoln Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 On 2/21/2021 at 7:25 AM, Bejardin1250 said: I will chose who is worthy of protections This sounds a lot like when Moash and Graves tried to kill Elhokar, deeming him unworthy of protection and life. I’m not sure that would be an ideal. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacitus Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 44 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said: "And Unite all people within our nation" "To denounce the evils of truth and love" 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Leuthie Posted March 11, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 The Ideal of Law is an Oath of consistency. It doesn't invalidate previous Oaths. Rather, in concert with previous Oaths, it solidifies the Skybreaker as an embodiment of a constant set of Ideals (actually, the consistency of these Laws are in dispute as it's possible that the 5th Ideal Skybreaker can change them over time. I believe this caveat is along the lines of the Constitution being a "living document" that can be changed by legal precedent and Amendment to meet current needs). Previous to this Oath, the Skybreaker was "practicing" with certain modes of Law. This Ideal makes permanent a specific set of Laws that the Skybreaker will follow and enforce forever (see caveat above). To do anything that isn't consistent with the chosen set of Laws is to break the 5th Oath. Nale might be crazy, but he is forced by Oath to follow that craziness consistently. His 5th Oath gave him no choice but to join Odium's side when he interpreted that Odium's side is the righteous side, for instance. Let's put this "solidification" Ideal onto a Windrunner: Life before death, etc. I will protect something ("...those who cannot protect themselves" were the words spoken by both Kaladin and Lopen, but Lopen was copying what Kaladin said the Oath was. It's possible others may choose a different set of people to protect) I will protect even those I was excluding when I spoke the second Oath. ("I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." by Kaladin (Kaladin excluded those he hated from the 2nd Oath), "I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself." by Teft (Teft excluded himself from protection in the 2nd Oath), "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself." by Lopen (Lopen excluded protecting those he hurt with his words). I will accept my failures (Kaladin was the only one we've seen, and he needed to accept those who he couldn't protect. Others may have some other failure or hangup caused by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths that will lead to a different target for this Ideal. Teft, for instance, may have needed to forgive himself for failing himself, Lopen may need to allow himself to joke around again, etc.) The 2nd Oath defines purpose. The 3rd extends that purpose beyond what was assumed when the 2nd was spoken. The 4th is a pressure relief valve, solving an inevitable issue that arises with the 2nd and 3rd Ideals. The journey is obviously one meant to create a constant, functional protector. What is missing to "solidify" that journey? Something simple but all encompassing. Something that anchors the previous 4 Ideals without invalidating them. I don't have a good answer, but there's some setup for someone else. 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinkoln Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 23 minutes ago, Leuthie said: The Ideal of Law is an Oath of consistency. It doesn't invalidate previous Oaths. Rather, in concert with previous Oaths, it solidifies the Skybreaker as an embodiment of a constant set of Ideals (actually, the consistency of these Laws are in dispute as it's possible that the 5th Ideal Skybreaker can change them over time. I believe this caveat is along the lines of the Constitution being a "living document" that can be changed by legal precedent and Amendment to meet current needs). Previous to this Oath, the Skybreaker was "practicing" with certain modes of Law. This Ideal makes permanent a specific set of Laws that the Skybreaker will follow and enforce forever (see caveat above). To do anything that isn't consistent with the chosen set of Laws is to break the 5th Oath. Nale might be crazy, but he is forced by Oath to follow that craziness consistently. His 5th Oath gave him no choice but to join Odium's side when he interpreted that Odium's side is the righteous side, for instance. Let's put this "solidification" Ideal onto a Windrunner: Life before death, etc. I will protect something ("...those who cannot protect themselves" were the words spoken by both Kaladin and Lopen, but Lopen was copying what Kaladin said the Oath was. It's possible others may choose a different set of people to protect) I will protect even those I was excluding when I spoke the second Oath. ("I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." by Kaladin (Kaladin excluded those he hated from the 2nd Oath), "I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself." by Teft (Teft excluded himself from protection in the 2nd Oath), "I've got to protect people, you know? Even from myself." by Lopen (Lopen excluded protecting those he hurt with his words). I will accept my failures (Kaladin was the only one we've seen, and he needed to accept those who he couldn't protect. Others may have some other failure or hangup caused by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths that will lead to a different target for this Ideal. Teft, for instance, may have needed to forgive himself for failing himself, Lopen may need to allow himself to joke around again, etc.) The 2nd Oath defines purpose. The 3rd extends that purpose beyond what was assumed when the 2nd was spoken. The 4th is a pressure relief valve, solving an inevitable issue that arises with the 2nd and 3rd Ideals. The journey is obviously one meant to create a constant, functional protector. What is missing to "solidify" that journey? Something simple but all encompassing. Something that anchors the previous 4 Ideals without invalidating them. I don't have a good answer, but there's some setup for someone else. This is an amazing analysis of the Windrunner oaths!!!! Well done, this will help people understand them for a long time to come, and I personally am going to reference this post quite often when answering questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 I think it has to do with: If two people are in front of u who do you save or killing those you love to protect ( I got that one from the “stop killing each other” scene in OB where he can’t save the ones he loves because he loves the other side too) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 5 hours ago, Leuthie said: [snip] I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apepi Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 41 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things. Maybe like....."Sometimes people can only save themselves" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I've liked the idea of sort of taking a more proactive role than reactive one, making a world that doesn't need you to constantly be protecting it. This could manifest as a teacher training others to protect themselves, as a mediator taking a leadership role to avoid conflict, as a therapist helping people fight their own demons, those kinds of things. "I will empower others to protect themselves" seems like a very valid 5th Ideal that doesn't invalidate the previous ones. It also seems a little too easy and natural, making the 5th Ideal something that nearly every 4th Ideal Windrunner would reach. Edited March 12, 2021 by Leuthie Added a con to my pro 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbnguevara Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) I will Embrace the Essence of Honor Live Love and Fight to Protect Life. Not scripture but I see the 5th going along these lines. I see Dalinar's Discussion with Taravangion after the betrayal as foreshadowing ideals Edited March 13, 2021 by rbnguevara 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmTheStick Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) I was also thinking along the lines of teaching others to protect themselves. We've seen before that the radiants were very clearly not just soldiers. They also helped the common people build, heal, and fight. Another idea I had was something about protecting yourself, because you can't protect others if you're dead or otherwise incapacitated. (Yay that one first aid class I took a long time ago!) This ideal doesn't seem to be the last ideal, though, because of Teft's ideal. Alternatively, it could be something about sacrifice. Not protecting people for the greater good. It doesn't seem quite like it fits to me, but it's an idea. Edited March 13, 2021 by IAmTheStick A dumb missing "s" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinkoln Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 46 minutes ago, IAmTheStick said: I was also thinking along the lines of teaching others to protect themselves. We've seen before that the radiants were very clearly not just soldiers. They also helped the common people build, heal, and fight. I had an idea somewhere along there lines. I think it might be “I will prevent protection from being needed” or “I will mediate to prevent the danger that requires protection” 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS03 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 The "living document" argument is weak, because laws themselves can be illegal (look at the US and "gun control" legislation). Every radiant has unique oaths beyond the first. Nal's becoming of the law, could be Szeth's becoming of Dalinar's will w/o Dalinar's input. A lot of the suggestions posted have been things people are already doing, along with the things I thought of for Kal (empowering others, he already is, being the strength others need now, to conserve their own strength later, etc). I'm thinking something along the line of "I will encounter and contend with those who take action against the helpess for their own sake". Which would put him opposed to Taravangian, and potentially Dalinar. Makes character sense, and narrative sense to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 5 hours ago, MoS03 said: "I will encounter and contend with those who take action against the helpess for their own sake". Well he has been doing this he’s entire life with Hating lighteyes So there’s not any real development and wouldn’t take any strength for him to say 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS03 Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Fair enough. Could be even simpler, and "I am the shield" and he will never use another weapon? Idk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shard of Reading Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 On 3/13/2021 at 7:46 PM, MoS03 said: Fair enough. Could be even simpler, and "I am the shield" and he will never use another weapon? Idk. I don't think that makes any sense, because radiants, while a source of good were also a primarily military organization. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hskeeter Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) I think it should be the embodiment of the ideals. I am the Law! I am Honor! I enforce Oaths! I am Helpful! etc. Just my humble opinion! The question is does taking the 5th oath make you a Herald, and is there only one allowed? Edited March 15, 2021 by hskeeter spelling mistake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 7 minutes ago, hskeeter said: I think it should be the embodiment of the ideals. I am the Law! I am Honor! I enforce Oaths! I am Helpful! etc. Just my humble opinion! The question is does taking the 5th oath make you a Harold, and is there only one allowed? No, 5th ideal does not make you a Herald 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockheart Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 My thoughts on the Windrunner 5th, granted from a Kaladin POV: Spoiler I will kill those I love to protect (insert any variation of helpless as perceived by Kal) Spoiler Spoiler And I hit the spoiler button eleventy times, for no reason... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 19, 2021 Report Share Posted March 19, 2021 On 3/15/2021 at 9:00 AM, Shard of Reading said: I don't think that makes any sense, because radiants, while a source of good were also a primarily military organization. And very few Radiants reached the 5th Ideal And I think you underestimate the importance of a flying group of shields in a military organization. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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