Book 5 timestuff

[AvatarofOdium]

After watching the shardcast video that was uploaded today, a point was brought up about a timejump happening IN book 5. Outside of any WOBs I am unaware of this is pure speculation, but what do we think about this?

While we have a 10-day deadline for the contest of champions, but we obviously we have boatload of content needing to be shoved in such a small space, and while it is surely possible the entire book will span these 10 days, it's equally possible to go beyond this time, which could result in some Catacendre level event that subsequently results in a time-skip. Thematically speaking, I don't think a large portion of the book would follow this time-skip, perhaps part 5 at most, although his however would also mean that the entire book will almost entirely be the 10 day countdown.

So then how much of the book is the actual 10 days? Are we going to see chapters of a section of the book dedicated to bridging the timeline between the front and back halves? The timing of everything has me really intrigued... I am feeling like the "10 days" is something myself and others are sure to be hung up on and may not end up being as big of a deal as presented or I am making it out to be.

[AquaRegia]

I remember feeling the same way as I finished RoW: "wait, so all of Book 5 will happen in 10 days, wrapping up with the Contest?!?"  I share your concern; I don't think I've ever read anything with a big time jump in middle that didn't feel vaguely unsatisfying, and sometimes the whole "fifteen years later" thing just completely dumps my brain right out of the story.  Usually, "Epilogue, fifteen years later" is the WORST - I feel completely cheated.  Here are my thoughts at the moment.  Please keep in mind I'm nowhere near the most knowledgeable or insightful Sanderfan.

1)  Szeth and Kaladin are going to Shinovar.  Presumably, Szeth knows exactly where he wants to go, and they can both literally fly, so it shouldn't take long for the important action to start.  Once there, A LOT of stuff can happen in ten days.

2)  Shallan and Adolin, I'm guessing, will be searching for Ba-Ado-Mishram.  They don't the ability to travel as quickly, so I'm less confident about how long it will take... but there is at least the possibility that a lot can happen in ten days on that front as well.

3)  I expect Navani will stay at the Tower, and Dalinar has Oathgates and Windrunners to fly him around if he needs to be elsewhere, so important action can begin quickly for them.

4)  TOdium, being a god, can provide us with multiple chapters worth of experiences which take only seconds in-world.  I hope we see plenty of his Champion-choosing process.

This, along with all the other characters available (coughGavilarKholincoughcough), looks to be enough for Parts 1-2-3, maybe even 4.  Then the rest of the novel is post-Contest of Champions, dealing with the fallout.  Frankly, I hope there is no big timeskip.  I should probably watch the Shardcast, but right now I don't see a compelling need for an in-book time jump.

One thing I find really interesting is the possibility that Brandon himself might be wrestling with the same issue.  I know he's got the whole story outlined already... but each novel still requires decisions about the details of how the action is shown.  Is he wondering right now whether a time jump is the most effective way to show the events that need to happen in Stormlight 5?

[Draigwyrdd]

I don't think book 5 necessarily has to only span 10 days. I think thematically there are good reasons for it to do so, but narratively there seem to be quite a few things that need to happen within those ten days and it might be difficult to resolve them in that time. I could see perhaps half the book taking ten days, and the rest of the book happens after the ten days.

But also, I find that it's equally possible for it to only take place over 10 days. They have a lot of options for fast/instantaneous transportation after all. Even though Shallan and Adolin don't have their own ability to fly, and that they probably won't be able to use an Oathgate to go where they need to go, there is a whole order of Windrunners who are, like, partially for ferrying around people who can't fly. 

[AvatarofOdium]

14 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

1)  Szeth and Kaladin are going to Shinovar.  Presumably, Szeth knows exactly where he wants to go, and they can both literally fly, so it shouldn't take long for the important action to start.  Once there, A LOT of stuff can happen in ten days.

2)  Shallan and Adolin, I'm guessing, will be searching for Ba-Ado-Mishram.  They don't the ability to travel as quickly, so I'm less confident about how long it will take... but there is at least the possibility that a lot can happen in ten days on that front as well.

3)  I expect Navani will stay at the Tower, and Dalinar has Oathgates and Windrunners to fly him around if he needs to be elsewhere, so important action can begin quickly for them.

4)  TOdium, being a god, can provide us with multiple chapters worth of experiences which take only seconds in-world.  I hope we see plenty of his Champion-choosing process.

This, along with all the other characters available (coughGavilarKholincoughcough), looks to be enough for Parts 1-2-3, maybe even 4.  Then the rest of the novel is post-Contest of Champions, dealing with the fallout.  Frankly, I hope there is no big timeskip.  I should probably watch the Shardcast, but right now I don't see a compelling need for an in-book time jump.

One thing I find really interesting is the possibility that Brandon himself might be wrestling with the same issue.  I know he's got the whole story outlined already... but each novel still requires decisions about the details of how the action is shown.  Is he wondering right now whether a time jump is the most effective way to show the events that need to happen in Stormlight 5?

1) While travel sure does seem easy for both of these two, the nature of their visit, to me feels WAY heavier than what could be done in 10 days.

2) These two don't have any inherant fast travel but sure could use some, but once again finding BAM seems like a task that should take longer than 10 days seeing as they've had a year to do it?

3) Definitely hoping for more Dalinar this book, also as much bondsmith mumbo jumbo with Navani and him. Do we have any indication what he should even be doing in this next book? We know he plans to opt as his own champ, for some reason I don't think that'll happen, but is he just going to end up making plans in the tower for the contest? That is the only thing I could see taking 10 days .

4) I would not hate padding the book with Odium in the Spiritual realm at all, certainly a way Brandon could get the contest in part 5.

 

I too hope for no large timeskip in this book and that it is reserved for the switch to the back half. But I sort of also do not want a book that is almost entirely spanning 10 days. I am almost hoping the contest event happens in part 1 or 2 and we just look at the fallout or additional conflict(s) for the rest of the book. Stormlight has a decent amount a webs weaved that another part of the story could come to the forefront after contest events. I would say though that if it does get resolved early it'll probably go well for Odium as I do not think he is going away soon.

[Bejarden]

My pet theory of Navani is

Since she is now Voice of Lights she is on par with most fused, maybe all

She will go to Kholinar to negotiate with the Fused

and/or BAM is in Kholinar and shallan adolin and navani will go there but navani will go under pretense of negotiation 

[Frustration]

53 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

My pet theory of Navani is

Since she is now Voice of Lights she is on par with most fused, maybe all

um, no, That's like saying that someone with a presidential medal of Honor is on par with the Supreme court

[Bejarden]

“Your discoveries so far are enough to recommend you as my equal” (RoW chapter 89)

I took this+title to mean she is equal to Raboniel one of the highest fused

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

“Your discoveries so far are enough to recommend you as my equal” (RoW chapter 89)

I took this+title to mean she is equal to Raboniel one of the highest fused

Raboniel can treat Navani as an equal, but she does not have the power to force Odium, or the Nine to accept that, and they won't.

Ulim talks about Fused handing out tittles en mass, it's just something they do.

[ftl]

I've always thought that the contest is not going to be the climax of the book - it's going to be the midpoint. Narratively, it'll be at the same point in the story that the Siege of Urithiru was in book 4. It'll be the big mid-book setback for the heroes - Taravangian is going to find some way to weasel out of the contest.

We had some foreshadowing of that in book 4. Wit talking about how he once lost a win-win situation by forgetting to specify what happens in case of a draw. Dalinar and Navani both agreeing "even if we lose the contest, humanity's gonna be ok". I think that's setting up for the contest to happen mid-book, and for the heroes to somehow have an outcome that's scarier than just losing - I think it'll be Odium somehow finding a way to nullify the agreement.

That way, there doesn't need to be a timeskip - the action will just continue.

[Quick Ben]

This is first i have seen a time skip within book 5 mentioned, is this confirmed ?

[ftl]

No, it is not.

[Orlion Blight]

I do think there is plenty that can happen that would take only 10 days and give us a full  Stormlight book. 

No, not everything will resolve, some plot points, like, say that involving a certain mad Herald or two, will bleed over into the second series. 

Really, the only thing that NEEDS to be resolved is the Contest of Champions and Kaladin saying the fifth oath. Everything else is either subservient to those two plot points, all ready resolved or can continue in the second series. 

[+Child of Hodor]

I think most of book 5 will take place in the 10 days. The big climax will be day 10 and the falling action may take place later.

Right before RoW was released Brandon said he did something in book 4 that will make book 5 a “headache” for him and Karen. Karen is the continuity editor.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/442/#e14287

Here is Karen talking about how much work goes into tracking the timeline and continuity in a Stormlight book.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/292/#e7832

They will have to keep careful track of when all the different POVs happen in relation to each other, where the storms are at that time, what moon is in the sky all that stuff. If most of the book unfolds in 10 days that’s a ton of stuff happening at virtually the same time. 

[Could Be Fire]

On 2/27/2021 at 1:56 PM, Child of Hodor said:

They will have to keep careful track of when all the different POVs happen in relation to each other, where the storms are at that time, what moon is in the sky all that stuff. If most of the book unfolds in 10 days that’s a ton of stuff happening at virtually the same time. 

Exactly! If he splits up the characters then ten days could easily take up the whole book. It's also sort of lighting the beacon's moment where everyone's cards get laid on the table. At this point, there's lots of possibility for 'fast travel' (Oathgates, Windrunners, possibly Willshapers/Elsecallers soon). There's also external pressure. The characters know that challenge is coming, so there's internal pressure to finish their missions before the timer. Dalniar explicitly told Kaladin to figure out the whole Ishar/Shinovar thing before the challenge.

Also, there are Szeth's flashbacks to pad out the run time. Shinovar has been a black box since the start, so there's a lot that could be revealed. 

On 2/21/2021 at 9:45 PM, AvatarofOdium said:

finding BAM seems like a task that should take longer than 10 days seeing as they've had a year to do it?

BAM could take forever, but I think they could also be found very quickly if Shallan can figure where to look. Kalak and Nale were both there when she was captured, and Kalak is arguing for her release. Even if he doesn't know exactly where to find her, he may be able to give some serious leads. They're not searching blindly. 

[Jofwu]

I'm also betting Stormlight 5 happens mostly within the 10 days.

I think we'll get the contest/climax in Part 4 with a Part 5 that's all falling action, epilogue-y type stuff, and a bit of setup for the future books.

Alternatively... I definitely think there's a chance that the contest goes off the rails, particularly because Odium has a loophole in mind. I could definitely the champions meeting for the contest and then... something happens which invalidates the deal and makes the contest void. If Brandon goes this route. I suppose the contest (thus the end of the 10 days) would probably be in Part 3. Because you'd need more time to deal with whatever happens next.

Kaladin and Szeth can easily do whatever it is that they need to do in Shinovar within 10 days, and get back to Urithiru. They need to get back because a big piece of this arc is about tracking down Ishar, so Dalinar will need to be involved with whatever happens there. I bet they open the Shinovar Oathgate, so getting back (or bringing Dalinar out there) is easy peasy. I'm assuming we will get some kind of Kaladin-Moash showdown during the climax.

Shallan and Adolin are harder to predict because we don't know where Ba-Ado-Mishram is... But we've got plenty of Windrunners for travel, a Jasnah who can pull them out of Shadesmar at any location, and Shallan has a Seon that can be used to communicate with them from Shadesmar. They should have no problem getting to wherever they need to be in a day or two. We still have the unresolved plot point of all the deadeyes outside Lasting Integrity, so I wouldn't be surprised if Part 1 is about resolving that and setting up Shallan's next step, and then Part 2 is Shallan going after Ba-Ado-Mishram. I don't really feel like Shallan needs to be present for the contest, so that could very likely drag on into Parts 3/4 with BAM being released during the contest. (If we take the "things go off the rails" approach, maybe this is part of why that happens.)

I dunno... We've seen the books take longer in the past... Stormlight books usually span about 2 months I think. But it feels like this is usually done for development purposes. We need time for the characters to experience change. Kaladin could have gone from the Honor Chasm to saving Dalinar in the next chapter.... It just would have been terrible storytelling because you couldn't believe any of the character motivations involved. In Oathbringer Part 4 Brandon could have given Kaladin some Stormlight and had them fly somewhere to skip the Shadesmar travel sequence. He didn't because we needed time to process Part 3 for ALL the characters, and to do some Shadesmar worldbuilding. But this is book 5. We're done with most of the character and plot development.

Rhythm of War Parts 3, 4, and 5 take place over something like 22 days. No particular reason Brandon can't have the story hit the ground running at full sprint.

[Leuthie]

My guess: The primary conflict in Book 5 will be fallout from the consequences of the Contest, not the Contest itself. This fallout will be Roshar-wide and will effect each storyline, both inhibiting and providing the solutions to the other storylines.

That would put the Contest in Part 2 at the latest. I'm guessing the Contest will be the end of Part 1.

It's also possible that the Contest happens in Part 3 and the back half and Sanderlanch will be all about the fallout.

One of those two.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Leuthie

[apepi]

What if....First scene we get the big fight. Between the two champions, two people who we already know. We even see who wins...but we don't know who is on who's side.

Then we rewind all the way back and bam, the rest of the books starts.

[Bejarden]

I think end of part two will be the fight... 

Then we’ll get BAMs release and the fallout

[Ashbringer]

I have a sinking feeling about the contest in that there won't be a winner. There might not even be much of a contest.

The rules are, as I remember, that two willing champions (Dalinar and Odium's Champion) meet at the top of Urithiru, and whoever is left alive wins.

There's also a large set of theories of T-Odium choosing a champion Dalinar can't or won't kill, such as Gavilar or Gavinor. (I do wonder what would happen if it was someone like Nale or Ishar who could probably just flat out kill Dalinar if he can't get his Bondsmith Connection abilities working, but I don't think that's the angle that T would go for.)

Plus, we know there's a timeskip between the Front Half and the Back Half, bordering on fifteen to twenty years.

 

So my theory? Dalinar will climb to the top of Urithiru, and come face to face with someone he can't bring himself to kill. Gavinor being most likely, perhaps influenced into agreeing to the contest not knowing its meaning or gravity. The Contest begins... but it doesn't end. Neither will kill the other, so there is no winner. Both sides may try and make a fragile peace, but with no Oaths and no outcome from the contest, things will be tenuous. Peace but no resolution.

Not for fifteen to twenty years, when Dalinar's old body will finally give out, and the battle for Roshar can truly begin.

[Leuthie]

10 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

So my theory? Dalinar will climb to the top of Urithiru, and come face to face with someone he can't bring himself to kill. Gavinor being most likely, perhaps influenced into agreeing to the contest not knowing its meaning or gravity. The Contest begins... but it doesn't end. Neither will kill the other, so there is no winner. Both sides may try and make a fragile peace, but with no Oaths and no outcome from the contest, things will be tenuous. Peace but no resolution.

Not for fifteen to twenty years, when Dalinar's old body will finally give out, and the battle for Roshar can truly begin.

Interesting thought, but way too anti-climactic and cliffhangery.

Gavinor exists for a reason, and he was being groomed by voidspren prior to his rescue for a reason, so I have no doubt of the possibility that the reason he exists is to put a wrench in the Contest. Rayse is often being characterized as dumb, but so is Donald Trump. These aren't dumb people, just people with blindspots. Rayse accepted this Contest that locks him to Roshar whether he wins or loses because he already knew a way to turn it to his advantage (even though he's already done this Gambit business with Dalinar and lost, so maybe he is dumb). Taravangian has the same knowledge, and is definitely not considered dumb.

Narratively, creating a stalemate isn't very satisfying. Conflicting Oaths might add the required tension (Dalinar's Oaths to Stormfather vs. Dalinar's oath to Odium) and create a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, followed by unintended consequences, from which even more clichés appear like cybugs after drinking a caramel lake (Wreck-It Ralph reference). But that doesn't seem like Sanderson, either.

The Contest will be about Trust and Connection. Odium will hit Dalinar with a series of Trust issues, and Dalinar will utilize his Connection abilities to see through them. If you've finished Wheel of Time, think Rand vs. the Dark One. Sanderson wrote that (based on Robert Jordan's notes), so if that type of encounter isn't part of this series, I'll eat my shoe. Ultimately, Dalinar will win by losing, buying 15 years of pyrrhic victory, but creating a mess for everyone in the meantime. Dealing with this mess will make up the bulk of book 5.

[AvatarofOdium]

On 3/8/2021 at 6:49 AM, Jofwu said:

Shallan and Adolin are harder to predict because we don't know where Ba-Ado-Mishram is... But we've got plenty of Windrunners for travel, a Jasnah who can pull them out of Shadesmar at any location, and Shallan has a Seon that can be used to communicate with them from Shadesmar. They should have no problem getting to wherever they need to be in a day or two. We still have the unresolved plot point of all the deadeyes outside Lasting Integrity, so I wouldn't be surprised if Part 1 is about resolving that and setting up Shallan's next step, and then Part 2 is Shallan going after Ba-Ado-Mishram. I don't really feel like Shallan needs to be present for the contest, so that could very likely drag on into Parts 3/4 with BAM being released during the contest. (If we take the "things go off the rails" approach, maybe this is part of why that happens.)

Well I think settling BAM will either directly or indirectly lead to the fix to the deadeye issue retroactively. So these might be part of a single event rather than two in order and that can help conserve time and preserve the narrative.

On 3/8/2021 at 6:49 AM, Jofwu said:

I dunno... We've seen the books take longer in the past... Stormlight books usually span about 2 months I think. But it feels like this is usually done for development purposes. We need time for the characters to experience change. Kaladin could have gone from the Honor Chasm to saving Dalinar in the next chapter.... It just would have been terrible storytelling because you couldn't believe any of the character motivations involved. In Oathbringer Part 4 Brandon could have given Kaladin some Stormlight and had them fly somewhere to skip the Shadesmar travel sequence. He didn't because we needed time to process Part 3 for ALL the characters, and to do some Shadesmar worldbuilding. But this is book 5. We're done with most of the character and plot development.

Rhythm of War Parts 3, 4, and 5 take place over something like 22 days. No particular reason Brandon can't have the story hit the ground running at full sprint.

This, this is actually a really good point and brings me back to a point I touched upon in my original post, the fact that there is a presumed announced amount of time book should/will cover is hanging me up, and it probably shouldn't. The explicit timeline of the narrative while I am reading is often obscure to me and besides the point, so it is good to take a step back and understand that other books take up a time that relatively isn't THAT much greater in time (and focused more on character development). So not only could book 5 very well be almost the entire 10 days, but it shouldn't even feel rushed, or as rushed as I am making it in my head.

 

[apepi]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:49 AM, Jofwu said:

I dunno... We've seen the books take longer in the past... Stormlight books usually span about 2 months I think. But it feels like this is usually done for development purposes. We need time for the characters to experience change. Kaladin could have gone from the Honor Chasm to saving Dalinar in the next chapter.... It just would have been terrible storytelling because you couldn't believe any of the character motivations involved. In Oathbringer Part 4 Brandon could have given Kaladin some Stormlight and had them fly somewhere to skip the Shadesmar travel sequence. He didn't because we needed time to process Part 3 for ALL the characters, and to do some Shadesmar worldbuilding. But this is book 5. We're done with most of the character and plot development.

It is almost like...it is about the journey, not the destination.