LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) I mentioned in my Dawnshards and Microkinesis theory[1] a few times that I was going to be writing another related theory. Took longer than I expected, but here we are. (0.) TL;DR I theorize that several Surges share a connection to Dawnshards, though whether this is purely thematic, or due to perception shenanigans, or in some way related directly, I am unsure. These Surges are Cohesion, Transformation, and Division. (1.) Cohesion Spoiler This was inspired by asmodeus's post The Strange Case of Hoid and Radiance[2], so I'd recommend reading that first. I'll be covering everything necessary here, but it's an interesting post on its own, and has parts that aren't gonna be brought up here, as they aren't relevant to this. Hoid: Hoid was a Dawnshard[3] Hoid once swore a vow that “...I’d always be there when I was needed.”[4] Hoid had a topaz with "mystical properties"[5], which is related to his status as a Dawnshard[6] Hoid had microkinesis[7] (which I feel is likely due to his Dawnshard-ness)[1] Stonewards: The Second Ideal of the Stonewards follows the theme "I will be there when I'm needed"[8] The topaz is the polestone of the Stonewards[9] Stonewards have Cohesion, a cousin of microkinesis[10] Hoid is probably not a Stoneward, as we have seen no indication of him being a Radiant or having a spren, and the fact he is trapped on Roshar now[11] but was on other planets prior[12][13] is proof he likely did not have such a bond. The "cousin" power with a relation to a magic gem of the type of the polestone for the order seems like a reasonable next place to look. Rysn did not seem to make any vow when picking up her Dawnshard[14], but this is something we barely understand. Perhaps using it requires an Intent sufficiently aligned with its Command, or perhaps it requires integrating the Command into yourself in some way. Or perhaps it was a special part of how he acquired it. Whatever the specifics are, I feel it's probably related to the Dawnshard. A curious bit of information: Aon Are means Cohesion/Unity.[15] (2.) Transformation Spoiler (This one won't be as neatly laid out as the Cohesion one, sorry.) Rysn's Dawnshard is described as "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change."[16] Additionally, when she gets it, it tells her to "Accept it. Know it. CHANGE."[17] Based on this, it's generally referred to as Change (or sometimes Remake, based on another line[16]), which I agree with. Some parallels with Soulcasting: Transformation is "the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better"[20] Jasnah Soulcasts by giving it the command "change"[21] Soulcasting works by convincing something it should change[19] I find it interesting that both Change and Transformation are not just change, but more specifically, something remaking itself into something new and better. Jasnah giving something "a single command. Change." shortly after we learn see the Command Change is also somewhat eyebrow-raising. (Now, I don't think Jasnah has a Dawnshard. I just think it's supposed to be a noticeable parallel between Transformation and the Dawnshard Change.) Another bit of Aonic: Aon Shao is Transform/Change[22] (and is also used, with many modifiers, to make illusions[23]). (3.) Division Spoiler (This is the flimsiest of the three theories.) (This part will take a few steps to get to, though it's a common enough theory you likely don't need it.) Adhesion, "Honor's Truest Surge", can work through the suppressor[24] Lift's Abrasion does not work, but her Progression does[25] Some theorize that this might mean Progression is to Cultivation as Adhesion is to Honor, as it fits pretty closely to Cultivation's Intent Okay, onto the actual newer theory part: Transformation and Cohesion are each one Surge away from both each other and either Adhesion or Progression[18] Division is the only other Surge in this position, and is one away from both Adhesion and Progression[18] In the Prime page, Jerick's got a form of microkinesis that is described as the "power of destruction"[7], which under my theory, comes from a Dawnshard[1] As mentioned, this is even flimsier than the rest, as it is based entirely on a pattern based on other theories and on a different theory based on a non-canon piece of information. But for various other reasons, something that happens to align with Division is a common theory for a Dawnshard, so who knows. No Aon here, unfortunately. (4.) Some Concluding Thoughts Spoiler If these are true, then I'm not sure what the actual connection is, but there do seem to be strong parallels between two of the Surges and two Dawnshards (one a confirmed Dawnshard, one the effects of an unknown Dawnshard + fits probably the most common Dawnshard theory). Additionally, a third has some potential parallels, though there is extremely little to go off, so I am not remotely confident in that one. Some miscellaneous thoughts: Is the "one Dawnshard [that] is different from all the rest"[26] the one not represented in Surgebinding? If so, is that the reason it is different, or is it not being represented an effect of the difference? Were these Dawnshards all in the Rosharan system, and if so, why? Change is clearly in the system If some sort of Unite Dawnshard does exist (which I haven't loved as an idea, but isn't super unlikely) it's probably there If a Destroy Dawnshard exists and is indeed in Nightblood as commonly theorized (which once again, don't love but could be), that a.) is in the system now, b.) was put in the sword by someone who'd been in the system, and c.) would fit what happened to Ashyn pretty well[27] How and why are they related? Does this extend to other magics besides Dawnshards and Surgebinding (ex. AonDor)? (Man, a lot of this just ends in "I have no idea how but something along these lines", lol.) Edit: Brandon's said there were "seeds" that led to the ideas of the Surges.[28] Perhaps the two Shards and these three Dawnshards are the seeds in question? At some point, the Rosharans learn of them, and the idea of these five fundamental forces evolves into the ten Surges, carrying along with them certain connotations? (I.) References Spoiler Dawnshards and Microkinesis theory The Strange Case of Hoid and Radiance Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020) Quote Brandon Sanderson Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer cannon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.) And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point. Oathbringer, chapter 68 Quote “When I was young…” he said. “Yes?” “I made a vow.” Shallan nodded, wide-eyed. “I said I’d always be there when I was needed.” “And you have been?” “Yes.” Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015) Quote ParadoxicalZen The Second Letter, Frost mentions a gemstone, is that in the Moon Scepter? Brandon Sanderson No, good question. That is a topaz, which was associated with him for a long time and had some mystical properties. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020) Quote luiz_m2 Is the fact that Hoid has been a Dawnshard related in some way with the "bearer of the first gem" title? Brandon Sanderson Yes indeed. Dragonsteel Prime page from the New Years live stream Spoiler Topaz didn't stop his string of curses. "I search all this time, Bat'Chor, and I finally discover another human who can do microkinesis, and he runs off like a Lords-cursed idiot!" "You are certain?" Bat'Chor asked. "He ees like you?" "Yes." "No," Frost corrected, watching Jerick ride away with discerning eyes. "He's not like you, Topaz. You have the power of life—this one has the power of destruction. He worries me." Topaz frowned at the observation. "How do you—" The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020) Quote Brandon Sanderson Stoneward I will be there when I'm needed Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience. Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment. The Way of Kings, Ars Arcanum Quote 9 Tanat Topaz Talus The Bone Rock and stone Dependable Resourceful Rhythm of War, Ars Arcanum Quote The power known as Stoneshaping, as practiced by the orders of Stonewards and Willshapers, is an excellent example of this. This ability manipulates the Surge of Cohesion, and is in many ways a cousin to the axial manipulation known as microkinesis—as both grant the ability to manipulate the forces that bind individual axi together. Fortunately, in my explorations, it appears that Stoneshaping is far less … explosive of a power, bounded by the rules that Honor placed upon it to protect from the mistakes that happened on Yolen. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Quote Questioner (paraphrased) Now that Hoid has bonded a spren, is he locked on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, that is a problem. Something will happen that is relevant. RAFO. Warbreaker, chapter 32 Quote “This is Hoid,” Lightsong said. “Master storyteller. I believe you had some questions you wished to ask…” General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 5, 2020) Quote LewsTherinTelescope How long after Warbreaker does Way of Kings take place? I know you usually don't finalize timeline details until they actually are stated in-book, but are you willing to say how far apart the books are, in the current plans? Brandon Sanderson I have Warbreaker happening a few generations before, right now. However, I'm very likely to move Elantris up in time, so it's a little in the air at the moment. LewsTherinTelescope Thanks! I assume asking why Elantris being moved affects how far apart Warbreaker and Way of Kings are is a behind-the-scenes thing and/or RAFO? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it does. The big linchpin is going to be when I need Sel and Scadrial to align when big crossovers start happening. We'll know in a few years; there are things I intend to write that I could imagine needing to change, after they're finished, that will influence the timeline structure. Dawnshard, chapter 16 Quote (no specific quote, due to length of sequence) Elantris, Ars Arcanum Quote ARE Unity, Cohesion (Arelon, Aredel, Maare, Waren) Dawnshard, chapter 19 Quote Storms, she thought. What have I done? What you needed to, another part of her thought. You have adapted. You have Remade yourself. It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change. Dawnshard, chapter 16 Quote Guardian of Ancient Sins, she thought. What did that mean? Why did the idea repeat over and over in her mind? She felt the mural looming. Overshadowing her. Slowly, she turned and gazed up at the exploding sun. Accept it. Know it. CHANGE. It stilled, waiting. Waiting for . . . “Yes,” Rysn whispered. Something slammed into her mind. It streamed from the mural through her eyes, searing her skull. It gripped her, held to her, joined with her. Light consumed Rysn entirely. A moment later, she found herself panting on the ground. She blinked, then felt at her eyes. Though tears leaked from the corners, her skin wasn’t on fire, and she hadn’t been blinded. She glanced up at the mural and noted it was unchanged. Except . . . she no longer felt warmth from it. It was only a mural. Beautiful, yes, but no longer . . . No longer what? What had changed? Words of Radiance, Ars Arcanum Quote Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum Gravitation: The Surge of Gravity Division: The Surge of Destruction and Decay Abrasion: The Surge of Friction Progression: The Surge of Growth and Healing, or Regrowth Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms Transformation: The Surge of Soulcasting Transportation: The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition Cohesion: The Surge of Strong Axial Interconnection Tension: The Surge of Soft Axial Interconnection Words of Radiance, chapter 7 Quote (no specific quote, due to length of sequence) Rhythm of War, interlude I-2 Quote Sja-anat flowed into the hallway of the palace and met with two of her children, touched windspren. Humans called them “corrupted,” but she hated this term. She did not corrupt. She Enlightened them, showing them that a different path was possible. Did not the humans revere Transformation—the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better—as a core ideal of their religion? Yet they grew angry when she let spren change? Rhythm of War, chapter 64 Quote She reached out to the air, which was stagnant and morose today. Draining Stormlight from the gemstones at her waist, she gave it a single command. Change. No begging, as she’d tried when younger. Only firmness. Elantris, Ars Arcanum Quote SHAO Transform, Change (Shaod, Shaor) Elantris, chapter 49 Quote In a few seconds, the light vanished. Raoden could tell from the startled look on Galladon’s face that he had been successful. “Sule … you’ve done it! You’ve healed yourself!” Raoden shook his head. “I’m afraid not. It’s only an illusion. Look.” He held up his hands, which were still grey and spotted with black. His face, however, was different. He walked over, regarding his reflection in a polished plaque on the end of a bookshelf. The garbled image showed an unfamiliar face—it was free from spots, true, but it didn’t look anything like his real face had before the Shaod had taken him. “An illusion?” Galladon asked. Raoden nodded. “It’s based on Aon Shao, but there are so many things mixed in that the base Aon is almost irrelevant.” Rhythm of War, chapter 40 Quote No, the Sibling said. Get to the pillar, and we could reverse the effects. But otherwise … no. Those highly Invested might not be as strongly affected. Unmade, for example, were sometimes able to push through my suppression. Radiants of the high oaths might be able to access their powers. And Honor’s Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths, could still work. Rhythm of War, chapter 85 Quote She pushed so much Stormlight into Kaladin he started glowing himself. When she sat back, the scabs flaked off his side, leaving smooth new skin. “That … was hard,” she whispered. “Even harder than when I saved Gawx.” She wiped her brow. “I’m sweating.” “Thank you,” Dabbid said, taking her hand. “Ew,” she said. Oh. It was the hand she’d just used to wipe her head. “Thank you,” he said. She shrugged. “My awesomeness—the slippery part—doesn’t work anymore. But this does. Wonder why.” Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014) Quote Curtis Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know? Brandon One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. The Silence Divine reading from Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014) Quote (way too long to include) JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Quote Argent Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. Edited March 2, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope Added: "Seeds" WoB 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 I really like the idea, but also wonder if the KR Orders wouldn't be a better match than Surges. Stonewards for Hoid's Dawnshard, Bondsmiths for hypothesized Unity, and Lightweavers for the Change Dawnshard (as both Transformation and Illumination match it quite well) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 46 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said: I really like the idea, but also wonder if the KR Orders wouldn't be a better match than Surges. Stonewards for Hoid's Dawnshard, Bondsmiths for hypothesized Unity, and Lightweavers for the Change Dawnshard (as both Transformation and Illumination match it quite well) I did consider that, but (very flimsy argument warning) to be perfectly honest, the Surges method is more aesthetically pleasing With these Surges, it ends up being every other Surge is either a Shard or Dawnshard, which forms a nice pattern of the type Rosharans are so fond of (and splitting it with Division as the midline, the locations of the Shard ones are even symmetrical!). If you go by orders, you instead get Bondsmiths and Stonewards next to one another, and Lightweavers and Truthwatchers next to one another, but Stonewards and Lightweavers two apart, and Dustbringers two apart from Bondsmiths but one apart from Truthwatchers. (And swapping Edgedancers in for Truthwatchers or Skybreakers in for Dustbringers isn't any better.) And that's assuming Bondsmiths as Honor and Stonewards as Unite (which admittedly the latter's weird), if we take those both as Dawnshards and Windrunners as Honor, it ends up even worse, lol. It's totally a possibility, though, agreed. I just like it being pretty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Based on this, it's generally referred to as Change (or sometimes Remake, based on another line[16]) This is a better argument for the existence of the Create and Destroy Dawnshard than I've seen even in the topics actually discussing about what the remaining Dawnshards could be Quote Is the "one Dawnshard [that] is different from all the rest"[26] the one not represented in Surgebinding? If so, is that the reason it is different, or is it not being represented an effect of the difference? If we're assuming the Dawnshards are Create/Survive-Remake-Destroy-Unite then the odd one is Unite, the only one applying only to sapien beings If we're not then I guess it'll be Hoid's one since it comes with a Topaz Quote Hoid had microkinesis[7] (which I feel is likely due to his Dawnshard-ness)[1] Your other theory suggest that every Dawnshard give microkinesis, wouldn't that mean Cohesion s related to all Dawnshard and not just Unite? 1 minute ago, KandraAllomancer said: I really like the idea, but also wonder if the KR Orders wouldn't be a better match than Surges. Stonewards for Hoid's Dawnshard, Bondsmiths for hypothesized Unity, and Lightweavers for the Change Dawnshard (as both Transformation and Illumination match it quite well) And Edgedancer for hypothesized Survive I assume? It could work 43 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I did consider that, but (very flimsy argument warning) to be perfectly honest, the Surges method is more aesthetically pleasing It's Roshar, things not being symetric is an actual argument Quote With these Surges, it ends up being every other Surge is either a Shard or Dawnshard, which forms a nice pattern of the type Rosharans are so fond of (and splitting it with Division as the midline, the locations of the Shard ones are even symmetrical!). Rosharans seems to be far more fond of vertical symetrie, but you've got both here Note that I'd be the first time (to my knowledge) we have something horizontaly symetric on Rohsar that's not both veritically and centrally symetric. We have a few thing just centrally symetric (the Voids, Taravangian's chapter picture) and a lot of verticaly symetric things, but very few horizontaly symetric things. Quote If you go by orders, you instead get Bondsmiths and Stonewards next to one another, and Lightweavers and Truthwatchers next to one another, but Stonewards and Lightweavers two apart, and Dustbringers two apart from Bondsmiths but one apart from Truthwatchers. (And swapping Edgedancers in for Truthwatchers or Skybreakers in for Dustbringers isn't any better.) And that's assuming Bondsmiths as Honor and Stonewards as Unite (which admittedly the latter's weird), if we take those both as Dawnshards and Windrunners as Honor, it ends up even worse, lol. It's totally a possibility, though, agreed. I just like it being pretty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 hour ago, mathiau said: This is a better argument for the existence of the Create and Destroy Dawnshard than I've seen even in the topics actually discussing about what the remaining Dawnshards could be Which is unfortunate, because I've been strongly against those, but now I end up arguing for them in this post (Though I think "Unite" would take the place of Create, not be in addition to it) 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Your other theory suggest that every Dawnshard give microkinesis, wouldn't that mean Cohesion s related to all Dawnshard and not just Unite? Not necessarily. Under that theory, "microkinesis" actually refers to a set of related powers that each have distinct abilities. So there'd be some relation to all, but it could manifest differently enough in each Dawnshard to have each be associated more with a different power. Valid point, though. 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Note that I'd be the first time (to my knowledge) we have something horizontaly symetric on Rohsar that's not both veritically and centrally symetric. We have a few thing just centrally symetric (the Voids, Taravangian's chapter picture) and a lot of verticaly symetric things, but very few horizontaly symetric things. Yeah, vertically symmetric would be more pure Rosharan, but Tension and Illumination being the Surges in question would be weirder, imo. The symmetry thing was a throwaway line, don't take it too seriously as an argument 1 hour ago, mathiau said: then the odd one is Unite, the only one applying only to sapien beings Not necessarily. There's Dalinar's weird reassembling of the temple, for example. If Unite is indeed a Dawnshard, I think it's likely to extend more to cover things like assembling things too. Uniting the pieces into a greater whole. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 A rather interesting WoB I just recalled: Quote Argent Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) What if the Dawnshards and Shards are these seeds? That would explain what the connection here actually is, perhaps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.