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Honor Theory #16729438 (the next Recreance has already begun)


Aliroz-The-Confused

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Before Oathbringer, we had reason to believe that the Recreance was, rather than a single event, a gradual process, a slow dying of the convictions held by the Knights Radiant.  In Oathbringer, we learn the blow from which they never recovered (the origins of humanity on Roshar).

Now, the new Radiants have learned this awful truth, and in the infancy of their existence as an organization/culture/group(s), and yet, it seems to have very little effect upon them, even after a year.  I expected that a lot of RoW would be about how the Radiants deal with this fundamental wrongness, and the uncertainty such a revelation would bring.  Many of the Honorspren seemed to think that humans could not be trusted to hold to the Ideals, that the conviction and unwavering certainty required was too much to ask of mankind.  The basic premise these Honorspren are going by is "humans are fallible, Spren are not, therefore humans cannot be trusted".

Here's the thing:  I don't think the Honorspren are wrong about humans, despite the narrative all but screaming that they are.  I think I was wrong.  I think I overestimated the effect that that revelation would have.  I think the first Recreance would have happened with or without it, and the new Recreance will happen regardless.

I think the dying of idealism, the loss of certainty, the fading of conviction, the rotting of the heart, has already begun.

 

Sigzil's conversation with Kaladin shows that not even the small, tight-knit Bridge Four can keep to a clear and unified vision of what is right.  Sigzil feels that there are some who are "imitating an oath without the commitment", and Kaladin snaps at him to not be judgemental, and tells Sigzil to distinguish "your morals" and "your beliefs" from "our code", but, crucially, he does not tell Sigzil to give up on his morals and beliefs (in fact, he tells Sigzil to present them as his own, and "make a good argument").  I think this very distinction between an individual Radiant's ideals and the Ideals of the Radiants, is the beginning of a dissonance that will grow worse until "distinct" becomes "different" becomes "irreconcilable", and a choice must be made between one's morals/beliefs and the Code.

 

See, the ancient Greeks used to talk of three thought-methods that were essential to normal cognition, which, if understood, would form the basis of persuasion (the most basic form of communication):  Logos, Ethos, and Pathos  (While modern culture views the Logical Argument and the Ethical Argument as superior to the Emotional Argument, it still acknowledges its mental debt to Pathos in words such as Empathy, Sympathy, Psychopathy, Sociopath, and Pathetic.).

Interestingly, Odium claims to be all Passions.  He pretty much claims to be Pathos, so essential, even fundamental to sentience/sapience (or, at least, as the Greeks would define it).

This would make Honor and Cultivation the equivalents of Ethos and Logos.  But humans are defined by all three (and an imbalance between them is not healthy in the long run).  Honorspren are not, they are of Honor only.  In fact, this is why the Honorspren act so unreasonable - they are of Ethos, not Logos.

Human beings are too complicated, too nuanced, too mortal and fallible, to adequately embody these ideals in large numbers for an indefinite period of time.  They are, in general, mostly incapable of the certainty required.  The Honorspren are entirely right about humanity.

Sure, the fact that Maya and her ilk chose their fates and volunteered to break their bonds knowing that they could die, seems like an acquittal of humanity to the audience, a rebuttal of "humans are fallible, Spren are not, thus, humans cannot be trusted" which proves that humans can be trusted and there is hope.

But couldn't one argue that, on the other hand, the fact that "WE CHOSE" is actually proof that the part of the premise which was wrong was the assumption that the Honorspren weren't fallible.  In fact, you could argue that mankind is so contagiously nuanced that they even influenced their Honorspren to break the oaths.

I predict that a new Recreance will take place before the Stormlight Archive is done, that Sigzil and Kaladin's conversation was foreshadowing of this.

 

(For realsies, though, I'm probably wrong, and Mr. Sanderson probably isn't going to have "Nuance is evil, only unwavering Absolutism can save the world because Mankind is too inherently flawed to achieve the Ideal" as his message.  Still, though, I totally get why that's the point that the Honorspren took from the Recreance, and I think it's kind of sad that the narrative condemns them so hard for their illogical reactions and thought-patterns when Honor before Reason is only natural for splinters of Honor).  (I look forward to being proven wrong).

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It definitely seems to be a hanging threat, especially with Kal almost breaking his oaths twice now and the reveal of Shallan’s previous spren.

I think, though, that BAM will be released and that will stop deadeyes being a result of oath-breaking. Which means that even if another recreance occurred, the results wouldn’t be nearly as devastating. At that point, would it even be considered a “recreance”?

 Also, there seems to be a large theme of spren bending and realizing that their rigid interpretation of things isn’t the only “right” way (especially in the case of the stormfather and honorspren), which could mean that instead of another recreance we see a balance reached between the rigidity of spren oaths and the changeability of humans.

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20 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Now, the new Radiants have learned this awful truth, and in the infancy of their existence as an organization/culture/group(s), and yet, it seems to have very little effect upon them, even after a year.  I expected that a lot of RoW would be about how the Radiants deal with this fundamental wrongness, and the uncertainty such a revelation would bring.  Many of the Honorspren seemed to think that humans could not be trusted to hold to the Ideals, that the conviction and unwavering certainty required was too much to ask of mankind.  The basic premise these Honorspren are going by is "humans are fallible, Spren are not, therefore humans cannot be trusted".

The new Radiants didn't hear Honour raving about the Dawnshards. Nor the dark secret that actually caused the Recreance

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Here's the thing:  I don't think the Honorspren are wrong about humans, despite the narrative all but screaming that they are.  I think I was wrong.  I think I overestimated the effect that that revelation would have.  I think the first Recreance would have happened with or without it, and the new Recreance will happen regardless.

Of course they're not wrong about humans, they're wrong about sprens

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I think the dying of idealism, the loss of certainty, the fading of conviction, the rotting of the heart, has already begun.

People can fight for an ideal without being idealist.

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Sigzil's conversation with Kaladin shows that not even the small, tight-knit Bridge Four can keep to a clear and unified vision of what is right.  Sigzil feels that there are some who are "imitating an oath without the commitment", and Kaladin snaps at him to not be judgemental, and tells Sigzil to distinguish "your morals" and "your beliefs" from "our code", but, crucially, he does not tell Sigzil to give up on his morals and beliefs (in fact, he tells Sigzil to present them as his own, and "make a good argument").  I think this very distinction between an individual Radiant's ideals and the Ideals of the Radiants, is the beginning of a dissonance that will grow worse until "distinct" becomes "different" becomes "irreconcilable", and a choice must be made between one's morals/beliefs and the Code.

I don't see your point

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See, the ancient Greeks used to talk of three thought-methods that were essential to normal cognition, which, if understood, would form the basis of persuasion (the most basic form of communication):  Logos, Ethos, and Pathos  (While modern culture views the Logical Argument and the Ethical Argument as superior to the Emotional Argument, it still acknowledges its mental debt to Pathos in words such as Empathy, Sympathy, Psychopathy, Sociopath, and Pathetic.).

Do we have any reason to think it applies to SA in any way?

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Interestingly, Odium claims to be all Passions.  He pretty much claims to be Pathos, so essential, even fundamental to sentience/sapience (or, at least, as the Greeks would define it).

Odium is not Pathos. You'd have to add Devotion and probably Mercy to him to fully obtain Pathos

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This would make Honor and Cultivation the equivalents of Ethos and Logos.

Why would they be? Honour+Cultivation+Odium was never supposed to encompass the totality of human nature

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Human beings are too complicated, too nuanced, too mortal and fallible, to adequately embody these ideals in large numbers for an indefinite period of time.  They are, in general, mostly incapable of the certainty required.  The Honorspren are entirely right about humanity.

And?

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Sure, the fact that Maya and her ilk chose their fates and volunteered to break their bonds knowing that they could die, seems like an acquittal of humanity to the audience, a rebuttal of "humans are fallible, Spren are not, thus, humans cannot be trusted" which proves that humans can be trusted and there is hope.

But couldn't one argue that, on the other hand, the fact that "WE CHOSE" is actually proof that the part of the premise which was wrong was the assumption that the Honorspren weren't fallible.  In fact, you could argue that mankind is so contagiously nuanced that they even influenced their Honorspren to break the oaths.

Current day Honoursprens are still fallible

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I predict that a new Recreance will take place before the Stormlight Archive is done, that Sigzil and Kaladin's conversation was foreshadowing of this.

Currently a new Recreance cannot happen, Radiants would unbound their sprens without killing them

Edited by mathiau
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6 hours ago, mathiau said:

The new Radiants did hear Honour raving about the Dawnshards. Nor the dark secret that actually caused the Recreance

I'm having trouble parsing this.  Did you mean to put "didn't" in the first sentence?  

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

People can fight for an ideal without being idealist.

I hadn't considered that, but given how strict the Shards on Roshar are, I wouldn't be surprised if both beliefs and deeds matter enough to disqualify.

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't see your point

My point is that I don't think that the Radiants can both keep their own individual beliefs AND embody the Ideals without a conflict between the two arising.  At least, not in the long term.

4 hours ago, mathiau said:

Do we have any reason to think it applies to SA in any way?

I think it might apply in Taravangian's boon, in which what he sees as his "Logos" and "Pathos" are inversely proportional to one another, especially considering that this is a boon by Cultivation, and that it is so strongly tied to him becoming Odium, but that's tenuous at best.

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Odium is not Pathos. You'd have to add Devotion and probably Mercy to him to fully obtain Pathos

That's a good point.  I suppose Odium would be to Pathos as Ruin is to Harmony.  Ruin isn't Harmony, but Harmony is Ruin and Preservation; so Odium wouldn't be Pathos, but Pathos would be Odium, Devotion, and perhaps Mercy (or even Whimsy).

For that matter, perhaps Ethos would be Honor and Valor (or even more)?  Perhaps Logos would be Cultivation and Invention (or more)?

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Why would they be? Honour+Cultivation+Odium was never supposed to encompass the totality of human nature

To be fair, neither was Ethos + Logos + Pathos, but you're right that I have no sound reasoning for such a claim other than both being groups having a size of three.

6 hours ago, mathiau said:

Currently a new Recreance cannot happen, Radiants would unbound their sprens without killing them

I didn't know that.  When was this revealed/shown/said?  What changed to make it be this way?

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1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I'm having trouble parsing this. Did you mean to put "didn't" in the first sentence?  

I did mean to put "didn't"

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I hadn't considered that, but given how strict the Shards on Roshar are, I wouldn't be surprised if both beliefs and deeds matter enough to disqualify.

It's possible we're not using the word "idealism" the same way. In Dawnshard Rysn and Nikli had a discussion about about imperfect solutions for an imperfect world, in my mind trying to forbid hazing rituals is idealism but trying to keep them manageable is not.

I think Honour would be okay with that level of non-idealism

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My point is that I don't think that the Radiants can both keep their own individual beliefs AND embody the Ideals without a conflict between the two arising.  At least, not in the long term.

I think they will manage, they're will be issues of course, but not enough to destroy the orders

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I think it might apply in Taravangian's boon, in which what he sees as his "Logos" and "Pathos" are inversely proportional to one another, especially considering that this is a boon by Cultivation, and that it is so strongly tied to him becoming Odium, but that's tenuous at best.

That's a good point.  I suppose Odium would be to Pathos as Ruin is to Harmony.  Ruin isn't Harmony, but Harmony is Ruin and Preservation; so Odium wouldn't be Pathos, but Pathos would be Odium, Devotion, and perhaps Mercy (or even Whimsy).

For that matter, perhaps Ethos would be Honor and Valor (or even more)?  Perhaps Logos would be Cultivation and Invention (or more)?

To be fair, neither was Ethos + Logos + Pathos, but you're right that I have no sound reasoning for such a claim other than both being groups having a size of three.

I don't have enough knowledge of ancient Grec philosophy to answer to anything there

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I didn't know that.  When was this revealed/shown/said?  What changed to make it be this way?

The Honoursprens of Oathbringer said there a way to safely separate Syl from Kal since he was not Oath 5

Also

Quote

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think they ment to put a 't' instead of an r.

I did not. They heard the Stormfather say Honour had raved about the Dawnshards which is something that will have a far lesser psychological effect

(I'm a he)

Edited by mathiau
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1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wait, so does that mean that the current Radiants don't know that Humanity isn't native to Roshar, and that the planet was stolen from its true natives?  I could have sworn there was a conversation about that somewhere...

They do. It's not the secret that caused the Recreance, we don't know what that secret is

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Thanks, I guess, I only said they because it felt more natural. Might be a regional inflection of speech.

Ah, I had assumed it was because you didn't know

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Well, if knowing that you're usurpers on the place you consider your native planet DOESN'T wreck all your idealism and confidence in the rightness of your cause, I'm not sure what will.

 

I mean, what secret could possibly be worse?  "The Shin are right, and you all are eternally condemned in the afterlife for stepping on stone"?

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5 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, if knowing that you're usurpers on the place you consider your native planet DOESN'T wreck all your idealism and confidence in the rightness of your cause, I'm not sure what will.

 

I mean, what secret could possibly be worse?  "The Shin are right, and you all are eternally condemned in the afterlife for stepping on stone"?

It does seem, though, that RoW is pointing out that the humans are now as much a part of Roshar as the Singers, which I think takes the bite away from that truth. See especially Navani’s chapters. 
 

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“We can hear them because we are the children of Roshar,” Raboniel said. “You are not.”
“I’ve lived here all my life,” Navani said. “I’m as much a child of this planet as you are.”

So while I get what you’re saying, it seems like the text is pointing in a different direction that will lead to (some) Singers and Humans uniting against Odium, rather than emphasizing the humans’ status as ancient invaders.

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9 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, if knowing that you're usurpers on the place you consider your native planet DOESN'T wreck all your idealism and confidence in the rightness of your cause, I'm not sure what will.

 

I mean, what secret could possibly be worse?  "The Shin are right, and you all are eternally condemned in the afterlife for stepping on stone"?

I mean, it was seven thousand years ago, it's not exactly like they can do a lot about it. More recent issues like the whole "enslaving an entire sapient species for two thousand years" bit that they directly contributed to sound more immediately disturbing, at least to me.

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, it was seven thousand years ago, it's not exactly like they can do a lot about it. More recent issues like the whole "enslaving an entire sapient species for two thousand years" bit that they directly contributed to sound more immediately disturbing, at least to me.

Not like they could have changed anything. The everstorm and BAM are about all that could fix it.

10 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, if knowing that you're usurpers on the place you consider your native planet DOESN'T wreck all your idealism and confidence in the rightness of your cause, I'm not sure what will.

 

I mean, what secret could possibly be worse?  "The Shin are right, and you all are eternally condemned in the afterlife for stepping on stone"?

Wherever you live I guarantee you someone else was there first.

Does that bother you?

Make it harder to live life, or hold to your standard?

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1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, they didn't have to use them as slaves, even if not capable of repairing their minds.

This is going to come off wrong, but I just going to say this.

What else are you going to do with them?

Leave them out in the woods to starve?

Feed and take care of them without them doing anything for you making them a massive drain on your countries resources.

Or give them a job and have them work like everyone else.

Now the way they were treated was bad, I'm going to say that, but what could you have realistically done better?

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16 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, they didn't have to use them as slaves, even if not capable of repairing their minds.

It's not that worse than a lot of other thing people did and don't seem to regrets that much, like having human slaves

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3 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is going to come off wrong, but I just going to say this.

What else are you going to do with them?

Leave them out in the woods to starve?

Feed and take care of them without them doing anything for you making them a massive drain on your countries resources.

Or give them a job and have them work like everyone else.

Now the way they were treated was bad, I'm going to say that, but what could you have realistically done better?

We do know that slaveform singers can do some things on their own initiative, such as caring for their young and their dead, so it's not certain that they would starve if left alone. And even if that isn't true, it wouldn't be impossible to make self-sustaining farms for them, thus eliminating any resource drain.

If you're going to make them work like everyone else, then pay them like everyone else. 

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4 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is going to come off wrong, but I just going to say this.

What else are you going to do with them?

Leave them out in the woods to starve?

Feed and take care of them without them doing anything for you making them a massive drain on your countries resources.

Or give them a job and have them work like everyone else.

Now the way they were treated was bad, I'm going to say that, but what could you have realistically done better?

Maybe it started as equal work equal pay

But later society forgot and then they saw a bunch of ppl doing nothing and cant think for themselves 

What else would you do but enslave them?

It may be horrible but that is a society ‘never throw out a useful tool’

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17 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

We do know that slaveform singers can do some things on their own initiative, such as caring for their young and their dead, so it's not certain that they would starve if left alone. And even if that isn't true, it wouldn't be impossible to make self-sustaining farms for them, thus eliminating any resource drain.

I think it was WoK but maybe WoR they said Parshmen would not move, even to eat if left on their own.

17 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

If you're going to make them work like everyone else, then pay them like everyone else. 

What would they do with money?

It's not like they could spend it, they got food if you count that as pay.

I'm thinking about this now and I really have to say there are not a lot of realistically viable options.

9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Maybe it started as equal work equal pay

But later society forgot and then they saw a bunch of ppl doing nothing and cant think for themselves 

What else would you do but enslave them?

It may be horrible but that is a society ‘never throw out a useful tool’

Might actually be what happened.

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Just now, Frustration said:

I think it was WoK but maybe WoR they said Parshmen would not move, even to eat if left on their own.

What would they do with money?

It's not like they could spend it, they got food if you count that as pay.

I'm thinking about this now and I really have to say there are not a lot of realistically viable options.

Might actually be what happened.

Yes, we also know that they care for the dead on their own initiative (Way of Kings), and that they do have parental and familial instincts(Oathbringer).

It doesn't matter if they can't do anything with the pay, you pay them anyways and deduct food expenses as necessary. Not paying them makes it slavery, while paying puts it into a grayer area (It would still be bad though, as slaveform singers are unable to give any sort of informed consent).

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Just now, SturmOgre said:

Yes, we also know that they care for the dead on their own initiative (Way of Kings), and that they do have parental and familial instincts(Oathbringer).

And?

Just now, SturmOgre said:

It doesn't matter if they can't do anything with the pay, you pay them anyways and deduct food expenses as necessary. Not paying them makes it slavery, while paying puts it into a grayer area (It would still be bad though, as slaveform singers are unable to give any sort of informed consent).

It would be slavery, yes, yes it would.

you know like the human slaves, except you don't care as much about human slaves.

And paying them, without them being able to buy anything?

for 2,000 years?

That won't destroy roshars economy.

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And?

We know that they can do things on their own. So it's not certain that they would do absolutely nothing when left alone.  As far as we know, there have been no Rosharan scientific studies done on this front, so we can say nothing for certain. For instance, perhaps after a long enough period without orders, they revert to basic animal instincts and start foraging for food.

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you know like the human slaves, except you don't care as much about human slaves.

This is just a non sequitur. You asked for better ways to treat slaveform singers, not how to treat human slaves.

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And paying them, without them being able to buy anything?

for 2,000 years?

That won't destroy roshars economy

As I said, if this arrangement is selected, the cost of food and board would be deducted from their pay. Do you have any evidence that only paying for basic necessities will cause the economy to collapse?

Besides, another option that I pointed out was to put them into self-sustaining farming communities. You don't have to pay or feed them, and depending on how tyrannical you want to be, you can set up population controls so that you won't have to expand the farms. And if there is any surplus, you can take it and give them money for it.

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6 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

We know that they can do things on their own. So it's not certain that they would do absolutely nothing when left alone.  As far as we know, there have been no Rosharan scientific studies done on this front, so we can say nothing for certain. For instance, perhaps after a long enough period without orders, they revert to basic animal instincts and start foraging for food.

I was refrencing a scientific study, if left alone they starve.

7 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

This is just a non sequitur. You asked for better ways to treat slaveform singers, not how to treat human slaves.

I said a realistic way, they aren't going to shy away from slavery to others when they are willing to do it to themselves.

8 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

As I said, if this arrangement is selected, the cost of food and board would be deducted from their pay. Do you have any evidence that only paying for basic necessities will cause the economy to collapse?

let's assume that you pay them the same as Vorin slaves 1 diamond chip a day, with a static population of say 50,000

50,000*500 days*2,000 years

and you end up with a ludicrus sum of FIFTY MILLION emerald Broams.

That is with a small population, with slave wages

the true numbers would be staggering, mind numingly large.

19 minutes ago, SturmOgre said:

Besides, another option that I pointed out was to put them into self-sustaining farming communities. You don't have to pay or feed them, and depending on how tyrannical you want to be, you can set up population controls so that you won't have to expand the farms. And if there is any surplus, you can take it and give them money for it.

And then you have communities of defensless people you have to protect so Conquerers don't acquire them and use them to their advantage in conquring you.

 

These are good ideas, but the more I look at this the more I come to the conclusion that there wasn't a perfect answer,

Maybe a Bondsmith could have fixed it, but there weren't any at the time.

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