Quick Ben

Herdaz

16 posts in this topic

So during the time skip, the singers invade Herdaz, for 1 year against all odds the herdazians repel the attacks even when badly outmumbered and outgunned given the fused are there in numbers, and Herdaz has no radiant support.

In world we are told, the radiants don't help because looks hopeless so "no point". And Herdaz is strategically insignificant, 

Firstly, isn't this a direct contradiction of what the radiants are meant to do ? 

Secondly, as radiants see that Herdaz is holding out time and time again against all odds, shouldnt radinats of been sent ? Because they could of turned the tide ?

Thirdly, how did the Herdazians who fought against all odds, with no support, for a year, not become radiant themselves ? 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Perception, I guess, they're not really breaking their Ideals. The only ones whose Ideals the situation might contradict are the Windrunners and well, they are rule-following & hierarchical, they were under direct orders from the Kholins so... We also see their commander, Kaladin's viewpoint, who was rather overbearing and didn't want to risk his fellow Windrunners on dangerous missions if he could avoid it (perfectly understandable) 

2) Herdaz isn't really strategically important and well, it wasn't really a piece of land that anyone in power had any significant emotional attachment to. Lopen and his family had already gotten out, I'm assuming the same goes for Palona as we don't really hear from her

3) Because the spren weren't looking there, I'm assuming. All the Honorspren that were willing to Bond went with Kaladin and his Bridgemen. Most of the Reachers that were willing to Bond were apparently looking at Venli and the Listeners. Highspren were paying attention to Nale and his Skybreakers. The Inkspren and Ashspren weren't looking for a Bond. Cryptics, Mistspren, Cultivationspren aren't generally attracted by war-related virtues. The Peakspren are divided on the subject of Bonding, but some Stonewards might've arisen from the Herdazian conflict, I think, but we don't really hear about anything like that.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/02/2021 at 10:49 AM, Quick Ben said:

Firstly, isn't this a direct contradiction of what the radiants are meant to do ?

"I accept that there will be those I cannot protect"

No it's not

On 16/02/2021 at 10:49 AM, Quick Ben said:

Secondly, as radiants see that Herdaz is holding out time and time again against all odds, shouldnt radinats of been sent ? Because they could of turned the tide ?

They didn't have any to spare. Also I'm not sure but did they control the north of Jah Keved at that moment? If they did not then they helping was physically impossible

On 16/02/2021 at 1:47 PM, Honorless said:

3) Because the spren weren't looking there, I'm assuming. All the Honorspren that were willing to Bond went with Kaladin and his Bridgemen. Most of the Reachers that were willing to Bond were apparently looking at Venli and the Listeners. Highspren were paying attention to Nale and his Skybreakers. The Inkspren and Ashspren weren't looking for a Bond. Cryptics, Mistspren, Cultivationspren aren't generally attracted by war-related virtues. The Peakspren are divided on the subject of Bonding, but some Stonewards might've arisen from the Herdazian conflict, I think, but we don't really hear about anything like that.

Ashprens seems very divided on whether or not to bound Radiants, some hate humanity and won't, some hate Radiants and will help Taravangian destroy them and the one Ral-na bounded doesn't to be of either side

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/16/2021 at 0:47 PM, Honorless said:

1) Perception, I guess, they're not really breaking their Ideals. The only ones whose Ideals the situation might contradict are the Windrunners and well, they are rule-following & hierarchical, they were under direct orders from the Kholins so... We also see their commander, Kaladin's viewpoint, who was rather overbearing and didn't want to risk his fellow Windrunners on dangerous missions if he could avoid it (perfectly understandable) 

 

I see where your coming from but the radiants are supposed to be for all Roshar not just the Kholins, and who they deem worthy, for radiant support 

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

"I accept that there will be those I cannot protect"

No it's not

 

You only quote one windrunner ideal as proof it's not?.....ok

There is also the other windrunner Ideals, as well as the edgedancers.

  • The Second Ideal. I will remember those who have been forgotten.
  • The Third Ideal. I will listen to those who have been ignored.

Herdaz is definitely both, forgotten and ignored.

On 2/16/2021 at 0:47 PM, Honorless said:

 

2) Herdaz isn't really strategically important and well, it wasn't really a piece of land that anyone in power had any significant emotional attachment to. Lopen and his family had already gotten out, I'm assuming the same goes for Palona as we don't really hear from her

 

Again fair point but boils down to "no one in power was attached it there.

Doesn't speak well for those in power, does it? When meant to be for all Roshar but actually it's for who Dalinar feels like.

On 2/16/2021 at 0:47 PM, Honorless said:

 

3) Because the spren weren't looking there, I'm assuming. All the Honorspren that were willing to Bond went with Kaladin and his Bridgemen. Most of the Reachers that were willing to Bond were apparently looking at Venli and the Listeners. Highspren were paying attention to Nale and his Skybreakers. The Inkspren and Ashspren weren't looking for a Bond. Cryptics, Mistspren, Cultivationspren aren't generally attracted by war-related virtues. The Peakspren are divided on the subject of Bonding, but some Stonewards might've arisen from the Herdazian conflict, I think, but we don't really hear about anything like that.

Would the spren in shadesmear not be drawn to looking there ? I would of assumed they would be, given the number of fused etc there and the assumed heroics the herdazians were pulling off.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Quick Ben said:

You only quote one windrunner ideal as proof it's not?.....ok

There is also the other windrunner Ideals, as well as the edgedancers.

  • The Second Ideal. I will remember those who have been forgotten.
  • The Third Ideal. I will listen to those who have been ignored.

Herdaz is definitely both, forgotten and ignored.

My idea was that if the Windrunners, who's order's purpose is to protect people, have an oath saying you can't save everyone then not helping everyone is not against the Radiants' Oaths. Both Windrunners and Edgedancers would want to help Herdraz but that doesn't mean they would

Quote

Would the spren in shadesmear not be drawn to looking there ? I would of assumed they would be, given the number of fused etc there and the assumed heroics the herdazians were pulling off.

Sapient sprens tend to avoid the Cognitive Realm around places attacked by Fused because it's generally also controlled by Odium's forces, sometimes there's even an Unmade or two around

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/17/2021 at 8:31 PM, mathiau said:

My idea was that if the Windrunners, who's order's purpose is to protect people, have an oath saying you can't save everyone then not helping everyone is not against the Radiants' Oaths. Both Windrunners and Edgedancers would want to help Herdraz but that doesn't mean they would

Issue with this is a simple one.....no windrunner had gotten that far in their oaths yet

On 2/17/2021 at 8:31 PM, mathiau said:

Sapient sprens tend to avoid the Cognitive Realm around places attacked by Fused because it's generally also controlled by Odium's forces, sometimes there's even an Unmade or two around

While they avoid the areas, they know where the action is by that very avoidance, so would imagine, radiant spren would be drawn there

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Issue with this is a simple one.....no windrunner had gotten that far in their oaths yet

That is true indeed. I don't think it's a problem but I can see why you think it is

Quote

While they avoid the areas, they know where the action is by that very avoidance, so would imagine, radiant spren would be drawn there

The sapient sprens (of which the radiant sprens are) avoid the Cognitive Realm around where the War is because before conquering somewhere's in the physical realm Odium conquer it's equivalent in Shadesmare, which is easier since it's far less crowded. Really, even if they wanted they could not go close enough to create Radiants

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mathiau said:

That is true indeed. I don't think it's a problem but I can see why you think it is

The sapient sprens (of which the radiant sprens are) avoid the Cognitive Realm around where the War is because before conquering somewhere's in the physical realm Odium conquer it's equivalent in Shadesmare, which is easier since it's far less crowded. Really, even if they wanted they could not go close enough to create Radiants

Again i see what your saying.

But my point is a simple one, Odiums forces have returned, fused are returned, "Desolation" has "started" yet there is a year long war in one country, where assumingly Herdazians are achieving heroic feats, yet there ignored by spren ?

Where spren are instead waiting around Uirithiu ? Or in Azir ? Where no war is happening

I don't see how you, or anyone can think that makes sense.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Quick Ben said:

Again i see what your saying.

I don't see how you, or anyone can think that makes sense. 

Well apparently you do not see what I mean because I've just explain why I thought it'd makes sense: they could not have got close enough to Herdaz to make Radiants

Also as @Honorless said most sprens don’t care about combat processes, the Radiants are Honour’s knights, not Valour’s knights

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

Again i see what your saying.

But my point is a simple one, Odiums forces have returned, fused are returned, "Desolation" has "started" yet there is a year long war in one country, where assumingly Herdazians are achieving heroic feats, yet there ignored by spren ?

Where spren are instead waiting around Uirithiu ? Or in Azir ? Where no war is happening

I don't see how you, or anyone can think that makes sense.

You definitely have a good question... It's not just that the spren are "clustering" around Urithiru, which is likely true about the intial set of honorspren who would have been most inspired to follow Syl as a "breakaway contingent", but not all; Lift, the Stump, Ym, Malata in Kharbranth, the Reshi King, and others from many other lands have turned up with Radiants. Shallan formed her bond before just about anybody else, all the way out in Jah Keved. So, why not Herdaz?

Or at least not in Herdaz proper, in the midst of their struggles? We do have Herdazian Radiants, after all: Lopen and Huio, at a minimum.

Well, I'll turn this question around: how do we know they haven't had people form Nahel bonds in Herdaz? The country is kind of cut off now from the rest of the world, after (finally) being conquered by Team Odium. The further flung Radiants we know of in RoW (like some of the ones I listed) are ones that have "reported for duty" to Dalinar in Urithiru in some way, because the story is largely told from Team Dalinar's POV. By definition, any other Radiants are unknown to us as readers of the narrative - the exception being Venli, of course, who is a POV character, and oh yeah, was not only unknown to Dalinar but actively hiding her bond from everybody else until recently.

It's not like we've had POVs or in-world updates about the struggle against Odium in Herdaz, only a summary that Dalinar has had periodic field reports for over a year amounting to "Herdaz: still not fallen. OMG!" For all we know, one of the reasons they have held out so long is not just the tactical brilliance of The Mink but Surgebinders, Radiants or proto-Radiants who are not reporting to Dalinar.

Put another way: the only Radiants we've seen in SA are either POV characters, or ones that a POV character has encountered. Other than Venli, that means someone Dalinar has met. As we can see from how The Mink acts around him, there's kind of a history there (to put it mildly) between them and the Alethi as exemplified by Dalinar's past that makes the Herdazians... Hesitant to throw in with him.

So if there have been Radiants emerging in Herdaz, it could well be that their first loyalty has been to Herdaz' immediate struggle against Team Odium, and not (yet) to show themselves to the larger "Team Roshar" that Dalinar is trying to form (because of all that murdering he's done to them) so as to coordinate their efforts. And why should they, when Team Dalinar has focused attention elsewhere and ignored Herdaz in return?

Edited by robardin
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Well apparently you do not see what I mean because I've just explain why I thought it'd makes sense: they could not have got close enough to Herdaz to make Radiants

Also as @Honorless said most sprens don’t care about combat processes, the Radiants are Honour’s knights, not Valour’s knights

 

I see what you mean clearly but don't think its a sufficient reason.

14 minutes ago, robardin said:

You definitely have a good question... It's not just that the spren are "clustering" around Urithiru, which is likely true about the intial set of honorspren who would have been most inspired to follow Syl as a "breakaway contingent", but not all; Lift, the Stump, Ym, Malata in Kharbranth, the Reshi King, and others from many other lands have turned up with Radiants. Shallan formed her bond before just about anybody else, all the way out in Jah Keved. So, why not Herdaz?

Or at least not in Herdaz proper, in the midst of their struggles? We do have Herdazian Radiants, after all: Lopen and Huio, at a minimum.

Well, I'll turn this question around: how do we know they haven't had people form Nahel bonds in Herdaz? The country is kind of cut off now from the rest of the world, after (finally) being conquered by Team Odium. The further flung Radiants we know of in RoW (like some of the ones I listed) are ones that have "reported for duty" to Dalinar in Urithiru in some way, because the story is largely told from Team Dalinar's POV. By definition, any other Radiants are unknown to us as readers of the narrative - the exception being Venli, of course, who is a POV character, and oh yeah, was not only unknown to Dalinar but actively hiding her bond from everybody else until recently.

It's not like we've had POVs or in-world updates about the struggle against Odium in Herdaz, only a summary that Dalinar has had periodic field reports for over a year amounting to "Herdaz: still not fallen. OMG!" For all we know, one of the reasons they have held out so long is not just the tactical brilliance of The Mink but Surgebinders, Radiants or proto-Radiants who are not reporting to Dalinar.

What you said in first half of this is why i think saying "spren didnt look there" is insufficient explanation in a nutshell

The reason i assume they don't have radiants, is because what kaldain says about there reaction to seeing him - something along the lines of "its a shame they hadn't seen radiant powers before"

The Mink seems like the perfect candidate to become a radiant, of a number of orders.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Quick Ben said:

I see what you mean clearly but don't think its a sufficient reason.

What you said in first half of this is why i think saying "spren didnt look there" is insufficient explanation in a nutshell

The reason i assume they don't have radiants, is because what kaldain says about there reaction to seeing him - something along the lines of "its a shame they hadn't seen radiant powers before"

The Mink seems like the perfect candidate to become a radiant, of a number of orders.

Ah, that is a good point, too... It's in Ch. 2 of RoW, when Kaladin first encounters the Mink:

Quote

Inside the shed, several very touchy Herdazians pulled daggers on him as he opened the door. In response, he sucked in a little Stormlight, causing wisps of luminescent smoke to rise from his exposed skin.

“By the Three Gods,” whispered one of them, a tall fellow with a ponytail. “It’s true. You’ve returned.”

The reaction disturbed Kaladin. This man, as a freedom fighter in Herdaz, should have seen Radiants before now. In a perfect world, Dalinar’s coalition armies would have been supporting the Herdazian freedom effort for months now.

Only, everyone had given up on Herdaz. The little country had seemed close to collapse, and Dalinar’s armies had been licking their wounds from the Battle of Thaylen Field. Then reports had trickled in of a resistance in Herdaz fighting back. Each report sounded like the Herdazians were nearly finished, and so resources were allocated to more winnable fronts. But each time, Herdaz stood strong, relentlessly harrying the enemy. Odium’s armies lost tens of thousands fighting in that small, strategically unimportant country.

Though Herdaz had eventually fallen, the blood toll exacted on the enemy had been remarkably high.

So it's true that this man, at least, had not seen a Radiant in action (glowing from Stormlight), despite being in what amounted to the personal guard of their nation's top general. (I say "amounted to" because "he sneaks away... He likes to see if he can do it without us noticing.")

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ah, that is a good point, too... It's in Ch. 2 of RoW, when Kaladin first encounters the Mink:

So it's true that this man, at least, had not seen a Radiant in action (glowing from Stormlight), despite being in what amounted to the personal guard of their nation's top general. (I say "amounted to" because "he sneaks away... He likes to see if he can do it without us noticing.")

Another reason is, when Dalinar and Shallan are making the map, to show the mink troop layouts, when the map is forming from stormlight, he takes off and is nearly out the door. 

So if the mink hasnt come across radiants, his "honourguard" haven't, i think it stands to reason no radiants were formed from herdazians, unless its subterfuge on their part that is.

There is alot of radiant spren who you would think would look at what the herdazians were doing and attempt bonds.  Honourspren, peakspren, being the most obvious,  cryptics presumably because herdazians would of needed to use a lot of subterfuge, cultivationspren, inkspren maybe (yes i know they don't agree with ivory) reachers, 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/16/2021 at 4:49 AM, Quick Ben said:

Firstly, isn't this a direct contradiction of what the radiants are meant to do ? 

Not really.  In an idea world they could but triage is necessary.  You can't even just do good out of a desire.  Planning your actions is also important.

On 2/16/2021 at 4:49 AM, Quick Ben said:

Secondly, as radiants see that Herdaz is holding out time and time again against all odds, shouldnt radinats of been sent ? Because they could of turned the tide ?

They have limited radiants and have to use them strategically.  In hindsight maybe but they made a judgement call.

On 2/16/2021 at 4:49 AM, Quick Ben said:

Thirdly, how did the Herdazians who fought against all odds, with no support, for a year, not become radiant themselves ? 

Limited numbers of spren are bonding anyway and some of them probably did become radiant.  However without training or knowledge by more experienced members they would have had limited effectiveness.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, if humans have thought that Herdaz couldn't be saved, it could be assumed that spren, also thought that it couldn't be saved.

 

But..do why know why it is strategically important for Odium to get Herdaz while not for coalition? It seems odd, that they would give something so easily and Odium to want it so much even having lost a great number of people to get it? It doesn't make sense to me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, apepi said:

I mean, if humans have thought that Herdaz couldn't be saved, it could be assumed that spren, also thought that it couldn't be saved.

 

But..do why know why it is strategically important for Odium to get Herdaz while not for coalition? It seems odd, that they would give something so easily and Odium to want it so much even having lost a great number of people to get it? It doesn't make sense to me.

See the thing about Odium is he really HATES to lose.

Herdaz is bordered by Alethkar and Jah Keved, both of which are under his dominion. Having Herdaz be independent... Especially after defying him with unexpected resilience after he'd assumed he could just roll over it... Is not something he would tolerate.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.