Forms of mind

kaladin dies in book 5....

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I was listening to the story about fleet in words of radiance and fleet dies after running past the shin mountains. Fleet then gets swept up into the storm. My theory is that kaladin dies and becomes something else like a cognitive shadow or something. Thies theory is also in the thread about kaladin taking up the shard honor. We know at the end of book 4 kaladin is being sent to shinovar to try to heal the heralds and restart the oathpact. He will die in shinovar.

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Do you have any other evidence supporting this theory? Because that seems a bit of a stretch to me. Not saying it's not possible, but it seems lacking. If this is true, should we also assume Shallan perfectly follows the story of The Girl Who Looked Up?

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It seems like fleet was already a story in existence before hoid sayed it ( does he have future site?)

Its probaly something that has already happened

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22 minutes ago, Elerosse said:

If this is true, should we also assume Shallan perfectly follows the story of The Girl Who Looked Up?

I think that possibility would be fun to explore. Looked at from the perspective of Shallan’s internal state, would that make Veil the wall, and the knowledge of the truth (okay, certain protected truths) God’s Light? In which case, Shallan would have already fulfilled the story.

There are other, less internal, ways this could fit Shallan, as well. I suppose it would almost be necessary for Shallan to breach the walls keeping her on Roshar and go out into the wider universe, bringing back a dangerous knowledge/power, for the story to fit her the way the OP’s suggesting Fleet’s story might fit Kaladin.

Given her desire to travel, that is a possibility. Likewise, the OP’s theory isn’t implausible. An implausible theory would be that all those near-death experiences and references to how Kaladin looked like death hint that Kaladin’s already something like a Cognitive Shadow that’s being carried along by the storm.

I don’t think there’s really evidence for the OP’s speculation. But just like Shallan is potentially going over the wall by leaving the confines of her imprisoning world, Kaladin is supposed to be going to Shinovar. That’s a small point to pin that level of similarity between him and Fleet on, though. And the way Kaladin is tied to wind and keeps thinking about trying to stop a storm like Fleet did are thin details that don’t really support the contention of death and Cognitive Shadowhood mirroring Fleet’s.

But where would the story of Fleet suggest Kaladin’s going? Can we track its rises and falls in his life since then? Do we take clues from Wit’s other stories to him? Or does it seem more sensible to assume each story has limited applications for only the moments in which they were given?

It’s entirely possible these stories don’t have larger/layered meanings. But then, this is Wit.

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Pretty sure if the fleet story is forshadowinng anything it would be Kaladin ascending to the shard of Honour. 

I know most commonly believed on this site is Dalinar ascends to the shard honour, but kaladin comes closer to the embodiment of honour then Dalinar ever would, 

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One of the things I like about stormlight archive is that there is so much foreshadowing. I just think that listening to the stories within stories are a good way to mask and foreshadow what will happen. I wanted to hear other peoples thoughts. Thank you all.

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I always wondered if Fleet was about Tanavast, and being swept up into the storm at the end was his cognitive remnants merging with the Stormfather when he died.

It really depends if this story is foreshadowing a future event or describing something from the past metaphorically. 

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50 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

It really depends if this story is foreshadowing a future event or describing something from the past metaphorically. 

I genuinely assumed it was doing all of the above, and probably two other things at the same time.

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Both Dalinar and Kaladin are set up to die (or Ascend, which isn't all that different) in Book 5. Their major character arcs are done, preparing the way for a good, narratively satisfying death. Both are being sent to situations that further suggest that they will die: Dalinar is challenging a god, and Kaladin is being sent to heal someone just short of being a god.

I really don't think predicting either death is much of a stretch.

Both of them have also been built up toward something huge over the 4 books. The death (I doubt both of them will die) will have to be in service of something worthy of that build up.

 

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I don't have any 'evidence' supporting this theory but I don't think Kaladin is going to die, not for a long time at least.

 

The Cosmere is about to enter into a period of pure chaos because the powers that operate behind the scenes wish to exercise their influence and stretch it as far as possible. The Ghostbloods are an organisation that spans planets and they are searching for a way to transport Stormlight off-world. This will begin a struggle for power between Cosmere aware entities and organisations who don't care much for anything except their goals, seeking to achieve them at all costs. This is likely where the situation is headed.

 

Kaladin staying alive is necessary specifically because he will not stand for the 'ends justifying the means' and is the character most, as of right now, able to provide an alternative to those who seek the easier paths. Kaladin is, at least in my opinion, just as enigmatic as Kelsier and is, also my opinion, a far greater choice to have surviving through the ages specifically because he understands and can empathise with the abused without the necessity of a reward or a boon.

 

The Cosmere NEEDS kindness, compassion, and an unyielding person like Kaladin to step forward and journey the worlds, because otherwise things will not end well. Kaladin is someone who can make an ACTUAL difference to the Cosmere and I suspect his potential, at the end of Book 5 at least, will only have just begun to be revealed in the greater scheme of the Cosmere.

 

In short, Kaladin for Worldhopper needs to happen or bad times for everyone!

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38 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

In short, Kaladin for Worldhopper needs to happen or bad times for everyone!

I thought that Kaladin is a character bound to Stormlight Archive whose story wouldn't go past it but now I'm convinced that Cosmere needs more people like Kaladin and worldhopping Kal would be a good idea. Now that I think of it many of the Cosmere-aware folks traveling around don't seem all that good.

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I think the idea of Fleet being a story that means Kaladin is destined to die is not a bad idea.  But I don't think it means he will literally die once he reaches the Shin mountains.

The whole idea of the story was to tell Kaladin that even though death is inevitable it's still meaningful to do your best.  Even if you're sure to fail.  So, if that were to be his overall character arc, then it would make sense.  Kaladin tries his best, but fails in that final fight against the ultimate bad guy and buys enough time and inspires his friends and allies to win the final battle, or to be able to save themselves.

Wouldn't that be interesting if the 5th Ideal of the Windrunners was about knowing when it's right to sacrifice yourself to protect others and that you can only achieve it shortly before your own death?  I'm not sure if that would really happen or not.  But I think it would fit Sanderson's style.

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I don't think Kaladin dying would mesh well with his character arc. His whole deal for basically four entire books has been "learning to want to be alive"; killing him off, however nobly, would be like a slap in the face--not just to Kaladin, but to readers as well. For Kaladin to have spent so long coming to terms with his depression, to finally want to live and not throw away his life at the first opportunity, and then to just say "haha jokes I'm gonna do it lol" would be totally wrong in my opinion.

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6 hours ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Kaladin staying alive is necessary specifically because he will not stand for the 'ends justifying the means' and is the character most, as of right now, able to provide an alternative to those who seek the easier paths. Kaladin is, at least in my opinion, just as enigmatic as Kelsier and is, also my opinion, a far greater choice to have surviving through the ages specifically because he understands and can empathise with the abused without the necessity of a reward or a boon.

 

The Cosmere NEEDS kindness, compassion, and an unyielding person like Kaladin to step forward and journey the worlds, because otherwise things will not end well. Kaladin is someone who can make an ACTUAL difference to the Cosmere and I suspect his potential, at the end of Book 5 at least, will only have just begun to be revealed in the greater scheme of the Cosmere.

I completely agree that it would be useful to have an actually compassionate person who would stand up for morality or ethics, or basic human decency even toward people they wouldn’t consider human, out in the wider universe. @Gyirin’s right, it’s kind of terrifying imagining what would happen to the Cosmere if we don’t get more morally-decent people out in the mix.

But I just realized the symbolism of Fleet dying at the end and his spirit being swept up into the storm could just as well be a hint at Kaladin leaving the confines of Roshar as a hint of him dying.

So, maybe we should look at the excerpt in WoR ch. 59:

Quote

“For glory lit, and life alive, for goals unreached and aims to strive. All men must try, the wind did see. It is the test, it is the dream.”

Kaladin stepped slowly up to the bars. Even with eyes open, he could see it. Imagine it.

“So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise.

“It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.”

Toward that theory, there are a few potential clues. For life alive? Refused to end this race? In that case, it’s possible “past the sea and past the waves” might mean beyond the planet itself.

I hadn’t really thought of it being likely this story spoke about world-hopping rather than something like ascension, but then I looked at what Rock said.

RoW ch. 12, near the end (emphasis mine):

Quote

Feeling like he was in a trance, Kaladin stood. “Will you return? If you can, after?”

Rock shook his head. “This thing I have done here with all of you, he is the end. When we meet again, I suspect it shall not be in this world. This life.

Kaladin embraced his friend. One final, crushing Horneater hug. When they pulled apart, Rock was crying, but smiling. “You gave me back my life,” he said. “Thank you for that, Kaladin, bridgeleader. Do not be sad that now I choose to live that life.”

“You go to imprisonment or worse.”

I go to the gods,” Rock said. He held up his finger. “There is one who lives here. One afah’liki. He is powerful god, but tricky. You should not have lost his flute.”

That sounded too much like going to death when I first read it, but it could just as well be what some people have been surmising over in the older Rock’s Fate thread or even older Rock thread, a new role for Rock that takes him off Roshar or into Shadesmar.

In that vein, the Fleet story could be about death or an ascension (such as to Cognitive Shadow or a non-corporeal force within the Storm), yes. But could it instead be about ascending to a new role out in the wider Cosmere.

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I've always thought he'd become a herald. The cognitive shadow element of this fits nicely with becoming a Herald IMHO

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Yeah, with Jezrien gone and Kal heading to Shinovar, in the west, where Fleet’s race ended, and possibly meeting up with the most powerful (if crazy) Bondsmith we know of in Ishar, I think Kal becoming a Herald feels really heavily foreshadowed.

What the continued utility of the Heralds is, given the Everstorm, is another question though. 

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Dalinar doesn't really have to match Honor. If he were to ascend, he'd probably be Unity instead. (remember in Oathbringer?) Right now, he's bound to the soul of Honor, but he's pushing that soul to grow and change his beliefs about what is possible, and right.

I thought Kaladin as a Wordhopper was set up perfectly when Sazed/Harmony said he was looking for someone to be his sword, who could both protect and kill. Interesting wording, right? It's not the wording generally used to talk about Preservation and Ruin, but it is exactly what Kaladin is all about.  Unless Sazed wants Wax. 

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It’s Wax (allow of law and all that)

He calls himself Harmonys sword 

I say this in every topic

The timeline works out perfectly wax is in the Roughs now 

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I don't think Kaladin will die or ascend, for the first time after the end of WoK he has a long term objective, revolutionize Roshar medical system more specifically the mental health part. There's a point in the book where he even feels a calling for it.

He is also starting being connected with the heralds and cognitive shadows, the conversation with zahel, which will be relevant in the back half books.

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Personally I think Dalinar loses the contest of champions and becomes a fused. And is somehow saved????

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If Dalinar loses he will not be saved. We will not have a contest with no definitive stakes bar a few scenarios

At least that’s my opinion

:ph34r:

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