That Final Conversation (Secret History Spoilers)

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

 

@mathiau RoW spoilers.

Oops

Thanks:)

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Oops

Thanks:)

They aren't supposed to be mentioned at all outside the RoW forum.

You're welcome

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even if he "has nothing to live for" he can still want to live.

 

@mathiau RoW spoilers.

 

Yes, and maybe it's because I've just re-read The Lord of the Rings for the umpteenth time in my life, but it feels to me like a human clinging on to an unnaturally prolonged existence for its own sake (whether out of fear of death, or a never-ending sense of FOMO) is an intrinsically Bad Choice that will have Consequences.

(And I can guess what your removed RoW spoiler in this regard was referencing, and it doesn't contradict that sentiment - not yet, at any rate)

[mathiau]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They aren't supposed to be mentioned at all outside the RoW forum.

You're welcome

I had forgotten that part.

Just now, robardin said:

Yes, and maybe it's because I've just re-read The Lord of the Rings for the umpteenth time in my life, but it feels to me like a human clinging on to an unnaturally prolonged existence for its own sake (whether out of fear of death, or a never-ending sense of FOMO) is an intrinsically Bad Choice that will have Consequences.

(And I can guess what your removed RoW spoiler in this regard was referencing, and it doesn't contradict that sentiment - not yet, at any rate)

We have enough intrinsically immortal beings to assume this is not the same in the Cosmere

(It was not removed at that moment, just hidden.)

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, and maybe it's because I've just re-read The Lord of the Rings for the umpteenth time in my life, but it feels to me like a human clinging on to an unnaturally prolonged existence for its own sake (whether out of fear of death, or a never-ending sense of FOMO) is an intrinsically Bad Choice that will have Consequences.

I never said it wouldn't have consequences or what they were, just that I think Kelsier should have stayed.

[+robardin]

Just now, mathiau said:

I had forgotten that part.

We have enough intrinsically immortal beings to assume this is not the same in the Cosmere

(It was not removed at that moment, just hidden.)

Yes, it's different for an "intrinsically" immortal being, or a human who has upgraded to being one, as via Ascension.

I would say what happened with The Lord Ruler was an aspect of what he'd done to himself as a kind of Artificial Approximate Ascension. I mean sure, even as a young man he was ruthless, domineering, cruel, etc., but his seeming bored or tired all the time, like he felt nothing any more other than a desire to continue dominating.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I never said it wouldn't have consequences or what they were, just that I think Kelsier should have stayed.

Indeed, it would not be in character for Kelsier not to stay at that point. It's who he was/is. He's genuinely surprised when Rashek, Vin, and Elend all choose to move on, even though they didn't "have to go" (Rashek because he'd held the Power, as Kelsier himself has done by the end of SH, and Vin and Elend because Harmony gave them a way back that they didn't take).

[Kingsdaughter613]

@mathiau I actually put that last line in because I suspected the person I was arguing with was referencing RoW and wanted them to either clarify that they weren’t or admit they were. I was getting rather frustrated because I couldn’t properly argue points as the other person wasn’t clarifying their points.

I don’t know that he’s not listening to her though. There’s some indications that he’s trying to consider Fuzz’s words, at least with regard to the Scadrians, as he doesn’t seem to want them to know he’s about. He’s not someone who changes easily though, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he isn’t.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 2/14/2021 at 10:22 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Hey, I’m both! Kinda... I’m working on the therapist bit.

Kell’s last words to Vin were also pretty harsh, if we’re being fair. And I do think some of what she said came from knowing that he wasn’t going to follow her Beyond.

But I think she told him what she did because she KNEW it was the last thing she would say to him. And she remembered the effect Kelsier’s last words had on her. And she wanted him to remember them whenever he remembered her.

Because Kelsier’s story has a long way to go. And there’s something in his future. Something I think Leras saw when he Preserved Kelsier and again as he died and Kell Ascended. Something Sazed saw when he refused to resurrect Kelsier because “Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.” Something Vin saw when she was Preservation.

Her words were harsh, yes. But as Kelsier continues to survive, continues to plot and manipulate, continues to scheme and contrive, it’s something he needs to remember. Something he needs to hear from one of the few people he can’t ignore and won’t forget. Something he needs to keep in mind as he moves through the centuries; something to keep him on the right side of the line; something to push him toward becoming a better man.

And Vin was never going to get another chance, nor a better one, to tell him.

I don’t know if that helps, but that’s how I see it. She told him what he needed to hear, not necessarily what she wanted to say. And that’s love too.

I just finished reading Secret History and was hoping to find a theory like this. I agree with you 100%. Vin was a Vessel of Preservation, so she knew so much about Kelsier that Kelsier himself didn’t know. Vin saw the precognitive plan Kelsier threaded through to give Vin the power, the inspiration of Spook and Trusting Marsh, his escapades as a Cognitive Shadow, and she “knew” Kelsier’s life as mortal just as Kelsier “knew” Goradel’s history and motives. Vin likely saw Leras’ own plans for Kelsier.

I too think Vin saw something in Kelsier’s future, as she saw into the future of the entire world. But I also think she saw something important in Kelsier’s past. Something about Kelsier’s personality, motives, and Connections that indicate he’s a good person but needs to grow in some way. 

Something that Leras foresaw as he Preserved Kelsier in the Pits and commanded him to Survive, Preserved him again as a Cognitive Shadow, and showed him the path of future possibilities that started from Kelsier heading west. Something Leras foresaw when he called out Kelsier’s use of the skaa’s devotion, yet trusted him to become better. Something that Sazed foresaw when he refused to bring Kelsier back to the Physical Realm, restricting a choice he was willing to give Vin and Elend.

Edited April 12 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer