That Final Conversation (Secret History Spoilers)

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

So, I finally got Arcanum Unbounded and the last conversation between Vin and Kelsier is the (in my opinion) second saddest thing in Mr. Sanderson's work.

Vin's just so harsh, and for those to be her last words ever to Kelsier, is, well...

Kelsier's not a good person, and Vin always saw through him like few ever did, but I want to scream at the book "darn it Vin, you weren't this harsh in your thoughts on Reen, and you were more forgiving of Rashek!

And you know what hurts the most, Vin?  In the end, it was you who left.  Sure, Kelsier died, but he never truly abandoned you, never stopped looking out for you, believing in you, being proud of you when you grew into the person you became, not even death stopped him from trying to do what was best for you because he is Thief Dad and you are Thief Daughter."

I mean, yes, Vin deserves her happy eternity in the beyond with Elend, but Kelsier didn't even get to meet Mare (or Dox, or Clubs) in the afterlife, had a front-row seat to the-world-being-destroyed-and-it's-pretty-much-all-his-fault-and-there's-almost-nothing-he-can-do-about-it, and also went through the (in my opinion) single saddest thing in Mr. Sanderson's work (Leras's death), and now Vin can't even say anything nice/good/kind to/about him without following it with "but, ".

 

Honestly, it hurts, and it honestly makes me want to not reread the original Mistborn trilogy, so I gotta ask, guys:  How do you deal with sad Cosmere thoughts that you can't explain to a therapist or non-reader friends?

[Bejarden]

1: Come to the 17th shard 

2: go to a regrets thread

3: Let it all out

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

So, I finally got Arcanum Unbounded and the last conversation between Vin and Kelsier is the (in my opinion) second saddest thing in Mr. Sanderson's work.

Vin's just so harsh, and for those to be her last words ever to Kelsier, is, well...

Kelsier's not a good person, and Vin always saw through him like few ever did, but I want to scream at the book "darn it Vin, you weren't this harsh in your thoughts on Reen, and you were more forgiving of Rashek!

And you know what hurts the most, Vin?  In the end, it was you who left.  Sure, Kelsier died, but he never truly abandoned you, never stopped looking out for you, believing in you, being proud of you when you grew into the person you became, not even death stopped him from trying to do what was best for you because he is Thief Dad and you are Thief Daughter."

I mean, yes, Vin deserves her happy eternity in the beyond with Elend, but Kelsier didn't even get to meet Mare (or Dox, or Clubs) in the afterlife, had a front-row seat to the-world-being-destroyed-and-it's-pretty-much-all-his-fault-and-there's-almost-nothing-he-can-do-about-it, and also went through the (in my opinion) single saddest thing in Mr. Sanderson's work (Leras's death), and now Vin can't even say anything nice/good/kind to/about him without following it with "but, ".

 

Honestly, it hurts, and it honestly makes me want to not reread the original Mistborn trilogy, so I gotta ask, guys:  How do you deal with sad Cosmere thoughts that you can't explain to a therapist or non-reader friends?

Hey, I’m both! Kinda... I’m working on the therapist bit.

Kell’s last words to Vin were also pretty harsh, if we’re being fair. And I do think some of what she said came from knowing that he wasn’t going to follow her Beyond.

But I think she told him what she did because she KNEW it was the last thing she would say to him. And she remembered the effect Kelsier’s last words had on her. And she wanted him to remember them whenever he remembered her.

Because Kelsier’s story has a long way to go. And there’s something in his future. Something I think Leras saw when he Preserved Kelsier and again as he died and Kell Ascended. Something Sazed saw when he refused to resurrect Kelsier because “Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.” Something Vin saw when she was Preservation.

Her words were harsh, yes. But as Kelsier continues to survive, continues to plot and manipulate, continues to scheme and contrive, it’s something he needs to remember. Something he needs to hear from one of the few people he can’t ignore and won’t forget. Something he needs to keep in mind as he moves through the centuries; something to keep him on the right side of the line; something to push him toward becoming a better man.

And Vin was never going to get another chance, nor a better one, to tell him.

I don’t know if that helps, but that’s how I see it. She told him what he needed to hear, not necessarily what she wanted to say. And that’s love too.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

That IS love, but... but then why does it hurt worse than hate?

[Kingsdaughter613]

41 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

That IS love, but... but then why does it hurt worse than hate?

Love always hurts more.

The example I’ve heard is as follows: When you neighbor’s kid makes noise in synagogue/church/mosque/whatever, you just ignore him. When YOUR kid does it, you tell them off. Why? Because you care about YOUR kid. The neighbor’s kid doesn’t matter to you.

We care about the ones we love. Their opinions matter to us. Their actions matter to us. Love always hurts. But the pain is worth what we gain from those relationships.

My older daughter almost died at two months old. And while we thought she was going to die my dad asked if, knowing what was to come, I’d have still had her. And I told him yes without hesitation. Because those eleven perfect months - nine where I carried her below my heart and two where I held her in my arms - were worth the pain of losing her and I wouldn’t give those up for anything.

Love is worth the pain it brings. Love is worth the pain of loss. Love is worth being betrayed, being hurt, being broken. Because life without love is meaningless.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words:

Here she is as a newborn in the hospital

Her first smiles, less than a week before she got sick

In the hospital a few days later

And here she is now, four years old, my little miracle girl. My little survivor. And despite everything, despite what all the doctors claimed, she finally began smiling again a few months ago. And those smiles were worth every tear, every bit of pain, every grief and every fear, and all the sleepless nights playing nurse.

Love is pain. But it’s worth it.

[Raphaborn]

It is obvious that she was tough on him. Kelsier is still insisting on remaining as a Cognitive Shadow even though everyone else considers (and knows) that this is a bad idea. So a warning for him to try not to make the same mistakes as always is a very genuine concern, and a lot more honest than just words of comfort.
Also, Vin did not abandon Kelsier. She fulfilled her natural role at Cosmere. Kelsier who is acting selfishly and irresponsibly for staying. If he didn't want to be alone, he should have passed Beyond with her. Come on, he just asked her to leave Elend and stay there with her (even though it will hurt both him and her).
Also, consider new lies and manipulations after that. I consider that Vin was even too light with him. But, after all, she was his apprentice and not his babysitter.
He died, and she had to deal with it and live her life his way. And she learned that to love is to let the one you love make your own decisions. Everyone is responsible for their choices and their consequences, not how others will feel about it.
Anyway, just my opinion on that.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Raphaborn

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Raphaborn said:

Kelsier who is acting selfishly and irresponsibly for staying.

How did you arrive at that connclusion?

Selfish, for living?

[Raphaborn]

Just now, Frustration said:

How did you arrive at that connclusion?

Selfish, for living?

He's not alive. He's a CS. No less than three gods, and three renowned and knowledgeable worldhoppers said how bad that is. And we've already seen a part of that.

[Frustration]

Just now, Raphaborn said:

He's not alive. He's a CS. No less than three gods, and three renowned and knowledgeable worldhoppers said how bad that is. And we've already seen a part of that.

If he hasn't gone to the Beyond, he's not dead, his body is, but he isn't

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Raphaborn said:

It is obvious that she was tough on him. Kelsier is still insisting on remaining as a Cognitive Shadow even though everyone else considers (and knows) that this is a bad idea. So a warning for him to try not to make the same mistakes as always is a very genuine concern, and a lot more honest than just words of comfort.
Also, Vin did not abandon Kelsier. She fulfilled her natural role at Cosmere. Kelsier who is acting selfishly and irresponsibly for staying. If he didn't want to be alone, he should have passed Beyond with her. Come on, he just asked her to leave Elend and stay there with her (even though it will hurt both him and her).
Also, consider new lies and manipulations after that. I consider that Vin was even too light with him. But, after all, she was his apprentice and not his nanny.
He died, and she had to deal with it and live her life his way. And she learned that to love is to let the one you love make your own decisions. Everyone is responsible for their choices and their consequences, not how others will feel about it.
Anyway, just my opinion on that.

I disagree that Kelsier should go Beyond if he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t really believe anything is Beyond. He doesn’t think he’d be with Vin if he goes Beyond; he thinks they’ll both cease to exist.

Should Wax have killed himself to stay with Lessie? Kaladin to stay with Tien? Of course not! So why should Kelsier kill himself to stay with Vin? Because he died once? So did Wax. So did Szeth. So did Susebron and Vasher. So did every other Cognitive Shadow! Do you think they should all kill themselves? I see no reason for Kelsier to perform an act that, on some level, he views as suicide just because everyone else thinks it’s a good idea.
 

No one is suggesting the Heralds, the Returned and the Stormfather kill themselves. I’ve yet to see anyone arguing that Seb should leave Siri a widow or that the Stormfather should go Beyond, making all these arguments rather hypocritical. And, just to note, Returned CHOSE to come back and Tanavast chose to stick around. Just like Kelsier did. Just as I think many others would if given the opportunity. Nazh implies that at least some Threnodites deliberately became Shadows.

It also wasn’t said that sticking around was a bad thing. What people noted was that it was ‘inexplicable’ to them that Kelsier wanted to stay. Kelsier, quite reasonably, doesn’t want to commit suicide. Maybe if he really believed in an afterlife we could argue. But he doesn’t. That’s made clear right at the beginning of Secret History. And that means there is absolutely no good reason for him to go Beyond. Nothing awaits him there but cessation of existence.

Oh, and asking your daughter not to commit suicide with her husband - which is how Kelsier views this - is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do.

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

If he hasn't gone to the Beyond, he's not dead, his body is, but he isn't

Depends on you're definition of dead, I agree with you but it seems Brandon doesn't

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, and asking your daughter not to commit suicide with her husband - which is how Kelsier views this - is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do.

Yes, we should stop forgetting Vin was not asking him to go to the Beyond but explaining why she was going.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Depends on you're definition of dead, I agree with you but it seems Brandon doesn't

Yes, we should stop forgetting Vin was not asking him to go to the Beyond but explaining why she was going.

Brandon seems to consider it ‘semi-dead.’

And yes, I agree with that. But I already explained why Vin said what she did. She had no expectation that Kelsier would go. In fact, I think she - and Sazed and Leras - know something about Kelsier’s future that requires him to remain for now. Because I do think it’s quite interesting that neither Saze nor Vin even attempted to convince Kelsier to go.

But I also think it’s important to remember that Kelsier doesn’t really think there’s anything Beyond. I think he likes to imagine there is, but he doesn’t believe it. So when he’s trying to convince Vin to stay he is - on some level - trying to prevent her from committing suicide. It’s an important factor in how he views going Beyond that I think people forget.

[Raphaborn]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I disagree that Kelsier should go Beyond if he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t really believe anything is Beyond. He doesn’t think he’d be with Vin if he goes Beyond; he thinks they’ll both cease to exist.

Should Wax have killed himself to stay with Lessie? Kaladin to stay with Tien? Of course not! So why should Kelsier kill himself to stay with Vin? Because he died once? So did Wax. So did Szeth. So did Susebron and Vasher. So did every other Cognitive Shadow! Do you think they should all kill themselves? I see no reason for Kelsier to perform an act that, on some level, he views as suicide just because everyone else thinks it’s a good idea.
 

No one is suggesting the Heralds, the Returned and the Stormfather kill themselves. I’ve yet to see anyone arguing that Seb should leave Siri a widow or that the Stormfather should go Beyond, making all these arguments rather hypocritical. And, just to note, Returned CHOSE to come back and Tanavast chose to stick around. Just like Kelsier did. Just as I think many others would if given the opportunity. Nazh implies that at least some Threnodites deliberately became Shadows.

It also wasn’t said that sticking around was a bad thing. What people noted was that it was ‘inexplicable’ to them that Kelsier wanted to stay. Kelsier, quite reasonably, doesn’t want to commit suicide. Maybe if he really believed in an afterlife we could argue. But he doesn’t. That’s made clear right at the beginning of Secret History. And that means there is absolutely no good reason for him to go Beyond. Nothing awaits him there but cessation of existence.

Oh, and asking your daughter not to commit suicide with her husband - which is how Kelsier views this - is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do.

None of his examples are like Kelsier's.
It's like saying that if you don't believe there is anything else on the other side, you are totally justified in becoming an undead (even if you have every reason why this is bad and horrible).
Most of the other CS's have a purpose and were specifically designated by the Shards who, although they are not infallible, know much more about what they are doing and all these CS's know that they will eventually leave but have solid reasons to stay longer. And that didn't do well for almost any of them.
And I'm not saying that he should commit suicide, he's not even alive. It would be like saying that Vin committed suicide by not staying. It is the natural cycle of life, and the natural cycle of death.
If he wants to stay and make the same mistakes as always, good for him, but it is very selfish to ask Vin to do the same. And basically they are practically pointing here the opposite. If he wants to continue with this, a warning for him to try to be better is nothing short of fair. Especially if this is the last moment for that.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Raphaborn

[Kingsdaughter613]

44 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

None of his examples are like Kelsier's.
It's like saying that if you don't believe there is anything else on the other side, you are totally justified in becoming an undead (even if you have every reason why this is bad and horrible).
Most of the other CS's have a purpose and were specifically designated by the Shards who, although they are not infallible, know much more about what they are doing and all these CS's know that they will eventually leave but have solid reasons to stay longer. And that didn't do well for almost any of them.
And I'm not saying that he should commit suicide, he's not even alive. It would be like saying that Vin committed suicide by not staying. It is the natural cycle of life, and the natural cycle of death.
If he wants to stay and make the same mistakes as always, good for him, but it is very selfish to ask Vin to do the same. And basically they are practically pointing here the opposite. If he wants to continue with this, a warning for him to try to be better is nothing short of fair. Especially if this is the last moment for that.

I wasn’t complaining about the warning. I was pointing out that from his perspective it’s suicide. That is how Kelsier perceives it. Whether he’s right or wrong is irrelevant.

Kelsier doesn’t really consider himself dead. Whether he’s right or wrong - and I believe he’s more right than wrong - doesn’t matter. From your perspective he is, from mine he isn’t, but the only one whose perspective matters here is Kelsier’s.

And, as an aside, Tanavast definitely had a choice and chose to stay. Returned are given the option to stay; for every one we’ve seen there are likely dozens that refuse. None of them had to stay. It was a choice.  And Edgli is pretty haphazard about who she offers the option to, btw.

And Preservation had a choice too. He was lucid when he Preserved Kelsier. Preservation saw something and decided to Preserve Kelsier for that reason. So ultimately it was a Shard’s decision and Kelsier’s Preservation had a purpose.

And I don’t think that purpose has been fulfilled. I think Vin saw it, and I think says knows it too. Preservation wanted Kelsier Preserved for a reason and that’s why Vin doesn’t try to convince him to go Beyond with her. Instead she explains why she is choosing to go.

Oh, and reread SH. NO ONE tells Kelsier sticking around has negative consequences. All he’s told is that his choice to remain is inexplicable, despite it being clear that most ‘runners’ are unwilling to go either. He doesn’t know of any possible  consequences.

Personally I see no reason for anyone not ready to go Beyond not to try to find a way to stick around until they are. I don’t see Shadows - bodies or not - as dead and I don’t think they should have to die if they can avoid it. Life is hope, even if it’s only a half life.

Oh, and none of your comments on Kelsier’s character come remotely close to answering the OPs question. She wasn’t asking if Kelsier ‘deserved’ the warning (and does anyone ever ‘deserve’ anything?); she was asking why Vin chose her last words to be so harsh. So maybe try answering the actual question being asked?

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

None of his examples are like Kelsier's.
It's like saying that if you don't believe there is anything else on the other side, you are totally justified in becoming an undead (even if you have every reason why this is bad and horrible).

Why?

"Because everyone said so" is not a valid answer. (by the way it's likely Aona and Fleet stayed as shadows after they died and possible big A did the same so I really doubt it's really a bad idea)

Quote

And I'm not saying that he should commit suicide, he's not even alive. It would be like saying that Vin committed suicide by not staying. It is the natural cycle of life, and the natural cycle of death.

He sees it as a suicide, therefore that would be

Quote

If he wants to stay and make the same mistakes as always, good for him, but it is very selfish to ask Vin to do the same.

For the last time asking someone not to commit suicide -even if they're not actually committing suicide- is not selfish

Quote

And basically they are practically pointing here the opposite. If he wants to continue with this, a warning for him to try to be better is nothing short of fair. Especially if this is the last moment for that.

I don't understand what these sentences mean, could you reformulate?

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And, as an aside, Tanavast definitely had a choice and chose to stay. Returned are given the option to stay; for every one we’ve seen there are likely dozens that refuse. None of them had to stay. It was a choice.  And Edgli is pretty haphazard about who she offers the option to, btw.

Tanavast's case is weird, his kind of not there

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Personally I see no reason for anyone not ready to go Beyond not to try to find a way to stick around until they are. I don’t see Shadows - bodies or not - as dead and I don’t think they should have to die if they can avoid it. Life is hope, even if it’s only a half life.

Agreed. Shades could be the exception though

[Raphaborn]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I wasn’t complaining about the warning. I was pointing out that from his perspective it’s suicide. That is how Kelsier perceives it. Whether he’s right or wrong is irrelevant.

Kelsier doesn’t really consider himself dead. Whether he’s right or wrong - and I believe he’s more right than wrong - doesn’t matter. From your perspective he is, from mine he isn’t, but the only one whose perspective matters here is Kelsier’s.

I don't know how far I can agree with that opinion. Kelsier has already committed suicide when he was alive, and he knows that this current state is not life but an intermediate path between death and ... something.

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And, as an aside, Tanavast definitely had a choice and chose to stay. Returned are given the option to stay; for every one we’ve seen there are likely dozens that refuse. None of them had to stay. It was a choice.  And Edgli is pretty haphazard about who she offers the option to, btw.

And Preservation had a choice too. He was lucid when he Preserved Kelsier. Preservation saw something and decided to Preserve Kelsier for that reason. So ultimately it was a Shard’s decision and Kelsier’s Preservation had a purpose.

Tanavast isn't exactly there, actually. And the Heralds know that they will eventually need to leave. It is their stay in Roshar that has driven them crazy.
Again, Edgli is a Shard (having much greater knowledge of what he is doing) and even his immortality comes at a price and has a clear specified purpose.
Yes, Preservation ended up agreeing to let Kelsier stay. But he repeatedly said that this was not certain, that there was a way for things to be, and he is also not lucid. He has better and worse times, but he's already died and exists only as a shadow because Shards die differently (and he needs to secure a new Vessel).

 

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I don’t think that purpose has been fulfilled. I think Vin saw it, and I think says knows it too. Preservation wanted Kelsier Preserved for a reason and that’s why Vin doesn’t try to convince him to go Beyond with her. Instead she explains why she is choosing to go.

Preservation accepted Preserving Kelsier, he didn't really want that. And she doesn't try to convince you because it doesn't work. Sazed lied to him about not being able to get a body, and that didn't stop him. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, and reread SH. NO ONE tells Kelsier sticking around has negative consequences. All he’s told is that his choice to remain is inexplicable, despite it being clear that most ‘runners’ are unwilling to go either. He doesn’t know of any possible  consequences.

He was told several times that souls must go, and that staying was not right. Nazh himself shows concern about him being a CS and he is not even interested in knowing why. He doesn't want to know why he should go Beyond, he wants to stay. And in these 300 years do you want to convince me that he doesn't know that it's a bad idea to be a CS?
 

 

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Personally I see no reason for anyone not ready to go Beyond not to try to find a way to stick around until they are. I don’t see Shadows - bodies or not - as dead and I don’t think they should have to die if they can avoid it. Life is hope, even if it’s only a half life.

Well, they are dead. I have no way of arguing whether someone has the right or not to want to stay, this is in the opinion of the reader and the CS to evaluate. But there are several problems with that, and in this unnatural existence, it is not just something like taking medication to extend your life span. Souls were made to go Beyond, just as everything alive was made to die.

[Raphaborn]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Why?

"Because everyone said so" is not a valid answer. (by the way it's likely Aona and Fleet stayed as shadows after they died and possible big A did the same so I really doubt it's really a bad idea)

Considering that half of the book is about Kelsier running around trying to discover things he doesn't know by asking those who do, I don't know if I agree with that. Since Shards even scholars have told him that this is not normal, and it can be dangerous (Nazh doesn't even trust him much), and he could have taken any doubts about it if he wanted to. His questions were about Ruin's problem, saving Preservation and preventing the Apocalypse. Commendable, yes, but it is still noticeable that he is only hearing what is convenient.
 

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

He sees it as a suicide, therefore that would be

For the last time asking someone not to commit suicide -even if they're not actually committing suicide- is not selfish

He never said he saw it as suicide. He didn't want to go if he could stay, it's different. It is like someone with a serious illness who decides to try treatment, deciding not to be treated is not suicide. Although in this case Cognitive, staying creates many problems (and it is not the same as being alive).

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

I don't understand what these sentences mean, could you reformulate?

Vin isn't just being harsh to him. This is the only chance she has to do what he did for her, to realize that he still needs to improve.  So this criticism is quite fair. And, being their last meeting, that was what needed to be said. Kelsier may have done good things, but as she says he needed to become something that she worries about. And considering the number of new lies and manipulation, in addition to the new dangers he created, it seems that it had no effect.
Furthermore, I totally disagree that she was not harsh with thoughts about Reen, or that she was lenient with Rashek.

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

I don't know how far I can agree with that opinion. Kelsier has already committed suicide when he was alive, and he knows that this current state is not life but an intermediate path between death and ... something.

Tanavast isn't exactly there, actually. And the Heralds know that they will eventually need to leave. It is their stay in Roshar that has driven them crazy.
Again, Edgli is a Shard (having much greater knowledge of what he is doing) and even his immortality comes at a price and has a clear specified purpose.
Yes, Preservation ended up agreeing to let Kelsier stay. But he repeatedly said that this was not certain, that there was a way for things to be, and he is also not lucid. He has better and worse times, but he's already died and exists only as a shadow because Shards die differently (and he needs to secure a new Vessel).

 

Preservation accepted Preserving Kelsier, he didn't really want that. And she doesn't try to convince you because it doesn't work. Sazed lied to him about not being able to get a body, and that didn't stop him. 
 

 

He was told several times that souls must go, and that staying was not right. Nazh himself shows concern about him being a CS and he is not even interested in knowing why. He doesn't want to know why he should go Beyond, he wants to stay. And in these 300 years do you want to convince me that he doesn't know that it's a bad idea to be a CS?
 

 

Well, they are dead. I have no way of arguing whether someone has the right or not to want to stay, this is in the opinion of the reader and the CS to evaluate. But there are several problems with that, and in this unnatural existence, it is not just something like taking medication to extend your life span. Souls were made to go Beyond, just as everything alive was made to die.

And I don’t consider them dead until all ties to the three realms are cut. If something halts the process than they aren’t dead. This is a philosophical argument and your opinion is NOT the only valid one.

Kelsier doesn’t consider himself dead. Knowing something is not the same as feeling it.

Nazh is offended that the process wasn’t done ‘properly’, not concerned.

I never mentioned Heralds. And you misgendered Edgli. And Shardic opinions are not necessarily correct or wise and Brandon has noted that Edgli is ‘inconsistent.’

The Returned seem to be doing fine. If it’s such a bad idea, why hasn’t 600 year old Warbreaker given up his Divine Breath yet? And you keep mentioning negative effects: care to expand on those?

Leras was lucid when he Preserved Kelsier. His entire demeanor changes. When he did it, he did it for a reason. That reason is unknown (but Scadrial would have been destroyed if Kelsier went Beyond then, so...)

Kelsier asks Vin to stay. It would be reasonable to flip it around and ask him to stay with her, even if she knows he won’t. She could then tell him what she does. She doesn’t, which is quite interesting.

Sazed refuses to resurrect Kelsier because ‘Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.’ This implies to me that Sazed knew something and was trying to nudge Kelsier in a particular direction. It’s possible Sazed knew Kelsier’s studies on hemalurgy were necessary to save South Scadrial.

Sorry, what lies and manipulations? Last we saw Kelsier was saving all of South Scadrial. Who would all have frozen to death if Kelsier had gone with Vin (which I think both Vin and Saze knew). I think they’d argue that him staying was a very good thing.

Oh, and don’t double post.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Raphaborn]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I don’t consider them dead until all ties to the three realms are cut. If something halts the process than they aren’t dead. This is a philosophical argument and your opinion is NOT the only valid one.

Kelsier doesn’t consider himself dead. Knowing something is not the same as feeling it.

Sorry, but I am not imposing my opinion. I am using the definition of the book. Leras defines Kelsier, and even himself as dead. Wax is defined as dead. You are creating your definitions and trying to impose them on me.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Raphaborn said:

Sorry, but I am not imposing my opinion. I am using the definition of the book. Leras defines Kelsier, and even himself as dead. Wax is defined as dead. You are creating your definitions and trying to impose them on me.

Those are philosophical opinions. There are others. The books don’t consider Returned dead, but do consider Hoed Elantrians dead. There are multiple opinions of what constitutes death and we know that lacking a tie to one realm does not stop someone from being alive (see Spren).

Brandon seems to use ‘dead’ for convenience. He also talks about the difference between ‘dead’ and really ‘dead’ in the Cosmere. One you can come back from and the other you can’t. Pseudo-death might be more accurate, or not-quite alive. He’s also referred to the Cognitive Realm as the afterlife and the Beyond as the after-after life, despite the CR clearly not being an afterlife.

And Wax was as ‘dead’ as someone whose heart stops and is subsequently resuscitated. According to you my older daughter is dead because she ‘died’ multiple times while sick. Wax’s ties to the three realms weren’t cut (and I notice you have no problem with his decision to be resuscitated).

You also didn’t answer my questions. You keep saying it’s a ‘bad idea’ to remain a Shadow, but you won’t explain why beyond deliberately misreading sections of text.

You also haven’t explained why you think Kelsier is ignoring Vin’s words, because we haven’t seen any evidence of that. Considering the care he’s gone to to keep his presence hidden, it seems he’s trying to avoid unduly manipulating his followers which would indicate that he’s trying to listen to Leras at least.

[Raphaborn]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Those are philosophical opinions. There are others. The books don’t consider Returned dead, but do consider Hoed Elantrians dead. There are multiple opinions of what constitutes death and we know that lacking a tie to one realm does not stop someone from being alive (see Spren).

Brandon seems to use ‘dead’ for convenience. He also talks about the difference between ‘dead’ and really ‘dead’ in the Cosmere. One you can come back from and the other you can’t. Pseudo-death might be more accurate, or not-quite alive. He’s also referred to the Cognitive Realm as the afterlife and the Beyond as the after-after life, despite the CR clearly not being an afterlife.

And Wax was as ‘dead’ as someone whose heart stops and is subsequently resuscitated. According to you my older daughter is dead because she ‘died’ multiple times while sick. Wax’s ties to the three realms weren’t cut (and I notice you have no problem with his decision to be resuscitated).

You also didn’t answer my questions. You keep saying it’s a ‘bad idea’ to remain a Shadow, but you won’t explain why beyond deliberately misreading sections of text.

You also haven’t explained why you think Kelsier is ignoring Vin’s words, because we haven’t seen any evidence of that. Considering the care he’s gone to to keep his presence hidden, it seems he’s trying to avoid unduly manipulating his followers which would indicate that he’s trying to listen to Leras at least.

As to why it is a bad idea, almost all Cosmere CSs are broken and crazy. They are no longer properly alive, and their wounds are like wounds right on your personality. It is somewhat difficult even for the personality to survive. Are there any ways to get through this, things that Kelsier is sure to be researching, but considering his knowledge and power how much damage will he do before he achieves something viable?
He lied to the Southerners, manipulated them into a new religion, and is most likely responsible for the Set group getting to know Hemalurgy. Yes, he saved Southern civilization, but as with all his actions, there is always chaos and many problems involved. Not everything he does is just to help people.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

As to why it is a bad idea, almost all Cosmere CSs are broken and crazy. They are no longer properly alive, and their wounds are like wounds right on your personality. It is somewhat difficult even for the personality to survive. Are there any ways to get through this, things that Kelsier is sure to be researching, but considering his knowledge and power how much damage will he do before he achieves something viable?
He lied to the Southerners, manipulated them into a new religion, and is most likely responsible for the Set group getting to know Hemalurgy. Yes, he saved Southern civilization, but as with all his actions, there is always chaos and many problems involved. Not everything he does is just to help people.

The Southerners name Herr and Frau as their gods. There is as much evidence that they misunderstood Kelsier as that he intentionally misled them. The Sovereign is their king; they do not refer to him as a god except in the general ‘all metalborn are gods’ sense. We haven’t seen his actual actions there; 300 years later things get warped.

And Kelsier has made sure to remain scarce for all the centuries since, allowing both halves of Scadrial to develop on their own. Harmony is more directly involved, from what we can tell. And Saze has also been ‘lying and manipulating’, or did you forget the whole of SoS?

Sorry, but would you prefer Kelsier didn’t save the South? If he hadn’t, they’d be dead now. If he’d gone with Vin there would be no South Scadrial. And if he’d gone when he was ‘supposed to’ there would be no Scadrial at all.

The Set probably know from Trell, actually. Finding bindpoints generally requires some kind of Shardic intervention.

We’ve seen four major groups of Shadows: Shades, which are specifically less aware than others. Returned, who seem to be fine. Heralds, who have weird things like the broken Oathpact and more mundane ones like being tortured for millenia. Fused, who take over other people’s bodies and are repeatedly reborn within a short time of being killed. Why should we assume Kelsier wouldn’t be fine like the Returned are?

 

 

[+robardin]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

How did you arrive at that connclusion?

Selfish, for living?

Well, who or what is it that he's got to live for?

If Elend and Vin, young people in the prime of life, whose dear friends would greatly benefit from their aid in rebuilding the world as full Mistborn (including a lerasium one), refuse Harmony's own offer to return to their restored bodies before it's too late, because it is meet and proper to answer the Call of the Beyond...

...who is Kelsier to refuse the call, and more importantly, why? Even when he can sense that, on the Other Side, he would be reunited with Mare, in whose name he supposedly engineered the fall of The Lord Ruler and the end of the Final Empire?

That was the meaning to Vin's parting words. Just as Kelsier's words to Vin long ago helped her to come out of her shell of bitterness and distrust, she wants Kelsier to reach a point of self-awareness that his actions have always had a strong element of egomania. It's up to him to decide what to do with that.

And I guess we will/have seen what he does with that. He embraces it!

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

Considering that half of the book is about Kelsier running around trying to discover things he doesn't know by asking those who do, I don't know if I agree with that. Since Shards even scholars have told him that this is not normal, and it can be dangerous (Nazh doesn't even trust him much), and he could have taken any doubts about it if he wanted to. His questions were about Ruin's problem, saving Preservation and preventing the Apocalypse. Commendable, yes, but it is still noticeable that he is only hearing what is convenient.

He's only beliving what is useful to him, nuance

Quote

He never said he saw it as suicide. He didn't want to go if he could stay, it's different.

He implied it far enough, and he definitely sees himself as alive

Quote

It is like someone with a serious illness who decides to try treatment, deciding not to be treated is not suicide. Although in this case Cognitive, staying creates many problems (and it is not the same as being alive).

Deciding not to be treated is a  suicide. Unless you consider the treatment method to be amoral, then it's a sacrifice.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Those are philosophical opinions. There are others. The books don’t consider Returned dead, but do consider Hoed Elantrians dead. There are multiple opinions of what constitutes death and we know that lacking a tie to one realm does not stop someone from being alive (see Spren).

Interesting, I would have called them "terminally sick"

Quote

Brandon seems to use ‘dead’ for convenience. He also talks about the difference between ‘dead’ and really ‘dead’ in the Cosmere. One you can come back from and the other you can’t. Pseudo-death might be more accurate, or not-quite alive. He’s also referred to the Cognitive Realm as the afterlife and the Beyond as the after-after life, despite the CR clearly not being an afterlife.

He also mentioned the Beyond as "maybe not existing at all"

Quote

You also haven’t explained why you think Kelsier is ignoring Vin’s words, because we haven’t seen any evidence of that.

We actually have evidence of the opposite, in the very next sentence

Edited February 17, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Well, who or what is it that he's got to live for?

If Elend and Vin, young people in the prime of life, whose dear friends would greatly benefit from their aid in rebuilding the world as full Mistborn (including a lerasium one), refuse Harmony's own offer to return to their restored bodies before it's too late, because it is meet and proper to answer the Call of the Beyond...

...who is Kelsier to refuse the call, and more importantly, why? Even when he can sense that, on the Other Side, he would be reunited with Mare, in whose name he supposedly engineered the fall of The Lord Ruler and the end of the Final Empire?

That was the meaning to Vin's parting words. Just as Kelsier's words to Vin long ago helped her to come out of her shell of bitterness and distrust, she wants Kelsier to reach a point of self-awareness that his actions have always had a strong element of egomania. It's up to him to decide what to do with that.

And I guess we will/have seen what he does with that. He embraces it!

Even if he "has nothing to live for" he can still want to live.

 

@mathiau RoW spoilers.