Ramblings about the restrictions on surgebinding and crackpot theories

[Valigus]

So it seems honor restricted the surges in some way to prevent what happened to ashyn and seemingly something stoneshaping did to yolen from happening again. This raises a few questions the most pressing of which are

1. what restrictions

it appears we know for certain that bondsmith are restricted and so are stonewards and willshapers because according to khriss their version is less destructive then what was on yolen

it also seems that the most limited surge is adhesion because adhesion seems to be the surge taht bound and codifies all the others it’s what connects every other surge into a cohesive whole.

and I think the restrictions really applied to the spiritual forms of everything, there is only a single order that seems to have access to the spiritual side of their powers in any major way. Windrunners kinda draws people to follow them and Lightweavers kinda change people’s perception and can transform them I guess but these are still very limited and it seems like these have been super restricted.

2. are those restrictions falling away

this one is a clear yes we know this for a fact but what exactly does this mean?

it means that surgebinding will likely Become stronger and new abilities will be accessed this may be happening already through kaladin who displays never mentioned or seen shardplate abilities alongside abilities that even his spren does not understand which should not happen.

3. Do these restrictions apply cosmere wide?

We don’t know about this but probably yes honor seems to be the force that codifys all forces in the universe and when it was part of adonalsium the part that is now honor was still always what was doing that. So likely I think it would restrict everything in some way.

the fact that all illusion magic mirrors light weaving seems to suggest this too.

- everything after this is just my crackpot theories about isnane windrunner abilities because they are probably restricted for a reason

so who will be most affected probably windrunners and bondsmiths adhesion seems to have likely been dampened more then any other surge because of its odd interaction with other things and insane power level. We know this is happening with bondsmiths reacessing insane abilities and we may have seen kaladin do the same for example the parting of a high storm is clearly not something that normally windrunners should be empowered to do. In fact windrunners may now be capable of things in the realm of the creation of black holes and generating infinite storm light, I think a windrunner could use adhesion to connect themselves to the spiritual realm directly like a bondsmith and draw investiture out and I think we have seen this before. In the duel in WoR kaladin displays a thing described very similarly to atium which could result from him using adhesion to connect to the spiritual realm.

In fact if the restrictions fall apart completely could windrunners gain access  to spiritual gravitation and adhesion because maybe windrunners aren’t allowed either of those since sky breaker do not have spiritual gravitation and the extent of it for windrunners seems to be a leadership buff basically drawing poeple to them. What if windrunners completely unchained could do isnane things like

Windrunners most insane theoretical power time travel or timeline manipulation, like imagine using spiritual gravitation to pull things like events to yourself and attach them with spiritual adhesion imagine a bondsmith and windrunner totally unbound and the windrunner could maybe create connections like forcibly attract these threads dalinar sees and forge connections the bondsmith can exploit. Or like imagine if you could pull the spiritual realm in a certain way like imagine since everything exists there at once you say went in and create a let’s call it spiritual lashing and then connected it to the formation of the path pact and pulled yourself to that moment through the spiritual realm or do something like pull yourself to the moment of odium defeat in the future which would be much easier since it’s possible in real life through near light speed travel or you could maybe take go in and like make something happen faster or make it inevitable like say you know ___ villain will die and you use spiritual gravitation to pull the moment of their death closer or pull yourself to it or maybe it’s not certain so you like pull them to a moment where they can die and bind them spiritually to make sure they do. The problem with this is windrunners wouldn’t know what exactly they are manipulating but combined with say renarin this could be incredibly powerful. Like what is spiritual gravitation if not time or at least part of it right, like a surge diner with spiritual progression and gravitation maybe could just control time.

i think I’m losing it.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Valigus

[Theoryspren]

Those are some very interesting ides.

Maybe you could also use adhesion and attach some around you to that moment in time, thereby temporarily freezing time for those around you. 

[Valigus]

1 hour ago, Theoryspren said:

Those are some very interesting ides.

Maybe you could also use adhesion and attach some around you to that moment in time, thereby temporarily freezing time for those around you. 

Yeah I May be crazy but I feel like there is a big reason the only surge that can use its spiritual aspect to a reasonable degree is adhesion and that windrunners they should be insanely strong. Stuff like black wholes and creating planets and manipulating connection pulling energy directly from the spiritual seem like things they should be able to do, in fact they can pull directly from the spiritual realm since they do taht when they swear oaths. So like these abilities like time travel or fate control or making black holes should take so much stormlight it’s stupid windrunners unrestricted may just be able to grab it from the spiritual realm, in fact they should be better at it then bondsmiths since gravitation should eat them create vortex’s to pull it form the spiritual. Maybe they could suck investiture from others?

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Valigus said:

So it seems honor restricted the surges in some way to prevent what happened to ashyn and seemingly something stoneshaping did to yolen from happening again. This raises a few questions the most pressing of which are

It's almost certain indeed

Quote

1. what restrictions

it appears we know for certain that bondsmith are restricted and so are stonewards and willshapers because according to khriss their version is less destructive then what was on yolen

it also seems that the most limited surge is adhesion because adhesion seems to be the surge taht bound and codifies all the others it’s what connects every other surge into a cohesive whole.

and I think the restrictions really applied to the spiritual forms of everything, there is only a single order that seems to have access to the spiritual side of their powers in any major way. Windrunners kinda draws people to follow them and Lightweavers kinda change people’s perception and can transform them I guess but these are still very limited and it seems like these have been super restricted.

Yolish's microkinesis is stupidly broken, I'm not sure how small the smallest moveable item is with it but Kriss talked about axis so it can't be bigger than molecule which already open a whole realm of chemistry processes we real humans can't explore. If it's the individual atoms composing the molecules it's the same thing but worse, you could extract the oxygen from water or transform a pencil lead to a big diamond. If it's the nucleons you're can transform nucleus. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if you it's quarks.

From Reverse Lashings being described as an hybrid of Adhesion and Gravitation it seems impossible the Windrunners were not supposed to have access to spiritual Adhesion.

Windrunners drawing people seems just to be that that order tend to attract leaders. Shallan transforming people didn't seems supernatural to me in any way. Also I think we shouldn't just search for Spiritual versions of the Surges but for "extended" version instead, for example some people have hypothesised the Perpendicularity creation was an hybrid of Spiritual Adhesion and some kind of conceptual Tension

Quote

InsaneScotsman

During the perpendicularity scene in Oathbringer is it safe to say that what Dalinar did is akin to super powered versions of his surges? Tension to make the realms ductile and formable, adhesion to bring them together. I know the specific ability is unique to Dalinar but I'm fairly attached to this rationalization

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't immediately shoot down this particular theory. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

The idea of making Shadesmare softer doesn't seem very spiritual to me. (also note that Perpendicularity creation being an Hybrid surge would explain why Ishar can make one)

Quote

2. are those restrictions falling away

this one is a clear yes we know this for a fact but what exactly does this mean?

it means that surgebinding will likely Become stronger and new abilities will be accessed this may be happening already through kaladin who displays never mentioned or seen shardplate abilities alongside abilities that even his spren does not understand which should not happen.

The Shardplate thing is probably just something that was lost to memory. Also don't forget Syl was young when she bounded her human and probably doesn't know everything she should.

Quote

3. Do these restrictions apply cosmere wide?

We don’t know about this but probably yes honor seems to be the force that codifys all forces in the universe and when it was part of adonalsium the part that is now honor was still always what was doing that. So likely I think it would restrict everything in some way.

the fact that all illusion magic mirrors light weaving seems to suggest this too.

I absolutely don't see why you see Honour as the one codifying the forces. Codifying human interaction maybe? No you'd actually need at to add least Devotion and Odium.

And saying Aon Shao mirror is a kind of a strech. They have similar effect but absolutely not the same means to create it.

Quote

- everything after this is just my crackpot theories about isnane windrunner abilities because they are probably restricted for a reason

so who will be most affected probably windrunners and bondsmiths adhesion seems to have likely been dampened more then any other surge because of its odd interaction with other things and insane power level. We know this is happening with bondsmiths reacessing insane abilities and we may have seen kaladin do the same for example the parting of a high storm is clearly not something that normally windrunners should be empowered to do. In fact windrunners may now be capable of things in the realm of the creation of black holes and generating infinite storm light, I think a windrunner could use adhesion to connect themselves to the spiritual realm directly like a bondsmith and draw investiture out and I think we have seen this before. In the duel in WoR kaladin displays a thing described very similarly to atium which could result from him using adhesion to connect to the spiritual realm.
 

On one hand parting a Highstorm is something we've seen Syl do in WoK and that can be explained by wind manipulation but on the the other hand the fact that they don't seem to be able to use Adhesionn the surge of pressure, to create wind add credit to your theory it's been nerfed.

Even assuming Windrunners can create stormlight they'll never create enough to make a stable black hole, in fact the biggest black hole they could make would explode instantly with a power similar to what Jasnah would already be able to produce.

I'm pretty sure light creation is the Boundsmiths' Resonance (and creating Perpendicularities that leaks tons of light their hybrid Surge, I know it seems a bit redundant)

Ishar displayed the exact same kind-of-foresight ability in RoW

Windrunners most insane theoretical power time travel or timeline manipulation, like imagine using spiritual gravitation to pull things like events to yourself and attach them with spiritual adhesion imagine a bondsmith and windrunner totally unbound and the windrunner could maybe create connections like forcibly attract these threads dalinar sees and forge connections the bondsmith can exploit. Or like imagine if you could pull the spiritual realm in a certain way like imagine since everything exists there at once you say went in and create a let’s call it spiritual lashing and then connected it to the formation of the path pact and pulled yourself to that moment through the spiritual realm or do something like pull yourself to the moment of odium defeat in the future which would be much easier since it’s possible in real life through near light speed travel or you could maybe take go in and like make something happen faster or make it inevitable like say you know ___ villain will die and you use spiritual gravitation to pull the moment of their death closer or pull yourself to it or maybe it’s not certain so you like pull them to a moment where they can die and bind them spiritually to make sure they do. The problem with this is windrunners wouldn’t know what exactly they are manipulating but combined with say renarin this could be incredibly powerful. Like what is spiritual gravitation if not time or at least part of it right, like a surge diner with spiritual progression and gravitation maybe could just control time.

Time travel to the past is impossible in the Cosmere

Quote

Adam Horne

A few people have wondered if we're ever going to see time travel in the cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Time travel into the past is something that I decided very early in the life of the cosmere that I was not going to deal with. So people can time travel into the future, but we can do that right now - not very much, but if you go fast, you are time traveling into the future by laws of relativity, and it's easier to do that in the cosmere. There are a couple things for storytelling that really throw a lot of wrenches into your worldbuilding. One of them's time travel; as soon as you introduce time travel, it changes everything.

Another one is bringing characters back from the dead, and since my very first cosmere book starts with someone being resurrected in chapter one, I knew that people coming back from the dead was not something I could have a hard fast rule against in the cosmere. Multiple books are based on the idea of people being resurrected; that's where Warbreaker and Elantris both come from, is that kind of idea.

Since I knew I was going to be doing that one, the other two that I think that really mess with things in strange ways are alternate dimensions and time travel. And that's when I just said I'm going to put those both off-limits in the cosmere. You saw me doing alternate dimension stuff in Steelheart, in part because I won't let myself do it in the cosmere. I'm already playing with fire with the way that people can become cognitive shadows in the cosmere, and I don't want to have the other two messing up narratives and storylines and things on the level that they would. So no time travel into the past ever in the cosmere.

YouTube Livestream 1 (Jan. 11, 2020)

[Valigus]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's almost certain indeed

Yolish's microkinesis is stupidly broken, I'm not sure how small the smallest moveable item is with it but Kriss talked about axis so it can't be bigger than molecule which already open a whole realm of chemistry processes we real humans can't explore. If it's the individual atoms composing the molecules it's the same thing but worse, you could extract the oxygen from water or transform a pencil lead to a big diamond. If it's the nucleons you're can transform nucleus. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if you it's quarks.

From Reverse Lashings being described as an hybrid of Adhesion and Gravitation it seems impossible the Windrunners were not supposed to have access to spiritual Adhesion.

Windrunners drawing people seems just to be that that order tend to attract leaders. Shallan transforming people didn't seems supernatural to me in any way. Also I think we shouldn't just search for Spiritual versions of the Surges but for "extended" version instead, for example some people have hypothesised the Perpendicularity creation was an hybrid of Spiritual Adhesion and some kind of conceptual Tension

The idea of making Shadesmare softer doesn't seem very spiritual to me. (also note that Perpendicularity creation being an Hybrid surge would explain why Ishar can make one)

The Shardplate thing is probably just something that was lost to memory. Also don't forget Syl was young when she bounded her human and probably doesn't know everything she should.

I absolutely don't see why you see Honour as the one codifying the forces. Codifying human interaction maybe? No you'd actually need at to add least Devotion and Odium.

And saying Aon Shao mirror is a kind of a strech. They have similar effect but absolutely not the same means to create it.

On one hand parting a Highstorm is something we've seen Syl do in WoK and that can be explained by wind manipulation but on the the other hand the fact that they don't seem to be able to use Adhesionn the surge of pressure, to create wind add credit to your theory it's been nerfed.

Even assuming Windrunners can create stormlight they'll never create enough to make a stable black hole, in fact the biggest black hole they could make would explode instantly with a power similar to what Jasnah would already be able to produce.

I'm pretty sure light creation is the Boundsmiths' Resonance (and creating Perpendicularities that leaks tons of light their hybrid Surge, I know it seems a bit redundant)

Ishar displayed the exact same kind-of-foresight ability in RoW

Time travel to the past is impossible in the Cosmere

Because it makes sense that if honor helped create the surges that honor is the binding force plus honor literally Is a god of paths and bonds dominion, sevotion snd odium make even less sense for codifying the forces.

yeah adhesion just seems so not great for windrunners and so insane for bondsmith a it can’t be not nerfed

I disagree I think if windrunners could access the spiritual realm with adhesion they would likely be able to make a much steadier stream of stormlight I do not think that they would be able to make a perpendicularity or give it to other people but I think they could pull it straight to themselves with some kind of spiritual lashing.

but if adhesion has a spiritual side then it would make sense they all do. Like time seems to be a function of gravitation snd/or progression and/or transformation which seems like it would be spiritual not physical. And the idea that people are just drawn to kaladin and other windrunners seems to me like it woudl make a Lot of sense as a weak spiritual gravitation perk.

im pretty sure the bondsmith resonance is actually the ability to synergize with other orders like when shallan and dalinar create the map.

the fact that Ishar is displaying this ability to me lends credence to the idea in my mind that kaladin either becomes a bondsmith and this is a echo from this future or that windrunners are unlocking spiritual adhesion and kaladin. Connect himself to the cognitive realm.

i also do not think having a hybrid lashing means windrunners weren’t supposed to have spiritual adhesion because unless that’s a fifth ideal thing they definitely don’t rn.

the shardplate thing I think is new because it was lent shown in the visions.

Yeah I suspected time travel to the past would be off limits but I bet windrunners could pull themselves to the future this way or manipulate fate somehow like I suggested. However I think the problem here is they would have no way of seeing what’s coming but I think like a windrunner completely unchained working sith day renarin could accomplish some stuff.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yolish's microkinesis is stupidly broken, I'm not sure how small the smallest moveable item is with it but Kriss talked about axis so it can't be bigger than molecule which already open a whole realm of chemistry processes we real humans can't explore. If it's the individual atoms composing the molecules it's the same thing but worse, you could extract the oxygen from water or transform a pencil lead to a big diamond. If it's the nucleons you're can transform nucleus. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if you it's quarks.

"Subatomic particles", but not sure if that means protons, electrons, quarks, or what.

Quote

ccstat

There IS historical precedent of accidentally setting off fission reactions in the cosmere using the magic

Now this is a story I look forward to hearing :-)

Brandon Sanderson

One of the first magic systems I designed for the cosmere was based on the manipulation of sub-atomic particles, and involved the ability to look directly at atoms and interact with them. I decided to back off on this, as it was a whopper of a magic system to get right with my limited (at the time) writing experience. It was fun, though, and is still a canonical Cosmere magic.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 19, 2016)

So uh....... yeaaaaaaaaah microkinesis is scary.

[KSub]

It will be interesting to see what happens if the bonds are weakening as we think. 

Some of the things you suggest can't be correct @Valigus . Shards don't have the power to do things like time travel and create black holes so surgebinders couldn't possibly do them as their power comes from shards. 

@mathiau Why do you think Devotion and Odium would be required to bind the surges? I think all of the shards have power to influence the magic on their respective worlds. We saw preservation and harmony do this on Scadrial. That being said I think if any shard is responsible for the power that limits surges within the cosmere it is Honor.

[Valigus]

4 hours ago, KSub said:

It will be interesting to see what happens if the bonds are weakening as we think. 

Some of the things you suggest can't be correct @Valigus . Shards don't have the power to do things like time travel and create black holes so surgebinders couldn't possibly do them as their power comes from shards. 

@mathiau Why do you think Devotion and Odium would be required to bind the surges? I think all of the shards have power to influence the magic on their respective worlds. We saw preservation and harmony do this on Scadrial. That being said I think if any shard is responsible for the power that limits surges within the cosmere it is Honor.

Shards cannot tile travel to the past because that’s impossible but time travel to the future should be, and also they probably cannot do that because they are entities that must be present in the cosmere they can’t just blip out and appear later.

I don’t see why shards would lack the power to create black holes it’s just why woudl they ever do that? Every time shards have fought there isn’t a reason to do that.

with ruin he was imprisoned and he had an easier way to do it. Black hole creation should be possible but it wouldn’t be easy.

odium also trapped doing that wouldn’t release him.

these are the only real shard vs shard conflicts we have directly seen, there has never been an instant where they would need to do so it want to. If adonalsium created everything black holes should be comparatively easy a single shard doing so would likely take immense effort but they should be able to.

plus even with expanded minds shards don’t know everything it’s possible these are abilities they never explored

Edited February 14, 2021 by Valigus

[KSub]

 

7 hours ago, Valigus said:

Shards cannot tile travel to the past because that’s impossible but time travel to the future should be, and also they probably cannot do that because they are entities that must be present in the cosmere they can’t just blip out and appear later.

I don’t see why shards would lack the power to create black holes it’s just why woudl they ever do that? Every time shards have fought there isn’t a reason to do that.

with ruin he was imprisoned and he had an easier way to do it. Black hole creation should be possible but it wouldn’t be easy.

odium also trapped doing that wouldn’t release him.

these are the only real shard vs shard conflicts we have directly seen, there has never been an instant where they would need to do so it want to. If adonalsium created everything black holes should be comparatively easy a single shard doing so would likely take immense effort but they should be able to.

plus even with expanded minds shards don’t know everything it’s possible these are abilities they never explored

You might be right about shards being able to make black holes but that seems beyond a surgebinder.

[Valigus]

10 hours ago, KSub said:

 

You might be right about shards being able to make black holes but that seems beyond a surgebinder.

I think it would spend on the size and investiture I think a windrunner pulling investiture straight from the spiritual realm may be able to create small black holes, likely they would quickly fall apart from Hawking radiation but I think it would be possible, not sure about the usefulness of this though even if they can create larger ones it’s gonna take you out too so I don’t think it would help in a fight.

[mathiau]

On 14/02/2021 at 3:33 PM, KSub said:

 

@mathiau Why do you think Devotion and Odium would be required to bind the surges? I think all of the shards have power to influence the magic on their respective worlds. We saw preservation and harmony do this on Scadrial. That being said I think if any shard is responsible for the power that limits surges within the cosmere it is Honor.

On 14/02/2021 at 2:44 AM, Valigus said:

Because it makes sense that if honor helped create the surges that honor is the binding force plus honor literally Is a god of paths and bonds dominion, sevotion snd odium make even less sense for codifying the forces.

I was unclear my excuses, when I said

On 14/02/2021 at 2:30 AM, mathiau said:

I absolutely don't see why you see Honour as the one codifying the forces. Codifying human interaction maybe? No you'd actually need at to add least Devotion and Odium.

I meant "I don't think he's the one codifying the forces. He's the God of oaths and laws so maybe he codify the interactions between people? No it still doesn't work to fully codify the interaction between people you'd need to add at least Devotion and Odium"

I don't think Devotion and Odium help codifying the forces (and honestly I should just not have put the part about codifying human interactions). To fully codify the fundamental interactions you'd need the Change Dawnshatd and the binding Dawnshard.

On 14/02/2021 at 2:44 AM, Valigus said:

but if adhesion has a spiritual side then it would make sense they all do. Like time seems to be a function of gravitation snd/or progression and/or transformation which seems like it would be spiritual not physical. And the idea that people are just drawn to kaladin and other windrunners seems to me like it woudl make a Lot of sense as a weak spiritual gravitation perk.

It would make sense but it doesn't mean it's true. And honestly Navani making wounds that Honourblades cannot heal seems a lot like Cognitive Tension, making how Moash see himself more malleable so that new wounds are as ingrained in his being as Nale's birthmark

Quote

m pretty sure the bondsmith resonance is actually the ability to synergize with other orders like when shallan and dalinar create the map.

It could be indeed.

Quote

i also do not think having a hybrid lashing means windrunners weren’t supposed to have spiritual adhesion because unless that’s a fifth ideal thing they definitely don’t rn.

I meant that the Reverse Lashing aren't explainable as a fusion of Physical Adhesion and Gravitation but have to be a fusion of Spiritual Adhesion and Gravitation which mean it's impossible Windrunner were not supposed to have Spiritual Adhesion (=they were supposed to have it)

Quote

the shardplate thing I think is new because it was lent shown in the visions.

If I recall correctly, the only vision where it could have had sense for it to happen is the one where Dalinar get transported by Lashings, and even in that one it's probably just far more comfortable to get lashed that to get ferried around by the Shardplate.

But then again Jasnah doesn't seems to have this ability so there's probably something going there.

Quote

Yeah I suspected time travel to the past would be off limits but I bet windrunners could pull themselves to the future this way or manipulate fate somehow like I suggested. However I think the problem here is they would have no way of seeing what’s coming but I think like a windrunner completely unchained working sith day renarin could accomplish some stuff.

Fate manipulation would be a temporal effect which feels more like Voidbinding than Surgebinding, like Renarin's perfected self vision with Regrow and alternate self vision with Illumination

Wait a minute, Adhesion's presence guessing looks like a temporal effect too

Then we have that WoB

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Feruchemy is the "balance" between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a "balance" magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. 

Argent (paraphrased)

Like Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

It's likely Cultivation and Honour's balance system is the Surges, but it would makes the concept of Pure Surge weird, especially considering that one of the pure Surges seems to be split in two. We know there's an Odium version of Adhesion, maybe there's also a Cultivation version? If yes then there should be a Honour version of Regrowth, and Truthwatchers would probably be using it. That should mean Truthwatchers don't have access to Growth

Whatever the deal with the pure Surges is, a balance system between Odium and the other Shards should be developing in Roshar, possibly by the nature of the Surges changing to become more similar to the Voids, and therefore adding them temporal effects

On 14/02/2021 at 7:37 PM, Valigus said:

odium also trapped doing that wouldn’t release him.

Destroying the Rohsaran system would probably release him, but I'm not sure whether throwing a black hole into the sun would count as destroying it. And anyway: Cultivation.

[Forms of mind]

dude do you think stormlight itself is a restriction on the knights radiant because it is a catalyst?

[Valigus]

10 hours ago, mathiau said:

I was unclear my excuses, when I said

I meant "I don't think he's the one codifying the forces. He's the God of oaths and laws so maybe he codify the interactions between people? No it still doesn't work to fully codify the interaction between people you'd need to add at least Devotion and Odium"

I don't think Devotion and Odium help codifying the forces (and honestly I should just not have put the part about codifying human interactions). To fully codify the fundamental interactions you'd need the Change Dawnshatd and the binding Dawnshard.

It would make sense but it doesn't mean it's true. And honestly Navani making wounds that Honourblades cannot heal seems a lot like Cognitive Tension, making how Moash see himself more malleable so that new wounds are as ingrained in his being as Nale's birthmark

It could be indeed.

I meant that the Reverse Lashing aren't explainable as a fusion of Physical Adhesion and Gravitation but have to be a fusion of Spiritual Adhesion and Gravitation which mean it's impossible Windrunner were not supposed to have Spiritual Adhesion (=they were supposed to have it)

If I recall correctly, the only vision where it could have had sense for it to happen is the one where Dalinar get transported by Lashings, and even in that one it's probably just far more comfortable to get lashed that to get ferried around by the Shardplate.

But then again Jasnah doesn't seems to have this ability so there's probably something going there.

Fate manipulation would be a temporal effect which feels more like Voidbinding than Surgebinding, like Renarin's perfected self vision with Regrow and alternate self vision with Illumination

Wait a minute, Adhesion's presence guessing looks like a temporal effect too

Then we have that WoB

It's likely Cultivation and Honour's balance system is the Surges, but it would makes the concept of Pure Surge weird, especially considering that one of the pure Surges seems to be split in two. We know there's an Odium version of Adhesion, maybe there's also a Cultivation version? If yes then there should be a Honour version of Regrowth, and Truthwatchers would probably be using it. That should mean Truthwatchers don't have access to Growth

Whatever the deal with the pure Surges is, a balance system between Odium and the other Shards should be developing in Roshar, possibly by the nature of the Surges changing to become more similar to the Voids, and therefore adding them temporal effects

Destroying the Rohsaran system would probably release him, but I'm not sure whether throwing a black hole into the sun would count as destroying it. And anyway: Cultivation.

This is fair but it seems likely to me that the bind dawnshard and change dawnshard are both on roshar and were both held by honor and cultivation respectively which I think I talked about in one of my other theories.

I agree they have some spiritual powers but it’s suepr limited like their leadership thing and the squires is spiritual but it’s not like bondmsitsh who have full acess.

for the vision I don’t think they had it because it was a windrunner defending civilians some of which I believe died, if he could or knew how to make the shardplate do what kaladin did he probably would have.

Yeah, it probably wouldn’t be permanent maybe they could draw visions to people who can see them?

I don’t think there is an odium version of adhesion I think voidbinding is what renarin does and the bondsmith void order would have adhesion from honor and then tension from odium. I also bet that the the night heat her doesn’t give adhesion but the old magic and the ability to give boons and curses and stuff.

yeah I think a black hole would most definitely open him up to a strike from cultivation I also suspect of destroying the system were an option he would have tried. Another thing I think is worth noting he probably isn’t allowed to. I find it hard to imagine that creating black holes and stuff wouldn’t be covered by whatever agreement binds the shards.

[Dunkum]

On 2/13/2021 at 3:54 PM, Valigus said:

1. what restrictions

I mean this whole discussion is missing the single most obvious restriction in place: every single KR is bound by their oaths.  if they attempt to do something counter to those oaths their powers start failing, as we saw with Kaladin in WoR.

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Valigus said:

for the vision I don’t think they had it because it was a windrunner defending civilians some of which I believe died, if he could or knew how to make the shardplate do what kaladin did he probably would have.

I'll have to do a reread, I don't really remember that one

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I don’t think there is an odium version of adhesion I think voidbinding is what renarin does and the bondsmith void order would have adhesion from honor and then tension from odium. I also bet that the the night heat her doesn’t give adhesion but the old magic and the ability to give boons and curses and stuff.

The Nightwatcher's Boundsmith being able to give boons and cruse is almost a given indeed, but I think it will be their equivalent of Dalinar riding the storm or Navani controling the tower instead of something replacing Adhesion

The Voidbinding chart has a symbol for Adhesion and it's more different for the sugebinding version than for most other Surges so I think Odium has he's version of that Surge. In SA5 we should see people bounded to sapient Enlightened Windsprens so it should give us the answer

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yeah I think a black hole would most definitely open him up to a strike from cultivation I also suspect of destroying the system were an option he would have tried. Another thing I think is worth noting he probably isn’t allowed to. I find it hard to imagine that creating black holes and stuff wouldn’t be covered by whatever agreement binds the shards.

I didn't mean as a strike from Cultivation but more like what happened on Scadrial with Ruin and Vin stopping the other when they tried to do something. But yes, not making black holes is probably in the agreement.

[Valigus]

21 hours ago, mathiau said:

I'll have to do a reread, I don't really remember that one

The Nightwatcher's Boundsmith being able to give boons and cruse is almost a given indeed, but I think it will be their equivalent of Dalinar riding the storm or Navani controling the tower instead of something replacing Adhesion

The Voidbinding chart has a symbol for Adhesion and it's more different for the sugebinding version than for most other Surges so I think Odium has he's version of that Surge. In SA5 we should see people bounded to sapient Enlightened Windsprens so it should give us the answer

I didn't mean as a strike from Cultivation but more like what happened on Scadrial with Ruin and Vin stopping the other when they tried to do something. But yes, not making black holes is probably in the agreement.

Navani had also not demonstrated many of dalinars abilities yet, though she is more likely then the night watcher, I just don’t think it makes sense the nightwatcher  has adhesion I mean raboniel and the fused know the nightwatcher and definitely know how it’s(it or her?) bondsmith works so I think that it’s unlikely they would say “adhesion is only an honor thing” if the nightwatcher has it, if the nightwatcher die shave it I think it’s because of the oaths themselves being constructs created by honor maybe.

also as to the oaths being restrictions I think that surgebinding on roshar a this stronger because of the oaths if that makes sense, because we have seen hoid use yolish light weaving and it is very much weaker than rosharan Lightweaving I suspect that if the restrictions fall away completely rosharan surgebinders will best out any other surgebinder without a similar restriction as long as they are within their oaths. For example I doubt unbound gravitation somewhere else could create a small singularity but rosharan gravitation maybe could buy they may never be able to because it would violate their oaths.

[mathiau]

18 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Navani had also not demonstrated many of dalinars abilities yet, though she is more likely then the night watcher, I just don’t think it makes sense the nightwatcher  has adhesion I mean raboniel and the fused know the nightwatcher and definitely know how it’s(it or her?) bondsmith works so I think that it’s unlikely they would say “adhesion is only an honor thing” if the nightwatcher has it, if the nightwatcher die shave it I think it’s because of the oaths themselves being constructs created by honor maybe.

Navini has demonstrated light creation, which you had associated Adhesion. And Melishi could see the blue lines.

The Fused don't have Boundsmiths, they believe Honour and Cultivation created Gravity, and are Surgebinders so I wouldn't expect them to know anything about the Void of Adhesion. Honestly I think Odium either just lied or created the Fused before Honour created Adhesion, if anything we've said about unbound Adhesion is true he would have had reasons to fear what an Adhesion Fused could have done if they rebelled.

Also the Nightwatcher is a she, not an it.

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also as to the oaths being restrictions I think that surgebinding on roshar a this stronger because of the oaths if that makes sense, because we have seen hoid use yolish light weaving and it is very much weaker than rosharan Lightweaving I suspect that if the restrictions fall away completely rosharan surgebinders will best out any other surgebinder without a similar restriction as long as they are within their oaths. For example I doubt unbound gravitation somewhere else could create a small singularity but rosharan gravitation maybe could buy they may never be able to because it would violate their oaths.

I think Yolish lightweaving is confirmed to be weaker on Roshar than normal, for some reason. On the other hand it's true that the Nahel Bound gave weaker powers before the oaths where created

[LewsTherinTelescope]

45 minutes ago, Valigus said:

because we have seen hoid use yolish light weaving and it is very much weaker than rosharan Lightweaving

Could be a result of the Shattering, and the proceeding unInvestment of the planet as the Shards left (admittedly, I don't think we know for certain that none remained behind, but whichever Shard the magic system was assigned to may have left).

[StanLemon]

One important thing is that Shards don't create the magic systems. They can tweak it but they don't out and out create it. Meaning Adhesion is just as natural as any other Surge. And frankly the argument from the Fused that it is wholly of Honor and not a part of the natural world doesn't make any sense either as we know Connection is a natural aspect of the Cosmere and its physical aspects include pressure and vacuum.

[Dunkum]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

One important thing is that Shards don't create the magic systems. They can tweak it but they don't out and out create it. Meaning Adhesion is just as natural as any other Surge. And frankly the argument from the Fused that it is wholly of Honor and not a part of the natural world doesn't make any sense either as we know Connection is a natural aspect of the Cosmere and its physical aspects include pressure and vacuum.

th shards don't create the systems, but the system is at least part determined by the shard.  Honor likely didn't create the adhesion surge, but that surge might only be available because it is Honor's investiture in the system - that is it might be a naturlly occuring surge that results from Honor specifically investing in Roshar.

[Valigus]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Navini has demonstrated light creation, which you had associated Adhesion. And Melishi could see the blue lines.

The Fused don't have Boundsmiths, they believe Honour and Cultivation created Gravity, and are Surgebinders so I wouldn't expect them to know anything about the Void of Adhesion. Honestly I think Odium either just lied or created the Fused before Honour created Adhesion, if anything we've said about unbound Adhesion is true he would have had reasons to fear what an Adhesion Fused could have done if they rebelled.

Also the Nightwatcher is a she, not an it.

I think Yolish lightweaving is confirmed to be weaker on Roshar than normal, for some reason. On the other hand it's true that the Nahel Bound gave weaker powers before the oaths where created

But the sibling is of both so it should have adhesion, but they would still know about the nightwatcher and if they might watcher had adhesion they wouldn’t say it’s only of honor I think. 
 

ok the night watcher is weird so wasn’t sure.

yeah I think and this is supported by brained general opinion on magic that the limitations are suepr important that the more limited the stronger it is when the limitations aren’t affecting it.

the fused have a lot of insight so until they are directly contradicted I’d believe them, they aren’t super reliable but better then nothing.

i think adhesion only exists in shards that come from the bind dawnshard which is what I call the one that’s different from the others, which I think grants bondsmithing powers is on roshar or was and was probably held by tanavast. The others in this category are probably devotion and dominion so they probably would be able to grant adhesion, but I doubt cultivation band odium are from this.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Valigus

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

th shards don't create the systems, but the system is at least part determined by the shard.  Honor likely didn't create the adhesion surge, but that surge might only be available because it is Honor's investiture in the system - that is it might be a naturlly occuring surge that results from Honor specifically investing in Roshar.

So magic systems form because of interactions of Shards and the system itself. As has been pointed out, there is a Void version of Adhesion. This speaks to me that Surges are to Roshar as metals are to Scadrial. Universal to all magic systems on Roshar but utilize different expressions. I find it much easier to believe Odium lied to them

[mathiau]

29 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But the sibling is of both so it should have adhesion, but they would still know about the nightwatcher and if they might watcher had adhesion they wouldn’t say it’s only of honor I think.

I was just answering to you saying Navani had not shown she had Dalinar's power. Even if the Nightwatcher does gives Adhesion the Fused would say Adhesion is only of Honour because the very concept of Knight Radiants is of Honour, and they might be right.

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ok the night watcher is weird so wasn’t sure.

That she is

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the fused have a lot of insight so until they are directly contradicted I’d believe them, they aren’t super reliable but better then nothing.

They are directly contradicted by the Voidbinding chart 

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i think adhesion only exists in shards that come from the bind dawnshard which is what I call the one that’s different from the others, which I think grants bondsmithing powers is on roshar or was and was probably held by tanavast. The others in this category are probably devotion and dominion so they probably would be able to grant adhesion, but I doubt cultivation band odium are from this.

Possible.

By the way the Shard the most likely to be the fourth member of the binding Dawnshard's quadrant is Odium.

[Valigus]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

I was just answering to you saying Navani had not shown she had Dalinar's power. Even if the Nightwatcher does gives Adhesion the Fused would say Adhesion is only of Honour because the very concept of Knight Radiants is of Honour, and they might be right.

That she is

They are directly contradicted by the Voidbinding chart 

Possible.

By the way the Shard the most likely to be the fourth member of the binding Dawnshard's quadrant is Odium.

But how do we know the voidbinding chart is right nobody has explored it so unless it’s from the future idk it’s also possible that whateve gives that has some amount of honor in it.

why would you say it’s likely odium, I can see the reason for why people would say it’s odium but I think it may be one we don’t know yet, odium has largely seemed to be largely more divisive then uniting. So I don’t think it is based on what we have seen. Though it’s very possible maybe even likely that I’m wrong.

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

But how do we know the voidbinding chart is right nobody has explored it so unless it’s from the future idk it’s also possible that whateve gives that has some amount of honor in it.

It has actually been explored before

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TheFoxQR (paraphrased)

Is there temporal symmetry in between the Surge-binding and void-binding charts, from the front and back covers of The Way of Kings? As in, Surgebinding is a re-emerging system of the past, vs Voidbinding being a newly emerging system that will fully exist in the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can assume that Voidbinding has not been fully explored, but that parts of it have been looked into in the past. So I wouldn't say that temporal symmetry fully holds.

General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 3, 2019)

And "does Adhesion exists" would be among the first thing to test.

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why would you say it’s likely odium, I can see the reason for why people would say it’s odium but I think it may be one we don’t know yet, odium has largely seemed to be largely more divisive then uniting. So I don’t think it is based on what we have seen. Though it’s very possible maybe even likely that I’m wrong.

I'm a bit confused here, in the group of four thread you seemed to agree with my assessment that Odium was an aspect of Unite

We've seen Odium divisive because he's using divide and conquer, Dominon would do the same if they thought it would be useful