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Thoughts about Zahel


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49 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Yes, we should not assume Shards that appears to be doing nothing are actually doing nothing, Cultivation and Endowment's Intents seems more made to give the other the ability to solve an issue than to directly solve that issue, and with this kind of power people assuming you're not interfering is a huge advantage

That's a good point.

But doesn't Endowment say as much in the letters. And doesn't Harmony say the same thing about her? That is what I'm going off. Although if Cultivation requested 'something' from Endowment she might be willing to do 'something then not get involved any further.

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I wouldn't trust both Harmony's knowledge and Endowment herself, if her actions don't support it. Of course, Cultivation and Endowment may have planned nothing together - the text doesn't offer us any leads to that effect. However, it seems awfully convenient that a Vessel-killing weapon just happens to be created on Endowment's world after a supposed visit to Roshar by its creators and then this weapon somehow ends up in Cultivation's hands when one of those creators returns to Roshar. Okay, not jumping to conclusions, but...

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3 hours ago, KSub said:

That's a good point.

But doesn't Endowment say as much in the letters. And doesn't Harmony say the same thing about her? That is what I'm going off. Although if Cultivation requested 'something' from Endowment she might be willing to do 'something then not get involved any further.

Nightblood travelling to Roshar is something that happened long before the Letters and Harmony contacting them so she could consider she's done her job and doesn't need to do a thing until Odium shows actually signs risking getting out his prison.

3 minutes ago, Jorr said:

I wouldn't trust both Harmony's knowledge and Endowment herself, if her actions don't support it. Of course, Cultivation and Endowment may have planned nothing together - the text doesn't offer us any leads to that effect. However, it seems awfully convenient that a Vessel-killing weapon just happens to be created on Endowment's world after a supposed visit to Roshar by its creators and then this weapon somehow ends up in Cultivation's hands when one of those creators returns to Roshar. Okay, not jumping to conclusions, but...

Not to mention Azure and the only other known weapon able to kill a Fused

Edited by mathiau
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7 hours ago, KSub said:

That's a good point.

But doesn't Endowment say as much in the letters. And doesn't Harmony say the same thing about her? That is what I'm going off. Although if Cultivation requested 'something' from Endowment she might be willing to do 'something then not get involved any further.

I feel like this is Endowments position at the time of the letters is reactionary and waiting for something else to happen (assuming these are written during the events of Stormlight 1-5) , which would mean Nightblood and his involvement on Roshar isn't the work of Edgli's plans. This is how I take read it at least initially.

 

Once again I assumed that based on Harmony's writings about trying to groom an Avatar and Hoid wondering through His lands, that these are written during the events of Stormlight, but depending on the wishywashy timeline between The Catacendre, Warbreaker events, and the beginning of Stormlight, there could be room for Endowment to maneuver against Odium. That being said I still think she is in a reactionary state waiting to see what Odium does or if he will be contained to Roshar.

 

3 hours ago, Jorr said:

I wouldn't trust both Harmony's knowledge and Endowment herself, if her actions don't support it. Of course, Cultivation and Endowment may have planned nothing together - the text doesn't offer us any leads to that effect. However, it seems awfully convenient that a Vessel-killing weapon just happens to be created on Endowment's world after a supposed visit to Roshar by its creators and then this weapon somehow ends up in Cultivation's hands when one of those creators returns to Roshar. Okay, not jumping to conclusions, but...

I can almost see this being solely Cultivation's plan to exploit a tool created with power Endowment bestowed upon the Returned.

I think like most people I assumed Cultivation's power to be something akin to progression and regrowth, plant and organic life, nature, all that business. But in the context of say, forming a grand plan that requires massive scale and small "seeds" to sow and reap at opportune times, that is such a unique usage that most of us as readers as well as in world characters overlook I would imagine.

However IF Endowment is actively trying to engage the situation, I think using Vivenna, Vasher, and Nightblood would be excellent, need those POV's ASAP.

Edited by AvatarofOdium
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I feel people are conflating a couple things here. Just because Endowment does not want to help Hoid does not necessarily mean she does not want to be involved in broader Cosmere matters. It just means that she hates Hoid and does not want to support his cause. Whatever that might be. 

As far as what she wants to do? It's hard to say. She likes and supports the original agreement the Vessels made when they took up the pieces of the Shards and does not care if some of the Vessels that violated (seemingly) that agreement get killed. 

So, she might want Odium to leave the Roshar system... but wouldn't want him gunning her down. Her ponderances on future possibilities may have led her to believe that Awakening the Five Scholars would be the best way of fulfilling the agreement of One World, One Shard (trademark pending) by getting Honor killed and somehow changing Odium's drive and purpose. 

Of course, all the above is based on very limited information. 

And with an infinite mind, time and expanded consciousness, what seems like a rational, conservative decision to a Shard would appear highly risky to a reader of fantasy novels :P

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2 hours ago, Orlionra said:

I feel people are conflating a couple things here. Just because Endowment does not want to help Hoid does not necessarily mean she does not want to be involved in broader Cosmere matters. It just means that she hates Hoid and does not want to support his cause. Whatever that might be.

There is a WoB if I remember correctly, that says she isn't overly interested in the larger Cosmere.

Edited by Frustration
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6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There is a WoB if I remember correctly, that says she isn't overly interested in the larger Cosmere.

Well yes and no, she has no plan for the Cosmere but it doesn't mean she is not interested in keeping things dangerous to her part of the Cosmere at bay

Quote

Questioner

What is Endowment’s long term plan?  Like just even in general, is she just like “Keep Nalthis safe” like Sazed is or is she like, does she have a plan for...

Brandon Sanderson

Nooo, um...

Questioner

You don’t have to tell me but like, does she have a plan that involves the cosmere...

Brandon Sanderson

Not really.

Questioner

...or is it just to stay on...

Brandon Sanderson

She’s more focused on her thing.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)
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So she doesn't have a plan for the Cosmere but she's focused on doing her thing whatever that means.

So she could be focused on Nalthis because Brandon's first response is ambiguous or she could have plans off Nalthis but not for the whole of the Cosmere.

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9 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Vivenna supposedly have Nightblood at some point? I can't remember that happening in Warbreaker, but doesn't NB mention that she once held them?

That could be referencing the brief moment she had NB in Warbreaker...

Or something in Warbreaker's unwritten sequel! *le gasp!*

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7 minutes ago, Orlionra said:

That could be referencing the brief moment she had NB in Warbreaker...

Ah so she DID hold them in Warbreaker. Apparently I retained nothing from that book. 

8 minutes ago, Orlionra said:

Or something in Warbreaker's unwritten sequel! *le gasp!*

I sure hope this eventually comes to fruition. Just think of all the hilarious shenanigans (evil killing) the 3 of them could get up to, before the inevitable falling out. Totally diverging, but it sure would have been great to have gotten a glimpse into whatever Azure has gotten herself into. She should have had an interlude!

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26 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

I sure hope this eventually comes to fruition. Just think of all the hilarious shenanigans (evil killing) the 3 of them could get up to, before the inevitable falling out. Totally diverging, but it sure would have been great to have gotten a glimpse into whatever Azure has gotten herself into. She should have had an interlude!

I am under the impression that they will both have bigger roles in the second five book sequence... which...yay? I guess? 

So a bit of a ways off, perhaps... since we got one Stormlight book, two Elantris sequels and a Mistborn trilogy AT LEAST before we get there! 

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10 hours ago, Orlionra said:

I am under the impression that they will both have bigger roles in the second five book sequence... which...yay? I guess? 

So a bit of a ways off, perhaps... since we got one Stormlight book, two Elantris sequels and a Mistborn trilogy AT LEAST before we get there! 

Nowhere, The Lost Metal, and the last Skyward book too.

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10 hours ago, Orlionra said:

I am under the impression that they will both have bigger roles in the second five book sequence... which...yay? I guess? 

So a bit of a ways off, perhaps... since we got one Stormlight book, two Elantris sequels and a Mistborn trilogy AT LEAST before we get there! 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Nowhere, The Lost Metal, and the last Skyward book too.

From the last State of the Sanderson, he intent to do TLM, the Horneater novela, the two last Skyward book, Era 3 and probably a novella on another world before Stormlight 5. Maybe Rithmatist 2 when he needs a break in the middle of Era 3

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On 2/14/2021 at 7:40 PM, Frustration said:
  1. Not really, that isn't garunteed
  2. We don't know what Cultivation wants, this could be exactly what she wanted
  3. Cultivation sucessfully manipulated the last Odium, why would she be unable to manipulate the new one

Those last two points seem critical to me... When people agree with Taravangian's POV that Cultivation "has no idea what she's done" in engineering his Ascenion to Odium, I always have to wonder why.

I mean, she's always been three steps ahead in everything and everyone she's manipulated: Rayse/Odium, Taravangian, Dalinar, possibly Szeth, possibly Renarin, possibly Sja-Anat... And the WAY that she engineered Taravangian's becoming Odium relied entirely on using his arrogance and calculating nature to manipulate him. She understood him to the core - after all, she IS a goddess, one who's seen many human lives already (and per WoB, she was a dragon before Ascending, so maybe even longer a life than most Vessels before that!).

Cultivation successfully engineered the downfall of someone who'd held the Shard of Odium for millenia, specifically to have it not simply released but to transition it to Taravangian; do you really think she had no thought or no plan for what would happen after that, or "no idea" what kind of Odium Taravangian would make?

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13 hours ago, PleatherDuster said:

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Vivenna supposedly have Nightblood at some point? I can't remember that happening in Warbreaker, but doesn't NB mention that she once held them?

In Oathbringer, NB says to Szeth after the first time he wielded it to destroy the corrupt prison-running nobleman to swear the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers, You know, Vivenna never drew me even once? She carried me for a long time, too. Maybe a couple of days even? (Not that NB has any sense of time passing.)

And then later at Thaylen Fields, Well, nobody owns me. Vivenna told me. I'm my own sword.

That's the only oblique reference I can remember to Vivenna carrying NB and for how long.

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On 2/15/2021 at 0:17 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Endowment said that if Rayse became a problem he would be dealt with.

...

Looks like she dealt with him.

On 2/15/2021 at 7:18 AM, mathiau said:

Yes, we should not assume Shards that appears to be doing nothing are actually doing nothing, Cultivation and Endowment's Intents seems more made to give the other the ability to solve an issue than to directly solve that issue, and with this kind of power people assuming you're not interfering is a huge advantage

Ahhh, these are good observations... As Nightblood was created with Endowment's Investiture and magic system... The two of them could well have been in cahoots.

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5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Well, the common term is ‘tinfoil hat’. But here in the Cosmere aluminum is far more sensible.

Tinfoil is made of aluminium so I really don't know why these hat are not already called aluminium hats

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, tin foil is made of tin: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil

It was the precursor to aluminum foil. Some people still mistakenly refer to aluminum foil by the term.

Thanks I didn't know :)

Though apparently, Tinfoil hats are made out of aluminium foil https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat :facepalm:

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12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Thanks I didn't know :)

Though apparently, Tinfoil hats are made out of aluminium foil https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat :facepalm:

Yeah... confusing... Apparently the mis-naming is due to the aforementioned “aluminum foil is called tinfoil” confusion. I knew tinfoil was real, so I thought the hats must have been made from it originally. Turns out no...

Still, Scadrians do actually use the right term and I suspect most Cosmerians would too, so the original point stands.

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