Thoughts about Zahel

[AvatarofOdium]

So this morning I was thinking about how Nightblood got into the hands of Nale, and based on Vashers placement in book 1 I am wondering if he (depending on how long he's been back on Roshar) was originally working with or around Gavilar and The Sons of Honor? We know he's there because of the (probably moralistic) easy access to investiture, what if he originally had his sights set on getting that investiture off world like the rest, and was betrayed or disillusioned with the goal (we know $$ and power seem to be a big motivator for these groups), and that is how he and Nightblood split and he went into hiding(?) within the Ardentia??

Edited February 13, 2021 by AvatarofOdium

[KSub]

4 hours ago, AvatarofOdium said:

So this morning I was thinking about how Nightblood got into the hands of Nale, and based on Vashers placement in book 1 I am wondering if he (depending on how long he's been back on Roshar) was originally working with or around Gavilar and The Sons of Honor? We know he's there because of the (probably moralistic) easy access to investiture, what if he originally had his sights set on getting that investiture off world like the rest, and was betrayed or disillusioned with the goal (we know $$ and power seem to be a big motivator for these groups), and that is how he and Nightblood split and he went into hiding(?) within the Ardentia??

Nice theory. 

After I realized just how reprehensible the Nalthian magic system is I never questioned why Zahel was on Roshar. And Nightblood is clearly a burden he didn't want. 

I'm curious if Zahel has given any indications that he had other plans.

[Orlion Blight]

Apparently, he was "doing other stuff" during the siege of Urithiru, but Brandon decided not to include what for authorial reasons. 

I was under the impression that he had been to Roshar before, which was part inspiration to create Nightblood. Though whatever he is up to now, it does not seem to have anything to do with retrieving Nightblood.

[AvatarofOdium]

38 minutes ago, KSub said:

After I realized just how reprehensible the Nalthian magic system is I never questioned why Zahel was on Roshar. And Nightblood is clearly a burden he didn't want.

Yeah I definitely don't think he was the most upset to be rid of the sword, other than knowing someone else has him. 

 

27 minutes ago, Orlionra said:

Apparently, he was "doing other stuff" during the siege of Urithiru, but Brandon decided not to include what for authorial reasons. 

I was under the impression that he had been to Roshar before, which was part inspiration to create Nightblood. Though whatever he is up to now, it does not seem to have anything to do with retrieving Nightblood.

So my rough timeline for Vasher  based on this theory I have would be

1. After returning and becoming cosmere aware he and Shashara are able to world hop, they go to Roshar and learn of spren blades

2. They return to Nalthis and using that knowledge and their own magic system, create NB

3. Many-war -> Post-warbreaker events happen

4. He and Viv go back to Roshar for investiture reasons and takes NB with him

5. During either his work WITH the Sons of Honor, or work parallel with them he parts ways with NB, who ends up in Nale's hands

As I'm typing this I wonder if the fact that Vash as a cognative shadow is able to leave his shardworld makes him a target from these groups, which is the reason for his hiding.

6. He goes into the Ardentia as swordmaster to lay relatively low while still being keyed in with important political figures

7. Events of RoW where yeah apparently he was off on his own doing we can only guess

 

And then in the future according to this my guess would be we have some convergence on these groups (Knights Radiant, Odiums Forces, Ghostbloods, Vash and Viv etc) figuring out this issue with getting investiture off world and resolving the True Desolation. Maybe not so completely with a nice bow on it, but something like that.

[Orlion Blight]

5 minutes ago, AvatarofOdium said:

So my rough timeline for Vasher  based on this theory I have would be

1. After returning and becoming cosmere aware he and Shashara are able to world hop, they go to Roshar and learn of spren blades

2. They return to Nalthis and using that knowledge and their own magic system, create NB

3. Many-war -> Post-warbreaker events happen

4. He and Viv go back to Roshar for investiture reasons and takes NB with him

5. During either his work WITH the Sons of Honor, or work parallel with them he parts ways with NB, who ends up in Nale's hands

As I'm typing this I wonder if the fact that Vash as a cognative shadow is able to leave his shardworld makes him a target from these groups, which is the reason for his hiding.

6. He goes into the Ardentia as swordmaster to lay relatively low while still being keyed in with important political figures

7. Events of RoW where yeah apparently he was off on his own doing we can only guess

 

And then in the future according to this my guess would be we have some convergence on these groups (Knights Radiant, Odiums Forces, Ghostbloods, Vash and Viv etc) figuring out this issue with getting investiture off world and resolving the True Desolation. Maybe not so completely with a nice bow on it, but something like that.

I think that's the best timeline we can hope to have right now.

I imagine Vasher would be of MASSIVE interest to Kelsier, as he is also essentially a cognitive shadow and wants to be able to world-hop. I could see Vasher deciding that a worldhopping Kelsier was far more dangerous than giving Nightblood to a crazy Herald obsessed with justice. Relinquishing Nightblood could be part of his strategy to hide from the Ghostbloods.

[TheSprengineer]

Does anyone think Vasher may have given Nightblood to Nale directly? He’s been on Roshar for a while now, considering Adolin has known him for years when he’s first introduced.

[Kingsdaughter613]

50 minutes ago, Orlionra said:

I think that's the best timeline we can hope to have right now.

I imagine Vasher would be of MASSIVE interest to Kelsier, as he is also essentially a cognitive shadow and wants to be able to world-hop. I could see Vasher deciding that a worldhopping Kelsier was far more dangerous than giving Nightblood to a crazy Herald obsessed with justice. Relinquishing Nightblood could be part of his strategy to hide from the Ghostbloods.

The Nightwatcher had it before Nale though...

[Orlion Blight]

59 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Nightwatcher had it before Nale though...

I must of missed that. 

[AvatarofOdium]

51 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Nightwatcher had it before Nale though...

Wow holy frijole I completely forgot about The Nightwatcher offering NB to Dalinar.......

Okay so that might kill my theory, as the connection between Vasher, Nale, and the Sons makes more sense without adding The Nightwatcher or Cultivation in the mix.

I wonder if this was part of Cultivation's plans against Rayse... If so, was it a trade? and what would Vasher get in return? Access to lifelight perhaps?

[Bejarden]

The question really is: why would vasher give the most powerful weapon in the cosmere to a shard/bondsmith spren 

or was nightblood stolen...

[KSub]

Maybe Cultivation required Vasher to turn it over before he was allowed to come to Roshar.

Did you pack your own bags? Do you have any sentient weapons or fluids in excess of three ounces? Do you have anything to declare? Welcome to Roshar.

[Jorr]

It seems pretty obvious to me that Vasher basically served as a way for Endowment to bring about the creation of Nightblood and then hand it over to Cultuvation. It seems to have always been the plan they came up with. I wouldnt be surprised if Zahel showed up on Roshar just about the time Taravangian went to the Valley and Cultivation was able to create her pawn.

[Bejarden]

And then cultivation gave it to...! The crazy herald

[Kingsdaughter613]

46 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

And then cultivation gave it to...! The crazy herald

Who gave it to the not exactly sane assassin. Which somehow resulted in the sword ending up exactly where it needed to be...

Why do Shardic plans seem to revolve on incredibly unlikely probabilities?

[Kyn]

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Why do Shardic plans seem to revolve on incredibly unlikely probabilities?

Maybe that’s the only real entertainment they get.

Less glibly though, I imagine it’s something about the way certain entities see the future. Like, if you’ve viewed enough possibilities all converge on a specific event, the probability sufficiently approaches one. Assuming they have that degree of faith in their abilities.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Maybe that’s the only real entertainment they get.

Less glibly though, I imagine it’s something about the way certain entities see the future. Like, if you’ve viewed enough possibilities all converge on a specific event, the probability sufficiently approaches one. Assuming they have that degree of faith in their abilities.

Considering that Leras’ plans ended up hinging  on a Cognitive Shadow stealing a specific device from a group of worldhoppers... I have my doubts about the sense of Shards. Then again, maybe that’s why it worked. No one could have anticipated a plan quite that insane!

[Bejarden]

Still why make the most powerful weapon ever created go to the hands of an unhinged assassin 

I’m sure if cultivation really wanted to she could have found someone slightly more sane

also renarin makes it impossible to See

Edited February 14, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Kyn]

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Still why make the most powerful weapon ever created go to the hands of an unhinged assassin 

I’m sure if cultivation really wanted to she could have found someone slightly more sane

also renarin makes it impossible to See

I’m pretty sure the Shardbearers aren’t all that reasonable, themselves, given that the Shards gain increasing influence over time. They’re kind of driven. So, no idea why she made the decisions she did, or how much of it might have been out of sheer need to cultivate as opposed to craftiness.

But Renarin likely wasn’t an issue where Szeth was concerned until after Szeth had Nightblood (and was near the Kholins).

…Also, if Odium and Cultivation both had some degree of futuresight, presumably she’s used to taking into account that sort of interference. Unless I’ve missed something, and Renarin’s corrupted-spren abilities only mess with what Odium’s powers reveal.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Who gave it to the not exactly sane assassin. Which somehow resulted in the sword ending up exactly where it needed to be...

Why do Shardic plans seem to revolve on incredibly unlikely probabilities?

Well she said she had severl plans like that, if you have a million one in a million plans, statistically speaking one of them will work.

[mathiau]

On 13/02/2021 at 7:54 PM, AvatarofOdium said:

So this morning I was thinking about how Nightblood got into the hands of Nale, and based on Vashers placement in book 1 I am wondering if he (depending on how long he's been back on Roshar) was originally working with or around Gavilar and The Sons of Honor? We know he's there because of the (probably moralistic) easy access to investiture, what if he originally had his sights set on getting that investiture off world like the rest, and was betrayed or disillusioned with the goal (we know $$ and power seem to be a big motivator for these groups), and that is how he and Nightblood split and he went into hiding(?) within the Ardentia??

Some people have theorised Galivar's light warping Navani observe in WoR could be suppresed breath, if it is it'd make sense the Sons have a master Awakener among them

23 hours ago, AvatarofOdium said:

2. They return to Nalthis and using that knowledge and their own magic system, create NB

3. Many-war -> Post-warbreaker events happen

It's nothing really going against your theory buy NB was created during the Manywar and not before

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well she said she had severl plans like that, if you have a million one in a million plans, statistically speaking one of them will work.

And one is bound to backfire spectacularly, which seems to be about happen by the way

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

And one is bound to backfire spectacularly, which seems to be about happen by the way

1. Not really, that isn't garunteed
2. We don't know what Cultivation wants, this could be exactly what she wanted
3. Cultivation sucessfully manipulated the last Odium, why would she be unable to manipulate the new one

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Not really, that isn't garunteed
2. We don't know what Cultivation wants, this could be exactly what she wanted
3. Cultivation sucessfully manipulated the last Odium, why would she be unable to manipulate the new one

fair points

[KSub]

12 hours ago, Jorr said:

It seems pretty obvious to me that Vasher basically served as a way for Endowment to bring about the creation of Nightblood and then hand it over to Cultuvation. It seems to have always been the plan they came up with. I wouldnt be surprised if Zahel showed up on Roshar just about the time Taravangian went to the Valley and Cultivation was able to create her pawn.

That would be interesting. But we know that Endowment is not interested in interfering in the conflict. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, KSub said:

That would be interesting. But we know that Endowment is not interested in interfering in the conflict. 

Endowment said that if Rayse became a problem he would be dealt with.

...

Looks like she dealt with him.

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Endowment said that if Rayse became a problem he would be dealt with.

...

Looks like she dealt with him.

Yes, we should not assume Shards that appears to be doing nothing are actually doing nothing, Cultivation and Endowment's Intents seems more made to give the other the ability to solve an issue than to directly solve that issue, and with this kind of power people assuming you're not interfering is a huge advantage