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5th ideal and CS


Bejarden

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Ok so we know that when Eshonai died she sticks around as a cognitive shadow for about as long as a mistborn ( minutes not seconds)

that was with her only saying the first ideal

this got me to thinking... what would happen to a windrunner ( or any order) that sayed the 5th ideal then immediately died.

How long would they stick  around for... days, weeks, years ... forever? 

thoughts?

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Many Fifth Ideal Radiants have died. We haven't seen any of their Cognitive Shadows sticking around.
So it could be true, but seems unlikely.

Oh, you are saying that this is immediately after swearing the Ideal? Well, given that Eshonai never swore the First audibly I'd say you're going out on a limb to say that she got to stick around because she had sworn an Ideal seconds before.

Edited by extremepayne
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1 hour ago, extremepayne said:

Well, given that Eshonai never swore the First audibly I'd say you're going out on a limb to say that she got to stick around because she had sworn an Ideal seconds before.

Stormfather said he accepted her Ideal, though:

RoW ch. 117, Stormfather to Eshonai:

Quote

YOU WERE RADIANT WHEN YOU DIED. YOU COULDN’T SAY THE WORDS, UNDER THE WATER, BUT I ACCEPTED THEM ANYWAY. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU SURVIVED THAT LONG WITHOUT BREATHING?

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10 hours ago, extremepayne said:

Many Fifth Ideal Radiants have died. We haven't seen any of their Cognitive Shadows sticking around.
So it could be true, but seems unlikely.

Oh, you are saying that this is immediately after swearing the Ideal? Well, given that Eshonai never swore the First audibly I'd say you're going out on a limb to say that she got to stick around because she had sworn an Ideal seconds before.

Most Cognitive Shadows actively decide to pass to the Beyond, like Rashek did.

Also I think we have seen Cognitive Shadows stick around

Quote

“So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise. It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.”

WoR chapter 59

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Right, I see. I think that the Stormfather artificially expanded Eshonai's postmortal existence past its normal level to allow her the entire ride on the storm. As in, she would have left much quicker, had he not shown her mercy. The best indication of how long Radiants stick around is Teft, IMO, with his talking to Kaladin right before Kaladin's Fourth occurring a minute or so after his death. And its a really short time, actually, as Kaladin runs to the top of Urithiru with superspeed, jumps, and hasn't even hit the ground by the time Teft speaks to him.

On a more meta level, being able to create a CShadow with simple magical effects seems a bit silly. The CShadows we've seen (excluding the Shades, b/c those are weird) have all been the result of direct Shardic intervention. Preservation giving Kelsier what he needed to survive, Endowment prolonging the life of the Returned, and of course Odium and Honor elevating the Fused and Heralds. It doesn't seem like something you should be able to achieve with regular means.

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5 hours ago, extremepayne said:

Right, I see. I think that the Stormfather artificially expanded Eshonai's postmortal existence past its normal level to allow her the entire ride on the storm. As in, she would have left much quicker, had he not shown her mercy. The best indication of how long Radiants stick around is Teft, IMO, with his talking to Kaladin right before Kaladin's Fourth occurring a minute or so after his death. And its a really short time, actually, as Kaladin runs to the top of Urithiru with superspeed, jumps, and hasn't even hit the ground by the time Teft speaks to him.

On a more meta level, being able to create a CShadow with simple magical effects seems a bit silly. The CShadows we've seen (excluding the Shades, b/c those are weird) have all been the result of direct Shardic intervention. Preservation giving Kelsier what he needed to survive, Endowment prolonging the life of the Returned, and of course Odium and Honor elevating the Fused and Heralds. It doesn't seem like something you should be able to achieve with regular means.

Kell’s was actually due to the Well. Preservation just gave him a - completely literal - push.

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20 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell’s was actually due to the Well. Preservation just gave him a - completely literal - push.

Right, he got a hold of the Well, which, while not Shardic intervention, was very much not an Invested Art either. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Leras say like "Okay, Kelsier. Be Preserved" or smth, implying that he had some sort of active role in Kelsier's Preservation? Could be misremembering tho.

Edit: Can't seem to quote Benjardin in this edit, but don't want to double post. Yes, I specifically said excluding the Shades, because we understand almost nothing about how those come to be, they are clearly the exception and not the rule, and it would be silly to try and extrapolate from our extremely limited information on how those CShadows operate.

Edited by extremepayne
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3 minutes ago, extremepayne said:

 

Edit: Can't seem to quote Benjardin in this edit, but don't want to double post. Yes, I specifically said excluding the Shades, because we understand almost nothing about how those come to be, they are clearly the exception and not the rule, and it would be silly to try and extrapolate from our extremely limited information on how those CShadows operate.

Sorry missed that

Nahz also mentioned there “are rights to becoming a CS” or something 

I doubt you need to contact a shard b/c then kelsier would have needed to do something to have preservation help him

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6 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I doubt you need to contact a shard b/c then kelsier would have needed to do something to have preservation help him

I didn't say contact a Shard, I said direct Shardic intervention. Kelsier didn't need to do anything to have Preservation help him, the requirement was for Preservation to help him. Again, if anyone has the quote and can prove that Leras did not somehow intervene, please do so.

Actually, wasn't Kelsier enabled to persist not by the Well, which trapped him, but by virtue of being a Sliver? Again that is way beyond normal magical processes.

 

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19 minutes ago, extremepayne said:

Right, he got a hold of the Well, which, while not Shardic intervention, was very much not an Invested Art either. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Leras say like "Okay, Kelsier. Be Preserved" or smth, implying that he had some sort of active role in Kelsier's Preservation? Could be misremembering tho.

Edit: Can't seem to quote Benjardin in this edit, but don't want to double post. Yes, I specifically said excluding the Shades, because we understand almost nothing about how those come to be, they are clearly the exception and not the rule, and it would be silly to try and extrapolate from our extremely limited information on how those CShadows operate.

Preservation does say it, but Brandon clarified that it was the Well that was important, not Preservation.

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Anyone can become a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, anyone not killed by Nightblood does. However, only a select few are able to persist indefinitely, and so far those have all been Slivers or products of direct Shardic intervention. While maybe the Ideals scale a bit, I don't think you'd have Radiants sticking around for any longer than an hour on their own merits, much less all eternity. 

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2 hours ago, extremepayne said:

Anyone can become a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, anyone not killed by Nightblood does. However, only a select few are able to persist indefinitely, and so far those have all been Slivers or products of direct Shardic intervention. While maybe the Ideals scale a bit, I don't think you'd have Radiants sticking around for any longer than an hour on their own merits, much less all eternity. 

Kelsier was not direct Shardic intervention; anyone could have used the Well as he did. And we don’t know how the Threnodite ones work at all.

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier was not direct Shardic intervention; anyone could have used the Well as he did. And we don’t know how the Threnodite ones work at all.

He's a Sliver. I'm deliberately not including Shades since trying to extrapolate from them, as I said before, seems fruitless. They are def way different than the others.

Edited by extremepayne
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Just now, extremepayne said:

He's a Sliver. I'm deliberatly not including Shades since trying to extrapolate from them, as I said before, seems fruitless. They are def way different than the others.

He’s only a Sliver later on. He initially became a Shadow due to merging with the Well - and it’s possible this could have happened with the Pits. So it seems merging with concentrated Investiture, such as that of a Perpendicularity, will allow someone to become a Shadow without direct Shardic interference.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He’s only a Sliver later on. He initially became a Shadow due to merging with the Well - and it’s possible this could have happened with the Pits. So it seems merging with concentrated Investiture, such as that of a Perpendicularity, will allow someone to become a Shadow without direct Shardic interference.

The whole point of this is, all of these things, Well, Shards, wound on the Spiritual, are very exceptional. Fifth Ideal Radiants are mundane. From a meta perspective, it doesn't make much sense to mundanify the process of indefinite Cognitive Shadow-ness. The exact details of the exceptional circumstances aren't worth fighting over, the point is they are exceptional.

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1 minute ago, extremepayne said:

The whole point of this is, all of these things, Well, Shards, wound on the Spiritual, are very exceptional. Fifth Ideal Radiants are mundane. From a meta perspective, it doesn't make much sense to mundanify the process of indefinite Cognitive Shadow-ness. The exact details of the exceptional circumstances aren't worth fighting over, the point is they are exceptional.

Bondsmiths can create Perpendicularities though, as can Willshapers and Elsecallers. So that actually is important, because I suspect the first of those COULD create a Cognitive Shadow.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Bondsmiths can create Perpendicularities though, as can Willshapers and Elsecallers. So that actually is important, because I suspect the first of those COULD create a Cognitive Shadow.

Well, agree to disagree, but also my point still stands. Only Honor-Bondsmiths can perp-summon afawk, and Ishar and Dalinar are both very exceptional cases. Fifth Ideal Radiants in general are commonplace, relative to Shards, Slivers, wounds on the Spiritual, and... no that covers it since the Stormfather is a Sliver and that's what's going on with Dalinar.

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3 minutes ago, extremepayne said:

Well, agree to disagree, but also my point still stands. Only Honor-Bondsmiths can perp-summon afawk, and Ishar and Dalinar are both very exceptional cases. Fifth Ideal Radiants in general are commonplace, relative to Shards, Slivers, wounds on the Spiritual, and... no that covers it since the Stormfather is a Sliver and that's what's going on with Dalinar.

Ishar creates a Perpendicularity too. And Elsecallers and Willshapers and some Lightweavers (Shallan) can also create them. That’s how they transition to Shadesmar. The point is that direct Shardic intervention isn’t necessary; indirect may be, but there are probably other ways too.

Either way, 5th Ideal Radiance won’t allow someone to stick around.

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6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Ishar creates a Perpendicularity too. And Elsecallers and Willshapers and some Lightweavers (Shallan) can also create them. That’s how they transition to Shadesmar. The point is that direct Shardic intervention isn’t necessary; indirect may be, but there are probably other ways too.

Either way, 5th Ideal Radiance won’t allow someone to stick around.

Elsecallers' and Willshapers' Perpendicularities don't seem to create light (Jasnah's one in WoR didn't anyway). I don't think Lightweavers can create Perpendicularities, they can slip to Shadesmare but that's only mixing two realms while Perpendicularities are a zone where the three realms are mixed.

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2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Elsecallers' and Willshapers' Perpendicularities don't seem to create light (Jasnah's one in WoR didn't anyway). I don't think Lightweavers can create Perpendicularities, they can slip to Shadesmare but that's only mixing two realms while Perpendicularities are a zone where the three realms are mixed.

Shallan can travel between Realms, so that seems to be a bit more than just slipping into Shadesmar.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan can travel between Realms, so that seems to be a bit more than just slipping into Shadesmar.

We have nothing implying she can do anything that the Physical->Shadesmare travel, which is what I had called slipping into Shadesmar.

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33 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We have nothing implying she can do anything that the Physical->Shadesmare travel, which is what I had called slipping into Shadesmar.

She’s able to transition fully, which is a bit more than other Lightweavers seem to be able to manage. Admittedly, we don’t know if that’s unique to Shallan or not. Either way, it’s pretty far off topic from what it takes to make a Shadow.

Things that can make a Shadow:

Direct Shardic intervention: Returned, Heralds

Concentrated Investiture: Kelsier (previously)

Holding a Shard: Slivers in general, Tanavast and Kelsier specifically (as the rest chose to leave)

Merging with a Splinter: Tanavast did this, but we don’t know if it was necessary for him to remain or not.

Other: Threnodite Shades

It seems probable that a Bondsmith in the right place could anchor a Shadow.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Merging with a Splinter: Tanavast did this, but we don’t know if it was necessary for him to remain or not.

Pure tangent: I really like the idea of the Fused being this (even though it doesn't actually make sense timeline-wise, as the Eila Stele says Surgebinding was forbidden to them already):

  • Explains the reason the truespren have avoided bonding singers for seven millennia (hundreds to thousands killed to make the Fused last time they tried that) and why Leshwi was so surprised they were "forgiven"
  • Explains why the Fused have powers so similar to Radiant abilities (though idk why they'd only have one Surge)
  • Explains the name "Fused" (they aren't exactly "fused" with much in their default state, otherwise)
  • Explains why Odium was willing to create so many when he avoids Investing (they'd be mostly H+C Investiture at the start)
  • Explains why Odium hasn't made more (Honor + the Radiants probably prevented many Surgebinders from joining Odium)
  • Adds a reason to fear the Nahel bond itself without Honor's bounds even if Mishram gets freed and deadeyes are no longer a thing
  • I also just plain think it's a cool idea
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