Souls in metalminds?

[Gyirin]

Just had this thought recently. From what I know souls in Cosmere are made of Investiture and Investiture can be stored in nicrosil metalminds. So can someone's soul be stored in metalmind? And if the Feruchemist taps into it what would happen? 

[Quantus]

What a Soul is and what it's made of is highly debated In-world, and Branderson hasnt not been willing to weigh in to confirm any one theory. Cognitive Shadows can be made, but even those shadows disagree on whether they are the "original" or just a fossil-style imprint.  It's the old question of whether a Ghost is the original Soul or just an echo left behind when something "else" goes Beyond.  

Technically all Metalminds store Investiture, just different types (and there's supposedly some overlap), but as far as we know so far Nicrosil stores the ability to use different kinds of investiture, not necessarily all types and/or Investiture Structures (like a whole Spiritweb).  Ferucehmy stores and infuses the investiture that is flowing between the Realm to create/maintain the mortal person, but (as far as we've seen) it doesnt actually touch or alter the Spiritweb itself.  I think it's more or less the same reason you cant steal normal Breaths with Hemalurgy, because they are present on/in the Spiritweb.

Hemalurgy, on the other hand, can apparently do this all day long, and staple a Cognitive Shadow back onto a physical Body.  Not unlike (I suspect) how tone was used to hold the fraying Inquisitor Spritwebs.  But then. housing and splicing pieces of Spiritwebs are the core of Hemalurgy.  

 

[Gyirin]

37 minutes ago, Quantus said:

What a Soul is and what it's made of is highly debated In-world, and Branderson hasnt not been willing to weigh in to confirm any one theory. Cognitive Shadows can be made, but even those shadows disagree on whether they are the "original" or just a fossil-style imprint.  It's the old question of whether a Ghost is the original Soul or just an echo left behind when something "else" goes Beyond.  

Technically all Metalminds store Investiture, just different types (and there's supposedly some overlap), but as far as we know so far Nicrosil stores the ability to use different kinds of investiture, not necessarily all types and/or Investiture Structures (like a whole Spiritweb).  Ferucehmy stores and infuses the investiture that is flowing between the Realm to create/maintain the mortal person, but (as far as we've seen) it doesnt actually touch or alter the Spiritweb itself.  I think it's more or less the same reason you cant steal normal Breaths with Hemalurgy, because they are present on/in the Spiritweb.

Hemalurgy, on the other hand, can apparently do this all day long, and staple a Cognitive Shadow back onto a physical Body.  Not unlike (I suspect) how tone was used to hold the fraying Inquisitor Spritwebs.  But then. housing and splicing pieces of Spiritwebs are the core of Hemalurgy.  

 

This WoB says souls are made of Investiture though. Has this been changed?

 

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Just another guyn

If a Shard were to wield Nightblood more directly, like Odium's champion and Odium channeling his power through Nightblood, would we see a lot of world ending stuff from that?

Brandon Sanderson

That-- What you just described would work no differently from a Knight Radiant wielding Nightblood

Just another guyn

Okay. And that would be scary powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, they'd feed off the Investiture and eventually would either run out or be drawing it so quickly that it would dissolve the person's soul.

Just another guyn

So souls are made of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in the cosmere, souls are. So you'd have a little while, but eventually the person would just die and get eaten.

BYU Writing Class Wrap-up 2017 (April 25, 2017)

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Gyirin

[Quantus]

40 minutes ago, Gyirin said:

This WoB says souls are made of Investiture though. Has this been changed?

 

 

It hasnt changes persay, it's just a lot more complicated than that (and this might get into spoilers from outside of Mistborn, so Ill try to be vague where necessary). One of the Big Questions of the cosmere, and one that Branderson has said he wont clarify so the audience can decide for themselves, is what actually happens when you Die.  

One the one hand, Everything in the Cosmere is "made of Investiture" in the sense that the Space, Time, a person's body and mind and the whole Physical Realm all sort of Emanate from the Spiritual Realm, and Sentience itself arises from the presence and/or concentration of Investiture a creature/object has.  On the Other hand, everything I just said is just one In-world interpretation that is debated.

What they can observe in-world is that when a person dies in the Physical World, something like a ghost appears in the Cognitive Realm for a brief period of time before going Beyond, and if they have (or get) an infusion of Investiture in that window they will linger on longer (until the extra Power runs out).  But then, one of the more accomplished Scholars in world is also such a ghost-creature, and that character believes that the original Soul is long gone and what's left is just a fossil in the shape of a Person.  Could be valid science, could be depression...

The other important data point is that the Shards exist in all three Realms, most of the Investiture in existence resides in the Spiritual Realm, and they can tell when Investiture is "destroyed" it returns to the Spiritual Realm. But Dead Souls are Beyond them; they can catch a soul and Infuse it before it goes Beyond, but they cannot reach Beyond, return a Soul from it, or perceive anything that happens there.  

 

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Ward

When Harmony Ascends, he admits he doesn't have a good view of the Spiritual Realm. Does he develop a better one over time? And are there other Shards that already have a very good view of that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But it is still something that is hard to grok, so to speak, in-canon, *inaudible*, hard to understand. But he has a much better understanding, and the other Shards, some of them have a very good understanding. The thing is, the difference between the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond is not something that is immediately obvious.

Ward

So, the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. There are three Realms of existence. The Beyond, some would say... There are philosophers would would say, the Spiritual Realm and the Beyond are one, that the soul gets sucked into and joins the Investiture. That's the idea of the One. But, most people would say the Beyond is not...

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

 

EDIT:  There's "Dead" and "Mostly Dead".  Mostly Dead can be tested and interacted some with all the Magic, but Dead Dead is just a mystery to them as it is to us.  And Im sure peoples in-world opinions are just as much a mix of Science, philosophy, and/or religion as we see on Earth.  

 

 

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Lady Radagu

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu

Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson

So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

  Edited February 12, 2021 by Quantus

[danex]

The key here is that there is a difference between your ‘Soul’ and your Spiritual Aspect.

Soul- Existence is debatable. Not related to investiture in any way. If the Beyond exists, these are what go there. Will always remain un-canonized. 

Spiritual Aspect- Also called your Spiritweb. Composed of Investiture and Connection. Resides in the Spiritual Realm. Very important with regards to all Realmatics. Hemalurgy, Investiture Healing, Shardblade wounds, Nahel Bonds, and almost any other type of magic is related to the Spiritweb. 
 

The most confusing thing is that the Spiritual Aspect is often referred to as someone’s ‘soul’ in-world and by Brandon in WoBs. 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, I think that the confusion is that both things (Spiritual Aspect and whatever-goes-Beyond) have been called "souls". The Emperor's Soul seems to go with soul = Spiritual Aspect (and not just for people, Forging involves 'souls' of objects...)

I think this is what the Nightblood WOB means - Nightblood would consume the Investiture making up its wielder's Spiritual Aspect.

[Gyirin]

9 hours ago, Dannex said:

The key here is that there is a difference between your ‘Soul’ and your Spiritual Aspect.

Soul- Existence is debatable. Not related to investiture in any way. If the Beyond exists, these are what go there. Will always remain un-canonized. 

Spiritual Aspect- Also called your Spiritweb. Composed of Investiture and Connection. Resides in the Spiritual Realm. Very important with regards to all Realmatics. Hemalurgy, Investiture Healing, Shardblade wounds, Nahel Bonds, and almost any other type of magic is related to the Spiritweb. 
 

The most confusing thing is that the Spiritual Aspect is often referred to as someone’s ‘soul’ in-world and by Brandon in WoBs. 

 

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I think that the confusion is that both things (Spiritual Aspect and whatever-goes-Beyond) have been called "souls". The Emperor's Soul seems to go with soul = Spiritual Aspect (and not just for people, Forging involves 'souls' of objects...)

I think this is what the Nightblood WOB means - Nightblood would consume the Investiture making up its wielder's Spiritual Aspect.

 

Thanks for clearing it up. Can Spiritweb/Spiritual Aspect be stored in metalmind then?

[danex]

19 minutes ago, Gyirin said:

Thanks for clearing it up. Can Spiritweb/Spiritual Aspect be stored in metalmind then?

To some extent, yeah, I think so. We already know metalminds can store Connection and Identity, and those are basically what Spiritwebs are made of.

[Honorless]

19 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I think that the confusion is that both things (Spiritual Aspect and whatever-goes-Beyond) have been called "souls". The Emperor's Soul seems to go with soul = Spiritual Aspect (and not just for people, Forging involves 'souls' of objects...)

I think this is what the Nightblood WOB means - Nightblood would consume the Investiture making up its wielder's Spiritual Aspect.

Nightblood consumes all three aspects actually, Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual (and it's why some people in-world believe Nightblood doesn't just kill a person but obliterates them, so they can't go to the Beyond), just like Shardblades cut on all three Realms. It's why a fully drawn Nightblood turns it's victims' bodies into black smoke.

 

The confusion in-world regarding which part is the soul: the Cognitive mind or the Spiritweb is part of the point, I think. The Cognitive part is what may become a Cognitive Shadow (but are they really the same person or Investiture copying that person?) or disappear/go into the Beyond, Spiritwebs linger on in the Spiritual Realm long after a person dies, as long as there is some Connection to them, it is them whose voices people in the Cosmere hear from beyond the grave.

 

Spiritwebs can be interacted with by various magics, from Spiritual Connection via the Surge of Adhesion available to Bondsmiths, via Hemalurgy, via Soulstamps, etc.

The Cognitive part can also be interacted with. We've gotten some hints towards that that's how mental powers like influencing emotions might work, though note this is not explicitly confirmed. Soulcasting also involves using the Cognitive aspect of people/objects. Magics from Yolen heavily made use of the Cognitive.

Since, storing Connection and Identity is possible, metalminds can store parts of the Spiritweb. Storing plain Investiture is also possible, but we don't know if you can just... store a person's entire Spiritweb or Cognitive aspect in a metalmind, seems kinda weird.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Honorless

[KSub]

I'm probably just going to restate what people have said.

The spiritual realm and spirit web are real things. The Beyond and souls are debated. Some characters think they are a thing and some of those characters think they are the same as the spiritual realm. The truth is left ambiguous. 

We do know that you can interact with the spiritual realm and spirit webs. So depending on your interpretation of a soul in the Cosmere, it's possible. I think most would argue that is not the case though. But to store that part of your spirit that is like a soul you would need aluminum and duralumin metalminds to store your identity and connection.

On a side note, I've always felt that the spiritual realm is between the physical and cognitive acting as a sort of conversion between the two.