Bondsmith Third Ideal Disappointment

[jamesbondsmith]

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

I totally agree that being better than who you were before is an important way to live. Having trained in karate for years, 'fall down seven times, stand up eight' is ingrained into me (and I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world can improve on who they are). But at the same time, it is entirely possible to strive for self improvement without acknowledging publicly what you are trying to be better than. I feel like it can be much harder to admit that you have done wrong than to swear not to do it again.

Dalinar could have regained his memories and worked to be a better man than the Blackthorn, but that isn't all he did. He wrote a book detailing everything he had done, for everyone to read and judge. 

For a real world example, say you make a mistake at work. Management put out a memo saying that this happened and why it was not the correct way to do things, but they are not sure who it is. You could easily say to yourself 'well I dodged a bullet there, I'll make sure not to do that again'. But you can (and arguably should) own up to the fact that you were the one to make the mistake and offer your services to fix it.

Ideally, the entirety of Dalinar's Third Ideal would be the baseline, but I was just a little disappointed that it went with the option that is potentially easier. When I think of emulating a Bondsmith, I think of both parts, but my thoughts go first to taking responsibility for my actions.

[Nellac]

2 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

I totally agree that being better than who you were before is an important way to live. Having trained in karate for years, 'fall down seven times, stand up eight' is ingrained into me (and I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world can improve on who they are). But at the same time, it is entirely possible to strive for self improvement without acknowledging publicly what you are trying to be better than. I feel like it can be much harder to admit that you have done wrong than to swear not to do it again.

Dalinar could have regained his memories and worked to be a better man than the Blackthorn, but that isn't all he did. He wrote a book detailing everything he had done, for everyone to read and judge. 

For a real world example, say you make a mistake at work. Management put out a memo saying that this happened and why it was not the correct way to do things, but they are not sure who it is. You could easily say to yourself 'well I dodged a bullet there, I'll make sure not to do that again'. But you can (and arguably should) own up to the fact that you were the one to make the mistake and offer your services to fix it.

Ideally, the entirety of Dalinar's Third Ideal would be the baseline, but I was just a little disappointed that it went with the option that is potentially easier. When I think of emulating a Bondsmith, I think of both parts, but my thoughts go first to taking responsibility for my actions.

I think you need to look at what Dalinar struggles with on a personal level. The history of the Blackthorn is fairly common knowledge in Alethkar, and even all over Roshar. He doesn't need to admit it to anyone because most people already know. At the time he says the third ideal he isn't struggling with doing the right thing, he's struggling with believing that he is and can continue to be a good man. I get what you're saying, and I agree that in general that is a better sounding ideal, but for Dalinar it is less important. It was more important for him to personally accept his shortcomings than to do so publicly. It also shows that he is more worried about his own morality than other people's perceptions of that morality.

[Honorless]

18 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

I totally agree that being better than who you were before is an important way to live. Having trained in karate for years, 'fall down seven times, stand up eight' is ingrained into me (and I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world can improve on who they are). But at the same time, it is entirely possible to strive for self improvement without acknowledging publicly what you are trying to be better than. I feel like it can be much harder to admit that you have done wrong than to swear not to do it again.

Dalinar could have regained his memories and worked to be a better man than the Blackthorn, but that isn't all he did. He wrote a book detailing everything he had done, for everyone to read and judge. 

For a real world example, say you make a mistake at work. Management put out a memo saying that this happened and why it was not the correct way to do things, but they are not sure who it is. You could easily say to yourself 'well I dodged a bullet there, I'll make sure not to do that again'. But you can (and arguably should) own up to the fact that you were the one to make the mistake and offer your services to fix it.

Ideally, the entirety of Dalinar's Third Ideal would be the baseline, but I was just a little disappointed that it went with the option that is potentially easier. When I think of emulating a Bondsmith, I think of both parts, but my thoughts go first to taking responsibility for my actions.

I agree, self-improvement is a component of the oaths of all the Orders but as the Order with the most power and influence, their third Oath would've been better aimed towards responsible use of their authority, as the Order tending towards the theme of uniting people, this becomes very important to build mutual trust.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Honorless

[StanLemon]

An important thing to remember with Oaths is there is flexibility with the exact wording as long as the core tenant is observed. It's not just the words but the mentality behind them as well. For Dalinar, being better involves taking responsibility. I mean he wrote a book just to showcase that.

[Bejarden]

When he killed Evi he gave up

He became a drunk and abused his children 

he knew what he did wrong but he coudnt move forward 

[Quick Ben]

On 2/18/2021 at 2:47 AM, Bejardin1250 said:

When he killed Evi he gave up

He became a drunk and abused his children 

he knew what he did wrong but he coudnt move forward 

Whereas before he killed Evi.

He only treated Evi and his children with disdain ? 

[Could Be Fire]

On 2/9/2021 at 10:48 AM, jamesbondsmith said:

 

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

I totally agree that being better than who you were before is an important way to live. Having trained in karate for years, 'fall down seven times, stand up eight' is ingrained into me (and I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world can improve on who they are). But at the same time, it is entirely possible to strive for self improvement without acknowledging publicly what you are trying to be better than. I feel like it can be much harder to admit that you have done wrong than to swear not to do it again.

Dalinar could have regained his memories and worked to be a better man than the Blackthorn, but that isn't all he did. He wrote a book detailing everything he had done, for everyone to read and judge. 

 

For me there's a difference between 'taking responsibility' as in accepting blame and 'taking responsibility' as in working to make amends. Dalinar is accepting blame for what he's done, but I'd argue that he isn't truly trying to make amends it yet. I think it's a possibility that 'taking responsibility' in the latter sense is the 4th Oath, because, for me, it's where Dalinar is currently stalled on his personal growth.

The third Oath is him saying, just because I was a bad person in the past doesn't mean I can't try to be a good person today. It's his whole "sometimes a hypocrite is just a man in the process of change" deal. Dalinar is making massive strides in becoming a better person, part of that is acknowledging that he was a bad person in the past, that's why the in-Universe Oathbringer book is important. 

Dalinar's so focused on moving forward (and there are reasons for that, he does need to unite Roshar), but I think that it's currently at the cost of actually addressing the historical crimes and injustices he's been a part of. He publishes a novel detailing how he accidentally murdered his wife, but we never see him sit down and talk about it with his sons. Or more abstract, when he dismisses when Gwax mention of the Sunraiser's genocide against the Azish. Just saying, "hey the thing I did was wrong and I promise not to do it again" is important, but it's also more important to actually try to make up for whatever injustice was done. 

So I think the next biggest step for Dalinar would be to take responsibility and make amends, and that's why responsibility isn't in the third oath (it's in instead the fourth). I also think it would also blend well with Roshar's arc as a whole. Like at some point they're going to need to deal with the fact that Humans invaded the Singer's planet and eventually enslaved them while Singers committed genocide against the humans 10+ times; this isn't something that can be brushed over with 'did an oopsie, promise won't happen again' like Dalinar is doing with his wife's death. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Could Be Fire

[+Oltux72]

On 9.2.2021 at 7:48 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

Is anyone else a little disappointed that the core part of the Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths is 'if I must fall, I will rise again a better man' and not 'I will take responsibility for what I have done'?

He is a bondsmith, not a Skybreaker, Elsecaller, Truthwatcher or Dustbringer. His job is the bonds among people. His personal qualities matter as a shining example and a way to create pride and trust among his people, not as means in themselves. He hid that Adolin murdered Sadeas. And that is exactly what a Bondsmith is supposed to do. If it is unity versus justice, unity will win.

On 9.2.2021 at 7:48 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

For a real world example, say you make a mistake at work. Management put out a memo saying that this happened and why it was not the correct way to do things, but they are not sure who it is. You could easily say to yourself 'well I dodged a bullet there, I'll make sure not to do that again'. But you can (and arguably should) own up to the fact that you were the one to make the mistake and offer your services to fix it.

There are only three Bondsmiths and they take up leading roles. Dalinar is management. And he knows that you do not single out individuals, unless you need to fire them.

On 23.2.2021 at 10:04 PM, Quick Ben said:

Whereas before he killed Evi.

He only treated Evi and his children with disdain ? 

Evi was a failure. Now, she may not be to blame for that. She wasn't Alethi. But, to be blunt, she pretty much sucked at the role she had agreed to. She was a borderline pacifist, yet agreed to marry the Blackthorn. What did you expect? That is what is to be said objectively.

Yet he was her husband. It was his task to stand by her. He was not very good at that. But you need to realize that in order to do so, he would have to act subjectively. It means that his wife would be judged by other standards than other wives. Again a Bondsmith thing. Loyalty over justice. And responsibility ultimately requires justice.

[Quivil]

I think it's awesome that the third ideal is all about repenting and forgiving.